I finally decided I couldn’t take not saying anything about 2 subjects that I have seen on the forum. So here goes…

First, I want everyone to look at the “Christmas” puppy syndrome from another’s point of view. What is the matter with someone surprising another loved one with a spectacular present such as a Labrador? What says they are not any less of a “good” home than the families you sell puppies to in an off holiday month such as March, August, etc? Shouldn’t we all be screening each of our prospective family homes the exact same way when someone calls or visits? I know we sure do. What happens when you whelp a litter in late October/early November? Do you hold on to them until they are 10-12 weeks and sell them in January to the same home? Have you considered the damage you have done by keeping them all until 10-12 weeks?

I, for one, am the perfect example of the owner of a “puppy” present. My parents bought me an Irish Setter puppy for an 8th grade graduation present. Yes, a P-R-E-S-E-N-T! It has been the most tremendous gift I have ever received in my life. Not only will I remember Brandy (Yes, that was his name!) my entire life and the memories we shared, but he started, what is now, a 39 year journey in the world of dogs. Every time I hear someone moan and complain about a breeder selling a “Christmas” puppy I want to sit them down and give them my lecture and perspective. I think about how many treasured friendships I would have never had if my parents wouldn’t have bought me the “dreaded” puppy” present. I think about the wonderful wife and fantastic children I wouldn’t have as well given it was dogs that brought Kim and I together.

I guess what I am trying to say is … We really have no idea what ends up happening to each and ever one of the puppies we place in pet homes, whether it is a gift or just a purchase. Do you really think these people don’t think of the hard work and dedication it is going to take? Let’s get real here … There are those people that don’t consider the effort when it is not Christmas present. Besides, if any family ends up either not being able to care for a puppy/dog you have bred shouldn’t you be responsible and take it back? I know we do. We have a clause in our sale agreement for first right of refusal. While not full-proof, we hope our buyers, that we have met and screened, would honor it.

So my last statement above leads me to my other concern with what I see time and time again. Oh no here comes another movie or book with a Labrador in it so we are going to get a drove of idiots wanting our dogs. I love when 101 Dalmations gets referenced or the Taco Bell Chihuahua. Followed by … Do you know how many dogs are in the shelters??? Have any of you been to a shelter lately? There are more mixed breeds than pure-bred dogs in shelters. Always has been and most likely always will be. Just because there is the new book or movie doesn’t mean that “we” need to breed to the demand. If respectable, shouldn’t you be breeding to better the dog you strive for in your breeding program? Again, there are always going to be those backyard breeders that attempt to breed for money. And there are always going to be those families that think they are going to get a good deal by buying a puppy out of the newspaper for $350. We all know what they are headed for in the end; don’t we! I don’t know about you, but in today’s economy, we are not getting the phone calls for pups like we used to. I had to reach out to my fellow friends to send referrals this last litter as the phone was just not ringing. Without those phone calls and prospective buyers this hobby just got a lot more expensive than it already is. I guess what I am trying to say is… Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Be thankful that we have different vehicles that highlight are breed; even if it is a crazy dog like Marley. Because when it comes right down to it we all have the choice of selling that pup or turning the family away.

In closing, I would like to wish each and every one of you a happy holiday. I hope you get that special gift under your tree.

Best,
Michael

Wow you took a lot of time to right that, Michael, so you deserve a response.

First of all, I've never been against Christmas pups IF they are planned well in advance, (not, like they call me 2 days before Xmas), because usually families take, like, 2 weeks off, totally devoted to the new puppy...IF this were not the case, I'd know, as I interview my clients well.

I disagree with the phone not ringing, so far, it seems that the "pet industry" is recession proof (somewhat, you always have someone looking for a dog, but the pet "items" industry has taken a hit). I've gone through 9/11 and other times I thought inquires would go down...but it did not happen. Its just that it is harder to find your audience for some breeders, it takes savvy internet placement. If you only have one or two litters a year, why spend the extra $$$ for a fancy website, internet advertising, etc...you don't need it.

Second of all, I agree that the frenzy over "oh no, Marley Movie" is just getting plain OLD on this forum lately.

Merry Christmas to you all!

Thanks for your rational perspective Michael.

I, for one have been worrying about my upcoming 2 litters which I have never done before (at the same time in the same year). They are due on the same day of all things. One litter is all black and the other is all yellow. Of course the girl who looks to be having a boat load of pups will be presenting us with the ALL BLACK LITTER and of course, the only people on my long waiting list want yellow females !! haha

As far as the Marley and Me MOvie due out and how it will affect families coming out by the droves to adopt a puppy just like Marley isn't going to be the big problem some breeders are anticipating, at least I'm not getting that feeling in our region.

We were just at Costco last night where I promptly tossed the Children's book of " Bad Dog Marley " into our cart. I had long ago read the author's first book and fell in love with bad boy Marley and never dreamed they would come out with a movie, much less starring Jennifer Aniston and Owen Wilson. The Marley story has taken on a life of it's own over the years. If anything, I believe Marley's story will be a good education to families who are considering buying a cute little yellow " Marley puppy ".

I don't consider our dogs to be Marleys but I do give families the grand tour of our house and the back side of our home where the dogs have had a field day chewing on the siding over the years. I make sure that families understand the destruction these cute puppies are capeable of and how unruley they can be if you don't really work hard on obedience so they don't jump on you and so they don't pull when you take them on a walk. Heaven knows my dogs are not sterling examples of perfectly trained obedience dogs however, I hide nothing when folks come to visit our dogs so they get a very good idea of just what needs to go into training a new puppy if they are going to adopt one. Recently, I had this lawyer and his best friend, another lawyer come out to look at our dogs nd get on our waiting list for 2 yellow females. The one lawyer wanted to adopt 2 puppies from us so they wouldn't get lonely when they are away from home. I told him I would not sell anybody 2 puppies at the same time and I told him why. I don't think he believed that it would be such a big problem adopting 2 precious pups together UNTIL he came out to visit us and our dogs, running together, greeting everyone in groups of 2 and 3. They were not in our home but 10 minutes and the 2 guys blurted out, " Ok Joy, I know see what you were talking about and we definatley won't be adopting 2 pups at the same time." hahaha

It's our responsibility to give potential families a realistic view of what life will be with a new Labrador puppy in their life. Sure some of them are a dream but as much as we would all like to brag about how our dogs are not the "Marley Type", every now and then, I would bet we see a glimmer of a "Marley Puppy" in one of our litters every now and then. I'm not speaking of conformation but in personality and temperment.

I am also betting that some of Marley's behavior was created by his 2 inexperienced owners who probably did everything wrong in the " Raising a Labrador puppy" book. Some of Marley's anxiety issues is genetic but I believe Marley's bad boy image could have been prevented by early guidance and one on one training from a professional coming out to their home...kind of like Cesar Milan and what he has been able to do with crazy, out of control dogs.

This movie is going to be a very big success at the box office because of how dog owners relate to owning a dog like Marley. Not just Labrador owners but any breed of dog including mutts.

I agree with you for the most part however I don't understand how we are doing damaage to puppies by keeping them until 10 or 12 weeks. On the contrary, we are doing them a favour as long as we spend time with them.

As for dogs as presents, I don't think anyone would have a problem with parents surprising a child with a puppy. It would be completely different though if they weren't living in the same household as now nobody has committed to caring for that puppy and the actual owner of the puppy can not be screened. I think that is the problem most people have.

As for purebred dogs in shelters, have you worked in one? I have. We get far more dogs than we can ever adopt out, so when we get purebred dogs, we contact the corresponding breed rescue and they take them out. Talk to the rescues about dalmations and I think you might get a different perspective.

You are right in that if we continue to properly screen buyers and educate them, then things will be status quo for our puppies. There may be a few more people who need to impulse buy, but if they weren't going to impulse buy because of the movie, they would because of the yellow puppy in the toilet paper commercial, or the Taco Bell dog or whatever. These idiots will always be around and there will always be back yard breedes and pet stores who are willing to provide them with their impulse buy.

I've been on the giving and receiving end of all things mentioned above. Over the years, I have received a pup as a gift and have given a pup as a gift and have sold Christmas pups and received the photos of many happy faces Christmas morning when meeting their wonderful new addition. I've had no bad experiences in any of the above situations and it has been many years and all the pups are still loved family members. My first labs were 2 pups purchased together from a byb and hate to say but those two were hardier with less issues than any "well bred" lab that I have owned since with just a couple exceptions. As far as the distructivness of my labs; they've not been any more or less than any other breed I've owned over the years. Dogs will be dogs and no lab yet has eaten a mattress like my dane pup, from a pet shop, did. I like to think that the time and money I put into breeding healthier dogs make them superior, but in reality I don't think that's always the case and many happy, loved, healthy pups come from byb's and have been Christmas pups.

Quote from Northwest Breeder
"As for purebred dogs in shelters, have you worked in one? I have. We get far more dogs than we can ever adopt out, so when we get purebred dogs, we contact the corresponding breed rescue and they take them out. Talk to the rescues about dalmations and I think you might get a different perspective."

I agree, there are so many labs in rescue, go to a shelter or pound or rescue.
We did rescue and had rescued 360 labradors (some with papers and some with good pedigrees, pedigrees of dogs you would be amazed at),these were the lucky ones that had us to rescue them from either owner surrenders or shelter, pounds, even other breeders. So yes purebred/ well bred labradors /can end up in a pound, but the more there are, the more that cannot be saved.
The impact of the Dalmatian breed was that when people saw a cute puppy, they wanted it and then did not realize the breed needs, so breeders need to educate more, try to screen better,promote obedience training from an early age.
No one wants to see a LABRADOR DESTROYED, hundreds of DALMATIANS were after the first 101 DAL movie. When the second DAL movie came out the National Dalmatian Club of America( DKC) and Walt Disney worked together in promoting education about the breed and that these dogs are not for everyone.

Maybe we need to find out from the DKC on tips, as that breed already went through something we do not want our BREED to go through ever.
Just my thoughts.

When the Marley book first came out, people would see me with my CGC TDI Murph and many would ask if I had read the book. I didn't and still haven't. I think they assumed that because I had a yellow Lab that my life was chaotic and that my home was in shambles. I sort of resented this assumption as we have had little, if any, distruction of property that is not his, as well as many, many great times in various environments. When I saw the movie trailer with Marley hanging half out of the car I was sickened. The primary reason why I don't want to read the book is because Marley dies at the end. I spend enough time considering the inevitablity of this event with Murphy and how it will impact me that I don't want to read about it.

To Northwest Breeder...

I am still a believer in a puppy should depart on or near day 49. This may be old school, but I think it is the optimum time. It releases them from the hierarchy of the litter and enables them to start their necessary mental development.

I am glad you are getting calls, however, you must be the exception to the rule as I know of at least a couple of NW breeders that are having the same issues as the rest of the country. In fact, these breeders had couple older pups that were past 4 months that needed homes.

Michael I have to agree with you. Just because it is Christmas does not mean you can't screen for those who are purchasing a well thought out gift. However, I think the day after Christmas is a better day to actually get the puppy. Photos, puppy items and even a stuffed Lab would be better to go w/ all the chaos of Dec. 25th.
As for Marley & Me, I have read alot of what all the breeders have to say about it. I thought I would keep my 2 cents to myself, but since you shared I think I will too. Some people have said they didn't like the book, they hated that the Grogan’s did "everything wrong". That is not true. They did A LOT wrong, but if they did everything wrong Marley would have ended up in the pound and the family would have gone out and purchased another puppy. I thought it was wonderful they kept Marley all those years and just went with the mishaps of his life. I guess those breeders who condemned the Grogan’s were born top notch breeders and never made any mistakes in training or even were never first time dog owners. I was born into a dog family with multiple dogs. We had a Marley in black who was a great dog but we just didn't chanel his energy to the positive. He chewed thru a 2 inch oak door in one day. Crates? There were no crates in pet homes in those days. (I am not saying I am old)
I once got a 1 yr old yellow male Lab back from a family that bought him. They did no training past housebreaking. He was a Marley. When I see clips of Marley I think of "Buddy" and how he was so goofy even after he learned how to be a good boy. Yes, there will be alot more interest in yellow Labs. I just hope that is not the only color that the people want. I also hope the movie will help educate some and possibly the younger generation who are more likely to drag their parents to see it. The PSA John Grogan and AKC have out is good and I hope it is shown before the movie and not after so people actually see it. We will all just have to go w/ the flow and boost up the importance of education when we get puppy calls.
As for the economy and puppy sales, so far it is no where near like after 9-11 but then I was in NY and everything came to a halt and life just sat in limbo for quite a while there.

I have a pet peeve. I wish people would sign their names to their posts. How can you take some one seriously when they stay anonymous?

Michael, Thanks
Happy Holidays

Michael,I have heard of a few breeders now that insist puppies should be going to their new homes at or near the 49 day mark. I find that very interesting and am wondering if you have any literature to back up that way of thinking. I have let puppies go at seven weeks and have kept puppies for whatever reason until eleven weeks but have seen absolutely no difference in their development or behaviors either way. - sorry to hijack this thread, feel free to answer in a new thread if you prefer.

Oh no, calls have slowed down here too. I'm happy that I wasn't planning on breeding in 2009 anyway, great timing for me to ride out the storm. I don't think it's quite as bad out here as the east coast yet but we're not too far behind!!

I find that puppies have better social skills around other dogs and better bite inhibition if I keep them till 10 or 12 weeks, but I also work from home and have more time to take them out and socialize them. If I were working and had less time for them, they would go earlier as the puppy buyers would likely do a better job than I could.

The original book touting the 49 Day Rule was a book published in 1965 called Genetics & the Social Behavior of the Dog written by Scott & Fuller. Since then, other much more current studies have proven keeping puppies until the 10-12 week age is much better for the puppies and their future ability to socialize with people & other dogs.

I agree about the 49 day issue and we have not seen the calls and emails drop so bad in 15 years.

I sold all my entire last litter to repeat buyers so I was very lucky.

I have friends that have pups 4-6 months old and still waiting for a home. No matter how many breeder friends you have there is only so many in the spending pool.

I don't think M&M is going to change spending at all.

Try selling a black male..... I wasn't even getting calls or emails for yellow!

The economy is bad and as MS said this is going to make this hobby more expensive for us AND Vet fees keep going up. The tax rate is going up in California for Vet services!!!

Another look at the "49th day".

http://my.execpc.com/~crzy1ess/49daymyth.htm

But how many of us really could afford to hang on to an 8 puppy litter until they were 14 weeks old?

I think by 7-8 weeks they should be in their new home...they are very ready.

I could have easily sold at least one litter, closer to two, this holiday, I didn't have any , only because my bitch missed.
So now I will have two litters , same time , come Spring, which should be about the same time everyone gets their pink slip...
Yes, I can afford to feed and house them.

I guess a better way to say it would be "I can afford it too...but who really wants to afford it for 12 weeks or more".

Cheers

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Replying to:

I could have easily sold at least one litter, closer to two, this holiday, I didn't have any , only because my bitch missed.
So now I will have two litters , same time , come Spring, which should be about the same time everyone gets their pink slip...
Yes, I can afford to feed and house them.

To get the puppy you are after , it is worth it.

I was a firm believer in the 49 day theory. An experienced dog person with a ton of time to devote to the new pup would probably want the pup at 49 days old for all the reasons we old timers were taught (often by Richard Wolters). However, most families do not have the experience or the time to devote to a 7 week old baby. I let most pups go home at 8 - 9 weeks because that extra week or so makes a big difference. None of my pups ever go to families where no one is home all day, but if that were the case, I would probably wait the 10 - 12 weeks as a lot of people now recommend.

Very well said Michael! About time someone addressed this issue everyone seem so up in arms about.
My phone too used to be ringing off the hook for labs but not lately :{
Aloha,
jackie

I am glad this post sparked some healthy responses and different points of views. It just goes to show you we all have our own way of doing things that are best for each of us. No one way is better than the next. It is a common sentence I tell our puppy families about the books we recommend. "Take what you like from the book and use it if it feels right for you. If it doesn't feel right toss it to the side."

I should state that our pups depart between the 49th and 56th day and always on a Friday. In today's world, not everyone has the luxury of staying home to care for a puppy for 1 or 2 weeks. We send them home so they can adjust through a weekend.

I applaud those who can and will keep their pups for 10 to 12 weeks. Personally, I am tired of picking up poop for that long so I am more than happy to see them depart. Besides, I can then focus on attention training the babies I am keeping.

I hope the fat man in the red suit brings each and every one of you something magical this year! Even if it is just the wonderful feeling of the spirit of Christmas!

Best,
Michael