One of the many identities of "breeder" on the forum wrote:
" Could you tell us what the true definition of "Dudley" is? Is it a NBP yellow, or a liver nosed yellow?"

Dudley is an interesting term. It means different things to different people, which is why the AKC guideline for standards now asks that it NOT be used. The term came from a top-winning Bulldog in England back in 1877, Lord Dudley. Nobody today really knows what color his nose was - except it was NOT black. Some think he was a liver-pigmented dog and some say he had a completely pink nose like some Bull Terriers. Either one is possible. Red bulldogs were (and still are) allowed and there was no requirement for them to have black pigment at that time, so it is POSSIBLE that Dudley was a liver-gened dog with red or red/white coat and had the nose coloration we frequently see on liver/chocolate pigmented yellows in our breed. If this is true, then calling a liver-pigmented yellow/red/orange dog's nose "Dudley" would be correct. In the sporting group of dogs, it would include orange Brittanys, Clumber Spaniels, Vizsla, orange Spinone and quite a few of the other breeds that allow both "liver" and "orange" in the standard.

However... we do not know if that was Dudley's color. He may have been a black-pigmented dog with a white spotting at the nose that left it UNPIGMENTED. This is common in Bull Terriers and several of the other spotted "bully" breeds - including Bulldogs. The nose is left with NO pigment if there is a white "spot" in the area touching the nose. Sometimes it will just be part of the nose that is flesh colored and part of it will be the base color (black or brown). We also see this on English Setters and to varying degrees with any of the piebald or "parti color" breeds. In some of those, it is a serious fault or DQ - including Bulldogs! This same pigment interruption from spotting can be present on the eye rims as well.

Regardless of the real color of Lord Dudley, he would get the gate in a US show today. Both the liver color and a nose that is not completely black are a DQ for Bulldogs. Since we do not know his actual nose color - missing or liver - using the term "Dudley nose" is very confusing and should be avoided. In the spirit of communication, use accurate descriptions and refer to a liver or chocolate-pigmented nose when describing a Lab. I, personally, have never seen an unpigmented nose on a healthy Lab. We do not have a lot of facial white spotting in the breed and consequently would rarely have a truly unpigmented nose or eye rim. Now THAT could and should warrant a DQ... we want to discourage white spotting on the face since this is a "solid" colored breed.

Your second question is a yes or no, not a multiple choice the way it is worded. A liver-pigmented yellow and a NBP yellow are the SAME thing

Here are the 5 disqualifications in the lab standard.

Disqualifications

1. Any deviation from the height prescribed in the Standard.
2. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment.
3. Eye rims without pigment.
4. Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail.
5. Any other color or a combination of colors other than black, yellow or chocolate as described in the Standard.

According to this standard, they have separated the nose color and eye rim color into separate disqualifications. So, by this, any lab with a totally pink nose should be bumped out of the ring. Why would that not include a thoroughly pink winter nose?

Good question! If we are going to discriminate against the perfectly natural coloration of a liver-pigmented yellow, why would we allow a "pink" nose on an otherwise black pigmented yellow?? Perhaps the winter-nose fading is what should be discouraged as an "undesirable" trait as it might reveal a genetic propensity toward poor intensity of pigment. Hmmmmm - perhaps I need to consider that in my judging

The current AKC standard states the nose should be BLACK ON YELLOW DOGS and eye rims are BLACK IN YELLOW Labradors

Quoted from the current AKC Standard:
"The nose should be black on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment is a disqualification."

"Eye rims are black in black and yellow Labradors; and brown in chocolates. Eye rims without pigmentation is a disqualification."

Disqualifying faults do not keep an animal out of a breeding program. If they did, we would lose 55% of our dogs and 85% of our bitches for being below the wicket height!

Called and asked my vet about lady with pups. Not registered. Indeed a BYB. Selling all the chocolates keeping yellow with brown pigment for breeding.

I don't understand why the black noses on yellows fade, but the black noses on blacks do not. It was my understanding that a yellow dog is basically a black dog that does not express the black in the coat. If that is the case, I would expect the pigment in yellows to be consistent with pigment in blacks. I have seen many yellows with brownish black pigment yet I have never seen a black dog with this type of pigment.

The AKC may have abandoned the word Dudley for lack of concrete colour photo references, but the word remains well used in most British circles.

Although the British and FCI standards don't venture there, most breeders avoid producing liver-pointed yellows for aesthetic reasons and, now that we have the tools to select genetically, fewer are being born. The number of breeders and judges capable of assessing quality before zooming in on faults is fast dwindling. However, as long as some still exist, there should be no reason for eliminating liver-pointed yellows from a breeding program if they are otherwise from the top drawer. With selective breeding, this cosmetic fault can be eliminated in the first generation and gene testing will easily let us know if we have to keep it in mind further down the road.

As with chocolates, pigmentation can vary enormously in liver-pointed yellows: from dark brown with hazel eyes to a fleshy pink with headlight eyes. For me, that fleshy pink on the eye rims, lips and nose qualifies for "Dudley" (sorry Maureen) and I'm not about to try to justify that. Just like I'm not going to tell you the word is crisps (not chips) or that flavour is spelt with a "u"!!! To each his own... There seems to be little likelihood that Lord Dudley would have become a top winning champion with a severe case of vitiligo - but, then again, who knows?

I would take a guess about fading pignment with dogs nose is the same as it works for people eyes. The older people get the more there eye fad or skin lightens.maybe the lose of keratin? which hold color in humans for hair and eyes/skin.

I'm curious as to why black pigment in yellows fades (winter/snow nose) and yet it doesn't fade in black Labs. I mean I know the reason the nose fades in yellow, but why in yellows when it doesn't happen with blacks. Why would the pigmentation be passed on with this difference? Hope this isn't a silly question.

JP wrote:
[For me, that fleshy pink on the eye rims, lips and nose qualifies for "Dudley" (sorry Maureen) and I'm not about to try to justify that.]

I don't necessarily disagree with you - I just avoid the term "Dudley" because I don't know for sure and prefer something more descriptive. I certainly do NOT like that coloration myself, but it is not "unnatural" in our breed with both the chocolate and yellow recessives in play.

[There seems to be little likelihood that Lord Dudley would have become a top winning champion with a severe case of vitiligo]

But he may have had white spotting that prevented the pigment from forming on his nose. I have had ES with a pink spot on part of the nose and have seen a lot of Bull Terriers with mostly or fully pink (unpigmented) noses due to the white spotting on the face. We also get that with eye rims when there is a white spot that is touching the eye. Dudley may have been a very "white" marked dog - or not.
[- but, then again, who knows?] Yes.... my point exactly.

Do the noses of goldens fade???
I don't think I've ever noticed a golden with a winter nose. If not, I wonder what the genetic difference is.

Yes... they do. Some do not have intense pigment in the first place. There is a lot of "cosmetic" blackening of noses in show Goldens

There is a lot of "cosmetic" blackening of noses in show Labs, too!!

Shhhhhhhhhh

Maureen,I would like your imput. You mentioned about liver pigment.Could a yellow dog deeper in pigment color because of the parentage colors. Ex. yellow mom/dad/byc or byc/byc. Do these colors dilute Black or enhance black. Can you create a strong line up of dark colors creating a better pigment?

Well, sort of yes....but I can't answer you in ten words or less as it is a complex topic. I would be glad to reply privately to Prada and anyone else who would like to email me.I would hate to BORE all those complainers who shouldn't be reading my posts in the first place as they have no interest in new ideas.

Maureen please post. I would really want to know about this. Thanks

Let me know by email. Thanks for your comment. It is nice to know that some people are actually interested in the breed.

Maureen your post are always welcome on this forum. have learned alot from your experience and research. This is a public forum. These topics that are well discussed seperate real breeders from the just want to have fun breeders.Very scary for people to blow off excellent information.