OK I am a little confused. I like the idea about the $200 non-refundable fee with the balance due prior to registering the litter. What I am unclear on is, how are 1-2 puppy litters handled?

Depending on the stud contract, if there are fewer puppies than what constitutes a "litter", usually the stud owner will sign the papers with no additional charge. You have to read the stud contract to find out or ask the stud owner. Some contracts call 2 a litter, some call 3 a litter.

Good question!
I like the $200 thing, and I personally also like the additional $200 per puppy up to a maximum of (insert your normal stud fee here, $800, $1000, whatever)
This way, if you get 3 pups, you pay a total of $600 and so forth!

You just have to be careful how everything in worded. We did the "pay the stud fee prior to registering the pups" thing. Well, I guess I was thinking that most litters are registered prior to 6 weeks. Nope, this person didn't register the litter until they were 6 months old. She had sold them and sent them on their way with the understanding that they would get their papers at some point. We now require 1/2 of the stud fee when the bitch is bred, and the remainder is due by the time the pups are 6 weeks old.

I would venture a guess that many stud dog owners would say that 1-2 puppies do not equal a litter. So, I'm assuming you would own nothing more than the service fee, and if you used the dog again, you would start all over with a service fee and final payment once you had a "litter".

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OK I am a little confused. I like the idea about the $200 non-refundable fee with the balance due prior to registering the litter. What I am unclear on is, how are 1-2 puppy litters handled?

No, it seems most stud dog owners consider 2 live puppies a litter and you then owe them the full stud fee, minus the service fee.

yes, I do the same. I consider two puppies a litter.

Actually I am getting turned off by accepting the service fee all together. The balance of the stud fee may get paid several months later, if at all.
Sometimes the puppies are several months old. Shipping costs and extender kits are sometimes never reimbursed to me, or we have to constantly send a reminder. It's really bad!!! I think I am going back to the full stud fee at the time of service.

We already did switch back to the traditional. Burned too many times by the service fee by people we thought were 'reputable'

What is wrong with some of you bitch owners who neglect to pay the stud dog owners or pay late ? You are ruining it for the rest of us honest and reliable bitch owners. I"ve been ordering chilled semen for some time now and I've never been late paying the stud dog owner if we do a service fee agreement. I pay in advance for the kits, boxes and extenders. I suggest you stud dog owners insist the bitch owners pay for all these things up front before sending semen. Ask the bitch owner for some stud dog owner references so they can check on your " Reliability" in paying remainder of stud fee in a timely fashion. Service fees are a wonderful way to go but you do need to do a " Credit Check " on all these bitch owners if you don't know them.

I have dealt with this both ways; in the case of the $200 service fee up front and no guarantee of pregnancy or live pups, i had no problem with it. It's clean, no worries of the stud dog or a breedable bitch not being available, etc. To me, the stud dog owner who charges this way is just making it very easy for the rest of us to use their boy. The first time I encountered this was when Penn was with the Hyspire gals, and it did not make sense to offer a repeat breeding to him because of his impending return home to John and Saudjie. I felt it was a creative way to have the cleanest "contract" available. I'm not sure I understand the criticism - maybe someone can enlighten me. Feel free to email me privately.

Simplicity is usually best. I would think most of us believe this to be true. It is just a simple process - pay for the stud service at the time service is provided.

It works very nicely. If some people find this process both onerous and non-manageable, I would think breeding might not be a sport/hobby/passion/business for you.

Simplicity works.

Breeder;
There isn't always time to be paid in advance. If it's a check it could take a week to arrive, and the check may bounce. Many, many times the semen is requested with one or two days advance notice, even a couple of hours notice. It's not always possible to be paid in advance for any of it. We shouldn't have to "hound" the bitch owner for the monies. It does happen alot. They neglect to pay you, and then they neglect to answer your emails, and the don't return your phone calls. I am not a collection agency.

What is considered a litter? The actual number of puppies born or the number that are viable? For example, 4 puppies born, 2 survive.

I consider 2 live pups a litter. So for one or no pups, the $200 is a done deal. The balance needs to be paid before I sign off on the litter registration. I like doing it this way from both sides. I have a couple of wasted stud fees out there now on dogs I have decided I do not want to use. With the service fee, there is no commitment to a particular dog in the future. To the stud dog owners who have been burned- Did you sign off on the litter before payment? Or, did the bitch owner forge your signature? Or, did they never register the litter?

It is not simple if I pay a stud fee up front and my bitch misses and I have to go back to that dog, that maybe I really don't want to use anymore.

I have heard numerous stories of bitch owners who are "owed" stud fees who have decided they will never collect them for one reason or another.

I appreciate the dog owners who let us use a "service" fee.

I am happy to sign contracts and pay with paypal if that helps.

Thank you.

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Simplicity is usually best. I would think most of us believe this to be true. It is just a simple process - pay for the stud service at the time service is provided.

It works very nicely. If some people find this process both onerous and non-manageable, I would think breeding might not be a sport/hobby/passion/business for you.

Simplicity works.

I understand that AKC can and will register a litter without the stud dog owner's signature if it's a dispute over money.

Not if it is in writing that the stud fee is to be paid in full before the litter can be registered. So, as long as you have a written stud contract, you can refuse the litter if you aren't paid.

Quote from the AKC "For the purpose of registering or refusing to register purebred dogs The American Kennel Club will recognize only such conditional sale or conditional stud agreements affecting the registration of purebred dogs as are in writing and are shown to have been brought to the attention of the applicant for registration. The American Kennel Club cannot recognize alleged conditional sale,
conditional stud or other agreements not in writing which affect the registration of purebred dogs, until after the existence, construction and/or effect of the same shall have been determined by an action at law."

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I understand that AKC can and will register a litter without the stud dog owner's signature if it's a dispute over money.

It depends on how you look at it and which side of the fence you are on " Yet another Stud owner " . There are ways around the bitch owners who call you up at the last moment with " I need semen asap " and you don't have time to wait for their check to clear..don't let them use your boy if they can't plan their breeding a little more in advance. With email, there is no reason you can't check out a bitch owner's references with other stud dog owners and they shouldn't be offended if you ask them for a couple. If they are, too bad.
I can't fathom why on earth bitch owners would purposely give a bad check or let time slide to the point the stud dog owner has to harass the bitch owner to be paid. It's the bitch owner's reputation on the line and if she wants to continue to use people's stud dogs, she better pay on time. With a click of " Send " her reputation will be out in the Labrador World for all to see.

I also like the deposit arrangement because if the bitch owner messes up on her end with progesterone, timing, or what have you, then it's on them. I would rather receive less money up front and not have an obligation to someone who may or may not know what they are doing. That seems more simple to me.

To those of you who collect the entire fee up front and then offer a repeat breeding, how many times will you repeat? Do you specify that in your contract?

I see it from both sides also. 2 live pups is a litter for most. I do this with my stud. Also, do the $200 up front. You pay for boxes and can use yours, pay for extender, pay for Fed ex up front. I do the same when I use a stud dog. Some ask for the remainder of stud fees as soon as the pups are a day or two old. That is fine with me. I have my litter, the stud dog owner needs her money. Simple as that. Why some do not send it right away is awful. They are making it bad for all of us. And how unfair. We jump and run to send the chilled and do our part. You have used our great boy, pay up ! and once again 2 live pups is a litter.

What can be done when a bitch owner is late paying or decides the 4 puppies (all male) is not what was wanted and refuses to pay or re-negotiates at that time.

simple is still best.

Tell us who she is so she never gets to use any of our stud dogs. Thats awful. What is wrong with people.

JMO said "It is not simple if I pay a stud fee up front and my bitch misses and I have to go back to that dog, that maybe I really don't want to use anymore. "

But then that's YOUR choice. The stud owner fullfilled their part of their responsibiity if they provided you with viable sperm. Its not the fault of the stud owner.

As for not using the same dog, well I see that as fickle. If you weren't sold on him in the first place, why contact the stud dog owner.

I guess the problem comes from being involved first with another breed, where if viable sperm is provided and your bitch doesn't get pregnant, you get nothing in return, and services must be paid upfront.

This topic has been cussed and discussed from most angles, so each person has to decide what works for each situation. There is no "best" way because we are all different with different goals.

I have always used the service fee method for studs I manage - for about 35 years now. I have never been stiffed for a stud fee because I have a written stud contract that states the litter registration application will not be signed before the entire stud fee balance is paid. AKC will honor that written agreement. I did have to wait over a year one time for the balance of the fee, but AKC got on the breeder's case for selling pups as AKC registered and not registering the litter. That official pressure cuts both ways if you follow their guidelines

Thinking back over the years, I am owed at least 4 stud services by various breeders that I paid for in advance and will never collect. One dog died, one was sold, one went sterile, one started producing pups with a specific health problem that we didn't know about when I selected him initially. When you pay a stud owner for service to a SPECIFIC dog and the repeat service promised can not be provided due to absence of the dog, why would that owner think that offering a service to ANOTHER dog in their possession is the same as a repeat service? That is precisely what the 3 above offered - not a refund of any part of the stud fee. The stud fee for the dog that I opted not to use again (and was darn glad had not produced a litter with problems for me) was just forfeit and I knew it. I certainly wish that breeder had only asked for a service fee up front, because nobody (including me) wanted to breed to the dog once his pups started to turn up with problems.

As breeders, we are expected to "stand behind" our pups - but there does not seem to be that same expectation that stud owners "stand behind" their dogs or their financial commitments. It is just one of the reasons I do not collect stud fees in advance and do not pay them in advance any more if possible. Dogs are living beings and nobody can guarantee what or where they will be in another 6 months. They may be dead, gone, ill, etc. Making a financial arrangement that specifies a dog will be available for a repeat breeding on some future date is not reasonable if you can not guarantee specific performance of that contract. If the entire stud fee is paid in advance, the contract should have a provision for reimbursement of all or part of that fee if there are no puppies .... NOT a repeat service that can not logically or legally be guaranteed.

That's my 2cents worth from the perspective of 40 years in dogs. People will do whatever they like based on who they are. Just a suggestion from an oldie - if you try negotiating and honoring contracts or stud agreements as if you were in the OTHER person's position, there would be a lot less acrimony and distrust between breeders

BTW... just one little comment on complaints that bitch owners do not pay expenses up front. Haven't you all heard of PayPal? Sure a check may take time, but PayPal is instantaneous - and it won't bounce!!!

I use the $200 service fee up front and guarantee 2 live pups or more as a litter. If only one pup is born, that's it, the bitch owner paid the service fee and I will sign off as the stud dog owner for the singleton.
In regards to paying for shipments, I request that all bitch owners that contact me open up a fedex or UPS account. It only takes a minute online and that way I can put the bitch owner's account number down for billing purposes. This has worked well for me and also, Fedex gives a 10% discount to folks that use this type of service if "booked" online.

WELL SAID, MAUREEN

I didn't realize that about AKC and contracts. I guess the only scenario where a stud dog owner could get burnt in a case like this is if the litter owner didn't register their pups.

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This topic has been cussed and discussed from most angles, so each person has to decide what works for each situation. There is no "best" way because we are all different with different goals.

I have always used the service fee method for studs I manage - for about 35 years now. I have never been stiffed for a stud fee because I have a written stud contract that states the litter registration application will not be signed before the entire stud fee balance is paid. AKC will honor that written agreement. I did have to wait over a year one time for the balance of the fee, but AKC got on the breeder's case for selling pups as AKC registered and not registering the litter. That official pressure cuts both ways if you follow their guidelines

Thinking back over the years, I am owed at least 4 stud services by various breeders that I paid for in advance and will never collect. One dog died, one was sold, one went sterile, one started producing pups with a specific health problem that we didn't know about when I selected him initially. When you pay a stud owner for service to a SPECIFIC dog and the repeat service promised can not be provided due to absence of the dog, why would that owner think that offering a service to ANOTHER dog in their possession is the same as a repeat service? That is precisely what the 3 above offered - not a refund of any part of the stud fee. The stud fee for the dog that I opted not to use again (and was darn glad had not produced a litter with problems for me) was just forfeit and I knew it. I certainly wish that breeder had only asked for a service fee up front, because nobody (including me) wanted to breed to the dog once his pups started to turn up with problems.

As breeders, we are expected to "stand behind" our pups - but there does not seem to be that same expectation that stud owners "stand behind" their dogs or their financial commitments. It is just one of the reasons I do not collect stud fees in advance and do not pay them in advance any more if possible. Dogs are living beings and nobody can guarantee what or where they will be in another 6 months. They may be dead, gone, ill, etc. Making a financial arrangement that specifies a dog will be available for a repeat breeding on some future date is not reasonable if you can not guarantee specific performance of that contract. If the entire stud fee is paid in advance, the contract should have a provision for reimbursement of all or part of that fee if there are no puppies .... NOT a repeat service that can not logically or legally be guaranteed.

That's my 2cents worth from the perspective of 40 years in dogs. People will do whatever they like based on who they are. Just a suggestion from an oldie - if you try negotiating and honoring contracts or stud agreements as if you were in the OTHER person's position, there would be a lot less acrimony and distrust between breeders

We have gone back to requiring full stud fee paid at the time of service - BEFORE any semen is shipped. We are tired and DONE with having to constantly send email reminders and phone calls for payments and checks for our stud fees. That's it, no more.
It's rude and so unprofessional! We are so glad not to deal with the service fee fiasco anymore!

And for those who do not pay or are very slow to pay, word does get out and get around about those with poor business practices! It might be hard to get the next bitch bred...

I AGREE 100%!!! Especially with the last sentence!!!
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"Simplicity is usually best. I would think most of us believe this to be true. It is just a simple process - pay for the stud service at the time service is provided.

It works very nicely. If some people find this process both onerous and non-manageable, I would think breeding might not be a sport/hobby/passion/business for you.

Simplicity works."

we have used the service fee on occasion with sucess, BUT it depends on who you are dealing with..
most services are paid before the bitch is bred, the same way i do when im using someone elses dog,, it is business and should be done as such,,, nothing will ruin a friendship faster than having money issues inbetween . our service is 3 live puppies,, and if paying by a service fee and there is only 2 or one i will sign the litter app,, LeeAnne

OK brd, how do you handle it when the semen arrives less than viable or Fed-Ex loses the shipment for a day or two, or three? The bitch owner is paying for a shipment of viable semen on time.

Our semen has always arrived on time and is viable.

I have been in this situation--both shipments of semen had terrible motility upon arrival, per my repro vet who maintains they were not packaged and shipped properly. Inseminated anyways, just in case, no puppies. Progesterone tests were run and we were right on the money timing wise. So now as a bitch owner, I'm out a whole lot of money (including my shipping costs which of course were my obligation no matter what, billed and paid for on my FedEx account).

Incidentally, this is a stud dog who is getting up in years. So, even if I get a re-breeding, do I really want to ship semen again when it's likely it won't ship well? The stud is located so far away that it wouldn't make sese to drive to him. The stud dog owner does not have any other boys that would work with any of my girls. This is where I would have much preferred a serive fee. Especially in this economy, it would have been nice to have not lost such a large chunk of money for naught. I realize this hobby is expensive, but as a bitch owner, it's not fair to us either to have to wholly pay for inferior goods

I know I'm not the only breeder who has unused stud fees floating out there.....

Marci, just curious why there would be a guarantee on the number of pups when you use a service fee.


Since the number of pups is determined by the bitch I think it is just a nice jesture on the stud owner's side to give a return service if only 2 pups.

You did not answer the question, what if it did not, would you refund or just allow a repeat?

I'm sorry but stud dogs infrequently have issues and Fed-Ex can encounter mechanical, weather, or human delays.....stuff happens. Maybe it has not happened to you but your number is coming up and I would not want to be on the receiving (or non receiving end)

I would think that any ethical breeder that has a stud dog would work that situation out as necessary should it come about. S*it happens and any reasonable person will adjust. Nothing is set in stone with me, even when I sell a puppy no matter what my contract might say. Stud dog owners can actually be accommodating. We certainly jump through hoops to get the semen out when needed. Big hoops! We want this to work out for the bitch owner as well.

We had a situation where my girl didn't get pregnant her first breeding via chilled AI shipment. We bred her to another dog and she got pregnant with a small litter. Her next heat I went back to the first stud dog owner to collect up on my repeat breeding but didin't want to necesarily ue the same stud dog I used before. The stud dog owner was nice enough to offer me to use any of their boys on any of my girls for my repeat breeding. I realize not all stud dog owners own an all star line up and only own one stud dog so repeat services are limited to bitch owners. My girl did get pregnant and we are awaiting her whelping !! I still prefer the $200 service fee contract but if I want to use a dog bad enough, I would pay the stud fee upfront or wait till I could afford it.

Like the few folks mentioned before; I have had too many experiences where well meaning bitch owners had either delayed payment or worse.

This is a bad deal for everyone. I like the simplicity idea and will be more simple in the future.

I do not speak about any other breeders behind their backs, so spreading the word (as indicated above) is most repulsive and is dangerous. Gossip is gossip is gossip - and it is all bad.

I will not speak of others in good or bad tones.

okay, what are bitch owners suppose to do?

Stud dog is getting on in years, semen arrives in poor quality or worse still, it was not packaged correctly and semen is dead, your bitch misses and you've spent a bucket of money on stud fee, 3 or 4 progesterone test, AI kits, FedX

I do not want to hear oh well, you can come back next time. In all likelyhood I will not give this stud and his owner another chance. In todays economic crisis I do not want stud fees sitting out there with little or no chance of my using that stud dog again.
And that old song of "well then maybe you shouldn't be breeding" is over used and not practical.

I will shop around for fair breeding terms and I am betting most bitch owners will do the same. Those stud owners can dig their heels in and not offer terms but I would be willing to bet that they will indeed see a HUGE drop off of people calling for their studs. - no matter what is anonymously written on this forum

And let's face it, most of our competive "Specialty" puppies are really coming from about 10 or so top stud dogs and you can bet almost all owners offer terms. If you not one receiving them most likely you are not known by the owner or have a questionable rep.

In all our years ALL the stud dog owners we have dealt with (we have used most of the well known boys over those years) have been a real pleasure and professional to work with. We either sent a check upon receipt of the semen or paid a "service fee" prior to shipping, either is OK. Once Fed-Ex had mechanical problems and arrived too late, we repeated and was not charged a service fee for that time.
We have also declined to work with a couple, mainly because the terms were just not acceptable, nothing to do with their boy. There are just too many choices out there for that, JMO.

If breeders choose not to abide by our terms, then they must not want to breed to our boys very much in the first place and it is usually a sign of how things will go in dealing with them anyway, so its just as well they move on. The bitch side expenses is not the stud owners fault. We do agree, if you cannot afford to do a breeding, you should wait until you do have all the funds to not expect the stud owner to wait for payment for their service for YOUR breeding. Semen is a commodity. We don't leave the grocery store with all of our groceries, only paying half the bill and get to come back two months later and pay the rest.
If and when a situation arises, it can be dealt with then. In the meantime, simplicity works best for all involved. If you want to blame someone, blame the bitch owners who have not paid stud fees or been late in paying and have to be hunted down, don't blame the stud dog owners. Please, its getting old.

Well said.
Since I am not living off my stud fees, feel free to go elsewhere if you don't like my terms. They are MY terms, and it's obviously your option not to use my boys because of it. No problem. Constantly whinning about it on here gets old. I have bitches too and just like you I have outstanding stud fees out there that I may never be able to use. Just because we are stud owners doesn't make us any different. If you want that particular boy, you do the terms. Simple.

As I said in an earlier post, if the terms are logical and reasonable, then I see no problem. I would not mind paying the stud fee up front IF the contract specified all but a service fee would be refunded if there are no puppies. I have no interest in a future performance contract. Period. They are unenforceable and unrealistic.

I don't mind paying for my groceries when I leave the store, but if they turn out to be "bad" or out of date when I get home, I want my money back, not a promise of some potential groceries in the future that may be a different brand

*I like the $200 thing, and I personally also like the additional $200 per puppy up to a maximum of (insert your normal stud fee here, $800, $1000, whatever) This way, if you get 3 pups, you pay a total of $600 and so forth!*

You (not you personally) get your three puppies that you paid $600 for and sell them for $1,500 each. The stud dog owner doesn't get what his dog actually warrants, the stud dog owner doesn't get paid sufficiently for the time, work and knowledge that they deserve and there's no telling why the bitch only had 3 puppies. She could have been the reason. It isn't always the stud dog. In my experience being a bitch owner, stud dog owners usually bend over backwards to service bitches regardless of how inconvenient it may be for them when a bitch calls. They are offering a dog that they think can help the breed; they want to get the job done. Yet, they have to depend on us to tell them when to send the semen, they have to depend on your vet who may not have enough experience, they have to depend on the airlines, and probably half a dozen other things in order to get our bitches bred. If I were a stud dog owner, I'd want the money up front.

Although when I go to the grocery store I leave with my product and if my milk is sour, they will replace it or give me a refund. Not a good comparison. I do think the service fee is fair all the way around and do think there are many stud owners that will work on those terms. In reality, the bitch owner is still the one out the most money if her girl does not take.

There is more that goes into a stud dog than just a stud fee. The cost of keeping a male healthy, fit, campaigned, available and free of all genetic defects is no drop in the bucket. You may run several on only to lose them by the time they are two years old. They can be here today and gone tomorrow so to speak. Lets also not forget a stud dog is under constant scrutiny to improve on every bitch brought to him regardless of her quality or lack of it, and if he doesn't he is solely to blame. It costs a small fortune to keep him available. If he gets a handful of stud fees a year he has paid for himself, thats it. A full stud fee up front is not out of the question for me. I require it, and I pay it out if it is required. Those that own boys understand.

Studly - I completely agree! Well said!

Shopper, don't be so analytical. You know what my point was --- there is no other services that you can get and only pay half for and eight weeks later pay the remaining due. Also, if your bitch doesn't take that is NOT the stud owners fault (you know if semen is viable when you receive it and before you AI)and maybe paying up front will ensure the breeding is done with every possible success. The stud owners want a litter too or else they wouldn't be breeding either.

"Also, if your bitch doesn't take that is NOT the stud owners fault "

Au Contraire. That is not entirely the case. How about the stud owner that bred two of my bitches about 3 weeks apart and THEN decided her stud dog was sterile. In addition, he was sterile due to some strange organism that he passed along to my two bitches. I FINALLY got them over it and got a litter nearly three years later. My stud fee was NOT returned!!! Why would I want a "repeat" to a sterile dog or ANY dog kept in the same housing with one that was sterile from a VD?? When it is clearly the dog's fault that the breeding didn't take, I really feel the ENTIRE stud fee should be returned - not even a service fee is due as there was no real "service". That experience helped to reinforce my opinion that stud contracts with either a service fee or refund (not repeat service) were the only reasonable ones to use.

"We already did switch back to the traditional. Burned too many times by the service fee by people we thought were 'reputable' "

Old and tired.,.. Can you say how that happens? ......don't know what you mean. You don't sign either way 'til payment in full is made rite? So how did you get burned?

Ah yes, I dealt with the same thing.
Still haven't gotten my bitch pregnant after using the stud dog with the "issue".
May never.

Oh yes, Maureen, I'm sure there is every possible situation you could list why a bitch wouldn't take. Can a boy be sterile? Uh, yah, no surprise there.
Reality is there are many successful breedings out there and stud owners need to be paid.
Those who offer the service fee, so be it. That is their personal choice. We choose full payment due upon service and on our terms, it has never been an issue with any
reputable breeder. Have a great holiday season everyone!

"Reality is there are many successful breedings out there and stud owners need to be paid.
Those who offer the service fee, so be it. That is their personal choice. We choose full payment due upon service and on our terms, it has never been an issue"

I have no issue with advance stud fees - as long as there is a refund instead of repeat service in the terms. If those are not your terms, I would have to pass. Your choice of terms... my choice of how and where I spend my money

LOL - I think many of us would not be too hurt if you didn't breed to our stud dogs!

You know, that was uncalled for!
Why does one idiot have to always ruin a good thread???
Every blessed time!!

As long as bitch owners agree to pay for a "return service", stud dog owners will be able to charge that if that is what they are comfortable with.

I too like the idea of getting a refund, if a breeding doesn't take, rather than a return service if a stud dog owners terms are that all the money be paid up front, though from what I have read in this thread, as long as there is a contract, AKC will back the stud dog owner if a bitch owner does not pay.

My preference is a service fee and either pay the remainder of the stud fee when the litter is born, or if the stud dog owner does not agree to that, pay the full fee and get a refund if the breeding does not take - minus a non-refundable service fee. There may be some dogs that I would consider using if the stud dog owner's terms were full payment up front and repeat service, but not many.

If we don't like the terms, it is up to us to say no. There are plenty of stud dog owners out there with nice dogs that will use a non-refundable service fee rather than a return service.

to XYZ and Studley!!!!

I agree.

____________

*As I said in an earlier post, if the terms are logical and reasonable, then I see no problem. I would not mind paying the stud fee up front IF the contract specified all but a service fee would be refunded if there are no puppies. I have no interest in a future performance contract. Period. They are unenforceable and unrealistic.

I don't mind paying for my groceries when I leave the store, but if they turn out to be "bad" or out of date when I get home, I want my money back, not a promise of some potential groceries in the future that may be a different brand *

good point. well said, lol!

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As I said in an earlier post, if the terms are logical and reasonable, then I see no problem. I would not mind paying the stud fee up front IF the contract specified all but a service fee would be refunded if there are no puppies. I have no interest in a future performance contract. Period. They are unenforceable and unrealistic.

I don't mind paying for my groceries when I leave the store, but if they turn out to be "bad" or out of date when I get home, I want my money back, not a promise of some potential groceries in the future that may be a different brand

I just used a lovely stud dog on my Champion bitch. I did four progesterone tests on her and two transcervical inseminations, plus travel 6 times to my vet which is almost a two hour drive each way. This is when the gas was over $3.00 a gallon. When the semen arrived, my repro specialist said the semen quality was not good enough. We still bred her. You never know! Of course, my girl missed. I paid the full stud fee up front. Since the breeder knew that the semen was not what it should be when we did the breeding, I called her and asked her to refund my stud fee less a service fee. She agreed. Those of us that own stud dogs ARE willing to work with you despite what some say on this forum. Nothing is set in stone, contract or not. Those of us that are accommodating are known for that and it's a good reputation to have. We are not trying to rob you blind. We WANT you to have puppies.
I do have outstanding balances out there, still owed to me in which I accepted a service fee. I have a couple situations in which I have not been reimbursed for my kits. PayPal is not the answer. Many have had problems with Paypay. Those not computer savy can't use it, and some refuse to use it.
Merry Christmas.

Thank You Laura, you are right We are all in the same boat and yes, stud dog owners want puppies to, especially in show homes, this helps promote the stud dog! I don't think there is a simple solution to this, most of us are able to work together and get good results and solutions to this problem.
Merry Christmas to you Laura and all the lab owners