I've bailed for a while now but find I am truly going to need to file for bankruptcy and move on. If anyone has ever needed to do this while they owned their dogs (I have 10), how did you handle listing/not listing the dogs. They specifically state "animals", you can only keep a certain dollar amount. Can you argue they are not "animals" but pets? Hide them? Eek, I don't know what to do.

Can you lease them to someone you TRUST? Or put some of them out on a co-own, with a contract that they come back to you , or you get a puppy back ??

Other than what was suggested above, I have nothing to add but wanted to say I'm very sorry to hear about your situation!

I am sorry this had to happen to you. Leasing and co-owning are the best ways for them to go somewhere to be taken care of and "hide" for a while. MAKE sure you know the people and trust them 100%. Good luck and I will be thinking pawsitive thoughts for you.

If you are thinking about bankruptcy, you may want to look into www.daveramsey.com for some good (free) advice on how to pull yourself back up. Many people think they are BK when there are other, perhaps less painful ways to get back on track. You can use that resource for answers and support along the way. It can help you understand what you can and cannot accomplish with BK. Maybe Dave can advise you on the dog question. Good luck.

I know you are sad, but try to see BK as what it is...a chance for a fresh start and a way to reorganize and take care of your family.
We considered it a few years back but got back on track without it...but I did do my research on the issue.
Assuming you do not have a thriving stud situation,or have more than the occasional litter like most, you do not have to worry about your dogs as a source of income if they are not something that adds to your tax declarations. As for valuations, BK looks at "quick sale" value and while YOU may feel your dogs are worth thousands, the reality is that adult dogs needing homes quickly are not worth much in a monetary sense. Then you look at the fact that I am sure some are spayed,some might have special needs,be difficult to place etc. Personally I would call them all pets and not declare any value at all UNLESS you have a litter or are expecting a litter during the process and I would avoid that for sure if you are able as that WOULD be something you would need to declare if you planned on selling them.
Lets face it, if you are like most here who breed occasionally and do not really do much stud service you spend much more in the upkeep of your dogs and they are a hobby and not a money making venture.
And while they might be worth a considerable amount if sold as breeding stock, I bet that is not something you would be doing anyhow so you would only be looking at pet value.

While it is important to follow bk rules to the letter and abide by the law, you must also be careful not to hurt yourself by overestimating the values of the things in your life. Nolo has some great legal books with forms and such and tells you how to get things like fees waived etc. The nolo book even gives some good advice on how to find an atty that is not a crook to help you through (be really careful there!) as well as how you can do things yourself saving even more money. Check out half.com for a good price on the book.
I wish you the best of luck and am sure that things will get better for you.
Annie

I believe bankruptcy to be the cowards way out of debt. Surely you can figure out a better solution for your self inflicted problems. If you don't pay your debts then the rest of us have to pay in the long run.

There are ways to avoid bankruptcy - find them!!!!! Down-size, take a 2nd job, find homes for the dogs (they are costing you $$$).

Good luck.

That was mean............ Not nice! Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Kicking someone while they are down is NOT nice! BAD BAD BAD!!!

While it may have been mean....as the saying goes...reality bites! However, not knowing the whole story...these people may have DONE everything suggested & then some and until you know that....please - a little common courtesy would be nice. Stick to the question asked pls. JMO

I'll say that the was completely uncalled for, that rude, statement! How do all of us pay for someones debts? People loose jobs, maybe there are medical bills they can't pay. It could happen to any one of us. Do you know how many time Donald Trump has declared BK He is fine, if he can do it then I would think the average person can do the same thing!
The economy isn't exactly wonderful right now!
My heart goes out to this poster and I hope you are able to keep ALL YOUR DOGS!!!!

Nice way to kick someone when they are down...you have no idea what they are dealing with. Some people get laid off with no notice, have horrible medical issues, deaths in the family. I wont get into the crooked lenders, predatory credit companies or the phony "debt consolidation" agencies some unsuspecting well meaning folks get sucked into while trying their best to pay what they owe in a respectable fashion but they certainly add to the troubles of some.
Why cant we all just assume the best about people on this forum and not jump to thinking they did or will do anything wrong. Is there anything wrong with assuming they are well meaning and will of course do their best to do whats right and just need a little support?
If I were on a financial site or some such, I might understand the harshness, but I am on a labby site and as such I like to think that everyone here is a kindred spirit of some sort, even though some are often not so nice, I delude myself and think that all here are basically good folks and I treat them as such....I feel for anything tough anyone is going through and only hope that people who have the guts...(or the need) to share personal stuff here in an attempt to find some sort of comfort are treated with a bit more kindness.
Like I said...I know I am deluding myself a bit.
Annie

Not mean. Factual.

My husband was in a bad situation years ago - owed about 1M. Did not file for bankruptcy. Paid off his debts. Slept on a warehouse floor, worked three jobs, lost his children, went thru "hell" but finally got back on his feet.

It can be done - one just has to try.

Breeder - Thank you for responding to that nasty remark.

I for one am really glad someone brought this subject up as I am currently going through the same agonizing thoughts.

After much research, attempting to pull out of the hole and not succeeding, BK is the only logical alternative. I have found a wonderful and compassionate attorney who has not made me feel much better.

old breeder - I don't know if you have noticed or not, but the economy has taken a nose dive. None of us "cowards" meant for this to happen, it just did. Have you also noticed the high unemployment? That makes it easy to get a second and third job, competing with new college graduates who are working at McDonalds because they cannot get a job in their field of study.

Sorry, not everyone can be perfect and just "get rid of the dogs because they cost $$".

Done being nasty.

Correction - I meant to say my attorney HAS made me feel better.

"How do all of us pay for someones debts?"

Taxes, interest rates, inflation and on and on.

Old breeder. You don't know what something is until you walk in that person's shoes.

I have never gone bankrupt but know enough people that have. Sure, some do it for the wrong reason as with anything but this case is not an easy way out. It took guts to post it I'm sure.

Give the OP break and go do something to make you a happier old breeder that can be helpful on this board instead.

That was a cruel statement. Shame on you!

I have never used the red faced, angry icon before but your words were mean. Get the facts before you make statements and walk a mile in the OP's shoes.

Very Very uncalled for - Some people have no choice.

Be supportive!

BK,
I agree with the suggestion of placing the dogs with trusted friends. Although you could probably use the money for them by placing them with friends you know they will be taken care of and possibility given back to you once you get on your feet.

I say find a way to down size also. Most places will let you pay a small amount on bills. Even health bills. Talk to places. Adviser say that is the last thing you should do. I find when we have a nice job we do throw money away. I do know from experience you can live off of so much less than you think you can. And be happy if you are happy anyway. I would find the dogs a nice home with alot of love. Start over later. JMHO

TO OLD BREEDER
Sorry to hear you wasted time,assets,and affected your family for debt problems. I find little virtue in the avenue you took. In today's world many companies ..and especially our banking friends now are either bailed out or write off their entire debts-trillons !!!!! All for the business mistakes they made. I think more individuals should take the Chapt. 7 filling. Have a guess on what the amount might be ? I'll bet it's less than 10% of corporate bankruptcy filed annually.
To the person worried about filling and their dogs-a good bankruptcy attorney will protect you.

Are we supposed to admire him for choosing to be so concerned about his financial situation and the stigma of BK that he "lost his children" ? I may be wrong in how I am reading this, but if he lost them due to having to work three jobs, how very very sad for his children. His greatest responsibility was to them don't you think? Surely that means also not amassing such debt, but assuming that life just took a sad twist for him, you would think that most parents would put having their kids close to them over their pride and inability to admit when they need a hand. before you jump all over me for putting him down because he wanted to take care of his responsibilities notice I said a "hand", not handout. BK doesnt always mean erasing your debts, CH 13 actually can pay all your debts while protecting your home and allowing you to consolidate and work out ways to pay over a period of time so that you DONT lose your kids or your mind.
Annie

What I find so sad is that BK is actually an acceptable biz strategy for investors to protect assets and profits while individuals are guilt ed and made to feel such shame.
Personally, if you want BK reform I say make it less viable for big biz and maybe they will try to do things right from the get go instead of using it as a way to divest themselves of their responsibilities to the people they would otherwise owe pensions and health benefits to. When they say "re-organization" THAT is what they are saying...lets get rid of all our debt to those who depend on us and who counted on us...fire a bunch of people... and we can start fresh making money for our stockholders.
And you want to give a person a tough time who is agonizing over how to keep it all together and do right by her dogs and the law in filing for personal BK? Wake up and smell the coffee.

And yes, I know I need to stop now, so sorry I got so riled up....I just see so many who are having a hard time right here in my middle class neighborhood full of nice homes and pretty yards with pools in the back. A place you wouldn't think it would be like this suddenly yard sales are everywhere and its not spring cleaning...three houses on my block had for sale signs for about a year and now they are gone and the grass is up to my waist as they are now abandoned. One lady was long retired maybe 70ish and her hubby died and in this market there was just no way anyone would buy her house for what she (they) owed..what did she do wrong? Should she go sleep on the floor somewhere? Maybe she did.....
Annie

I'm not offended by what you are saying and believe me I have been working on it the best I can. My income had been enough to support my needs and wants in the past 40 years. The industry I am in throughout the country, and especially the rural area I'm in are at a standstill if not negative and can't even get a job at Wal-Mart. I've had my house on the market for 6 months and a house that was worth 600,000 1-1/2 years ago, I can't give away for $389,000 which is my exact break even point. I need to move out of state to get work and feed my 2 teenagers. I'm not looking for an easy way out, I'm looking to survive. And yes, at one point I felt the same way you do.

Oh, and I love my dogs with all my heart and anything I can do to keep them I will but in the end, my family comes first and I will do what I need to. I've already placed a couple dogs and will place more if I need to, but will really try not to have to.

Thanks for all the advice and support. I'm doing this pro se as I can't afford the $1,500 attorney fee's and getting some help through the legal aid in our state.

I did a Chapter 7 a few years ago and I don't regret a thing! Sometimes we get over our heads and just need a fresh start. Mine was just mainly credit card debts. Flame me it you want, but do you ever notice how these companies actually set you up to fail? Once you get behind they continue to bombard you with outrageous fees month after month? God forbid one of your dogs gets sick and you spend thousands to save your dog and start getting behind on your credit card payments. It just starts to snow ball from there. Then the harassment starts, the phone calls, threatning letters, etc. It's like they want you to file for BK so they can write you off.

I filed a few years back, had all my debts discharged and kept my dogs (I had 6 at the time I think). I did most of the filing myself. It was pretty simple, though I think the laws have changed a bit now. Even today though, I have very little debt. Learned my lesson, by still week after week, am bombarded with yet more credit card offers! Go figure

It's not a big sin, but a piece of mind. And my credit rating now, 3 years later is back to fair bordering on good.

When my husband was facing financial disaster his wife moved out, taking the children and all household content. (she had a boy friend) She had promised to pitch in, work and help him survive. He fought thru it and isn't sorry that he fought the disaster.

When old enough the children saw thru the mother's actions and are close to him now.

I apologize for sounding preachy, but it seems that a bankruptcy attorney is in the business to help people file bankruptcy. If that is your aim, then that is the place to look. In fact, it may very well be the right thing for you to do. At the same time, go ahead and take a look into Dave Ramsey's website and his financial peace teachings (no, I have nothing to gain from that). Sure, he has books and stuff for sale, but you can do like lots of people and get his advice free and lots of free research of his teachings on the website www.daveramsey.com without it costing you a dime. I encourage you to give it a look for support before you file. It may be that you want to file anyway. In that case, he can help you recover from it afterward and become debt-free. For others on here, you can try the mortgage calculator to see how much you can save on mortgage interest by paying extra along the way or whatever. Best of luck. Virginia

Why even bother to list them? I filed 4 yrs ago and didn't list them.

Yep . . . you're casting judgement without knowing the full situation. For all you know this could be a person who has extraordinary medical bills due to an organ transplant and can't make all the bills because of poor health care coverage. Sorry, but unless you know someone's full situation don't sit here and cast judgement and commentary as you have done.

Anne~
You have no reason to apologize for your comments, and you are not alone in your thinking or observations of what is going on in our neighborhoods as of late. It is sad and scary. Everyday I am grateful for what I have as I see others around me struggling. My sister with four children unexpectedly lost her job due to downsizing and was unemployed for five months. She got caught up on all of her medical before it ran out becasue she knew she would not be able to afford personal insurance. My brother and sisters all pitched in in any way that we could to help carry the load, many in the same situation are not so lucky.

To the people who are standing on the sidelines with cruel and judgemental comments, be careful, and take stock, as no one knows what is planned for us in this life. A little compassion goes a long way.

I think with some states it is monitory too go to a credit counselor that will look at your debt then they will have to decide if you can pay min. amount due, what percent is permissible to pay to your debtors.
If they decide that you can't make it, then they certify that you need to declare BK. There is a Chapter 13, were you can keep your house and belongings and so on. If you have a good attorney, you can do this! If the dogs are not income, I don't think that they will have a problem with that. If the dogs are income you have to proved a certain amount of money was made on your last income tax. It can be workable too keep the dogs!

You are so right Maria...you just never know when it is going to be you or someone close to you that will find themselves in this situation.
my hubby often gripes that we dont have "extra" for this or that silly thing and I have to remind him that the bills are paid and we have groceries and well fed dogs and a happy child. We were lucky and he chose to become a nurse at an opportune time, otherwise who knows how tough things might be right now. We are far from well off that is for sure,clip coupons, turn up the thermostat,and look forward to having the car paid off this year and having NO car payment:)... we are holding our own and I am able to donate each week to St. Vincent De Paul even if it is just a bit of grocery stuff or children's clothes.
I suppose my point is...but for the grace of God go I.
I hope ALL of you are well and stay afloat in this tough economy by not only taking care of yourself, but by offering support and what little extra you may be able to afford to others, even if it is just a place to vent and get it all out:)
Annie

Well then, in that case he certainly shouldn't be sorry.
I can relate...my mom had acquired boyfriend as well when I was just a little one and my dad suffered the loss of our home and all that was in it...only difference was that he took us with HIM:) We didn't have much for some time but I will always adore my dad for his devotion to us ( little brother and I) Sorry your husband lost the time with his kids and its nice they got back together.
Annie

Glad I clarified my name as "the sage" so no one thought you were me. I am not that insensative.

Give them a break, these are hard times

agreed! I'm taking "old breeder" off my name, so people don't think I'm you, for now on I am just "the sage!"

Since we are talking about filing for bankruptcy here, I am assuming money for even legal counsel is an issue for you. That being said, not even the most well meaning posters here on the Forum are going to be able to give you the advice you truly need, which of necessity will be legal in nature. To find out what you absolutely need to know, you are going to have to sit down with an attorney in confidence, explain your entire financial circumstances and then let him or her advise you as to the best way to proceed.

My suggestion is to go to your phone book, find the number for your local Legal Aid Society, and give them a call. If you meet their financial guidelines (which if you must file for bankruptcy, I am sure you do), they will set up an appointment for you to come in and discuss all your property issues, including your dogs. Absent finding a number for the Legal Aide Society, contact your local County or State Bar Association, and explain you situation. They should be able to put you in touch with either Legal Aid or some attorney who will be willing to work out a payment schedule for you to use their services, to represent you in the bankruptcy proceeding.

I wish you the best of luck in working through this difficult time.

/s/ The Devil's Advocate

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I've bailed for a while now but find I am truly going to need to file for bankruptcy and move on. If anyone has ever needed to do this while they owned their dogs (I have 10), how did you handle listing/not listing the dogs. They specifically state "animals", you can only keep a certain dollar amount. Can you argue they are not "animals" but pets? Hide them? Eek, I don't know what to do.

Sorry I missed your very last post, where you said Legal Aid in your state would give you "some help". I realize that Legal Aid organizations vary from state to state, but usually when you meet their guidelines, they represent you completely in the process, and not just "some". They can be understaffed, but I would still keep returning to your Legal Aid attorney with any questions that arise along the way during the bankruptcy process. He or she may not have the time to keep constant tabs on you and how you are doing, but if you reach out to them, they will usually get back to you with an answer. Once again, best of luck in your situation.

/s/The Devil's Advocate

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Since we are talking about filing for bankruptcy here, I am assuming money for even legal counsel is an issue for you. That being said, not even the most well meaning posters here on the Forum are going to be able to give you the advice you truly need, which of necessity will be legal in nature. To find out what you absolutely need to know, you are going to have to sit down with an attorney in confidence, explain your entire financial circumstances and then let him or her advise you as to the best way to proceed.

My suggestion is to go to your phone book, find the number for your local Legal Aid Society, and give them a call. If you meet their financial guidelines (which if you must file for bankruptcy, I am sure you do), they will set up an appointment for you to come in and discuss all your property issues, including your dogs. Absent finding a number for the Legal Aide Society, contact your local County or State Bar Association, and explain you situation. They should be able to put you in touch with either Legal Aid or some attorney who will be willing to work out a payment schedule for you to use their services, to represent you in the bankruptcy proceeding.

I wish you the best of luck in working through this difficult time.

/s/ The Devil's Advocate

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I've bailed for a while now but find I am truly going to need to file for bankruptcy and move on. If anyone has ever needed to do this while they owned their dogs (I have 10), how did you handle listing/not listing the dogs. They specifically state "animals", you can only keep a certain dollar amount. Can you argue they are not "animals" but pets? Hide them? Eek, I don't know what to do.

Anne,

I have read each and everyone of your posts and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being one of the KINDEST people on this forum! When the OP first posted this I said to myself gosh I am not alone and started to cry. OP, I feel your pain and I commend you for having the guts to come on here seeking advise and maybe even a little comfort. I have been thinking about it myself but didn't have the courage to do so. This has been the most difficult thing I have had to deal with in my life thus far. My husband and I have been deciding what we should do and have spoken to an attorney. To "old breeder" I can tell you I am not taking the easy way out. I have sent more resumes out then I can count! The last job interview I was on had 300 applicants trying for that one position! So guess what thinking that all us "cowards" have to do is go out and get another job isn't as easy as it sounds. You try competing with 300 people for a job and then tell me how easy it is. People don't realize how bad things are until it comes knocking at your front door. I never thought in a million years I would be where I am at right know....never! But guess what bad things do happen to good people. After crying so much I thought my eyes would swell shut. I picked myself up and looked at my husband and said I love you and we will be okay! So Op hang in there and please know you're NOT alone. I have had to say good bye to 3 dogs I love with all of my heart, but I know they will be loved and taken care of and I know I am not a bad person for having to let go. Best of luck to you and try not to be too hard on yourself. Take good care.

Ok..here is a link to the ABA pro bono services.
http://www.abanet.org/legalservices/probono/directory/programlinks.html
There is a state by state listing for you.


While you can always use a good atty to advise you, please be careful, like someone else said, they are in the biz of filing BKs and dont always have your best interests at heart.
Sad to say it, but some people really do look to take advantage of others misery.

I am a non judgmental sort and like very much to be of help with research and would be happy to help you...even anon if you want to set yourself up a little web addy and chat with me.
At least you should get all the facts and info from some unbiased sources before you go talk to an atty so you know if they are on your side or not.
Annie

hats off to you Annie

You know why I try so hard to be nice?
I can afford to be:) After all it doesn't cost me anything!!
HA....no but really, wanna know the real reason?
Well I will tell you anyhow.
A few years back I had what I can only refer to as a life shaking experience...life as I knew it was never going to be the same and the strong person I thought I was had left the building.
I was feeling weak and in a moment that I gave little thought to I shared a little bit about my situation with some of you labby folks who were around back then. A couple in particular, lets just call them Mrs. T and Mrs. B I really owe.
There were some others as well who have since become very special to me, and all of them took it upon themselves to just be kind to me when they had no real reason to do so. It made a difference to me.
They all said the same thing...pick yourself up and go on, this will pass. It did...and they helped me believe that it would and I have no doubt that my being able to believe is part of what allowed things to get better.
Many talk about how we come here to learn about labs and such and sometimes chastise others for going off topic...yes, this is the place to learn and share about labs, to pat people on the back and to ask questions, but isnt it really just a little more to some? isnt it a way to actually connect with people and do more than just post one line comments that are sometimes snarky and rude?
It is to me.
People talk about this forum at times as a place where people can be pretty mean, and sometimes they are right, and sometimes I think, why post here at all, and then out of the blue, someone writes me an email just to chat about something posted and we strike up a friendship and I think about how I can handle the nasties since I get that stuff out of all this.

Both this forum and Woodhaven are places where I go to actually try to feel a part of the lives of others who I might just have a bit in common with and if along the way I can pay back a bit I will be happy, and the truth is, I feel like I get so much more than I could ever give through a few kind words.
I get visits from people here and there ,one of the nice things of being in Florida is that many come down here for vacations and such:) I even have a really neat trip to Disney coming up soon with a great lady (It will be our second together)and her daughter that came about by a post one day, so take the time to be kind, you never know where those few kind words might lead you!

Annie

Just now reading this thread and I'm shocked at the response from "old breeder"

old breeder - would you consider all of the following "cowards". According to your post, you would have to, because they all filed bankruptcy at some point in their life.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - be careful of what situations and whom you judge - those could be your shoes you're walking in some day.

The list:
Abraham Lincoln - filed bankruptcy in 1833

Rembrandt Haremenszoon Van Rijn, 1606-1669, the famous Dutch painter, accumulated more debts than he could repay and filed for bankruptcy at the age of 50 in 1656

Phineas Taylor Barnum, 1810-1891, the greatest American showman, filed for bankruptcy in 1871

Mark Twain, (Samuel Langhorne Clemens), 1835-1910, pre-eminent American author, filed for bankruptcy in 1894

Henry John Heinz, 1844-1919, condiment manufacturer, started his company in 1869 selling horseradish, pickles, sauerkraut and vinegar. In 1875 the company filed for bankruptcy.

Milton Snavely Hershey, 1857-1945, founder of Hershey's chocolate, started four candy companies that failed and filed bankruptcy

Henry Ford, 1863-1947, automobile manufacturer, first two automobile manufacturing companies failed. The first company filed for bankruptcy and the second ended because of a disagreement with his business partner

Walt Disney, 1901-1966, cartoon creator, filed for bankruptcy in 1920 after his main client of his new business filed bankruptcy

The true measure of a person is not how or even how often they fail - it is how they overcome the failure.

Op - hang in there. I hope you get some good advice and get through this very difficult time.