I went onto Labradata in search of EIC clear stud dogs and there are not that many???? I know there are more people that tested than that!
For those of you that have tested and have a clear stud dog please take the time to post him on the Labradata site. People are looking for clear dogs to breed to their carrier or affected bitches.
As far as I know this is the only site that lists the EIC results if you submit them correct?

Also look in the OFA database. There are more total dogs with EIC ratings there, but very few that are listed as carriers. I guess that if you are paying to make your results public, most only submit the clear ones. A lot of the dogs are from field breeding, but it is a good resource and I'm sure there are bench bred dogs there that have not been entered into LabraData.

I just left the OFA data base. The boys I am interested in are not on there.

Sorry. Maybe they have not been tested or results have not been made public. Ask the owners - the best source of information if you have stud questions. I have been interested in a particular stud dog for awhile and called the owner last week. Before I even asked if there were plans to test the dog, she volunteered the information that it would be done in January. I hope he tests clear so I can use him on my carrier bitch. Time will tell. Good luck on your search... I know what you are going through

So breeding a EIC clear stud to a carrier or worse IMO affected EIC bitch, will that not produce carriers and affected puppies?

Those that want to, why not list them in this post.

You are basing your opinion on ignorance, so why post an opinion? If at least one parent is clear, than you cannot produce affected pups. You can produce carriers, but so what?

That would be advertising, and is not allowed on this forum. I think it is a dumb rule, but it is not my forum.

As the OP wrote, those who wish to post results can list their dog in LabraData ... and it is free, thanks to the yearly underwriters whose logos appear on the database pages.

Posting results of a test is advertising? I see it on other forums where advertising isn't allowed.

I have tried to keep quiet on the subject, but this EIC business is really upsetting.....

In my opinion whenever a question is posted about EIC I think it's a way to push a particular site and particular dogs...... I do and always will believe this EIC business is a bunch of to-do about nothing. It's not as big of an issue in the breed as some are scaring it up to be, yes scaring, and I do believe it's scare tactics. Those of us who have been in the breed many years know that it's not a true issue that someone has been making it out to be. We do not have dogs after dogs falling over left and right and the majority of us have never ever seen it, even in lines that have supposedly been called carriers. Before someone steps up and claims that the breeders like myself are burying our heads in the sand because we do not have faith in the test, that we will never believe it is based on an actual problem, that is not the case at all. It has to do with experience of particular lines and the breed itself that we believe it's a bunch of nonsense. The test has only identified one gene and without the other to cause a problem, there is no problem. Obviously there are not Labs after Labs that have this combination to produce EIC and I'm tired of all the talk and scare tactics in an attempt to create panic, in addition to promoting a particular site in the process. We have all been around the block a few times and watched over the years certain scares come and go, only to turn out to be nothing to speak of down the road, and this I'm afraid is another one of the cases. No matter the people who try and claim they have experienced it first hand, some of those claims are highly questionable when others who have been in the same lines for many generations have never experienced it. Those who are in it for the long haul need to learn how to ride these sort of things out and not jump on the panic band wagon whenever someone cries, new problem.

Can you remind me what scares you are talking about in the past that turned out to be nothing? I have been doing this a long time to, but the only one I remember was the faulty first Optigen test. The test proved in error, but the PRA was there, and still is. What exactly are you talking about?

"In my opinion whenever a question is posted about EIC ...."

Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion. It will not change the facts nor will it change the priorities for most experienced breeders. That is why I try to seldom post an opinion.... just facts. I think they speak more loudly and accurately than opinions and I don't have to apologize for them

Very well said! This EIC hoopla is driving me nuts too and pissing me off how people are trying to make it to be what it is NOT!
Aloha,
Jackie who's been around the block a few times and have never seen it in my lines that are supposed to have affecteds and carriers!

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I have tried to keep quiet on the subject, but this EIC business is really upsetting.....

In my opinion whenever a question is posted about EIC I think it's a way to push a particular site and particular dogs...... I do and always will believe this EIC business is a bunch of to-do about nothing. It's not as big of an issue in the breed as some are scaring it up to be, yes scaring, and I do believe it's scare tactics. Those of us who have been in the breed many years know that it's not a true issue that someone has been making it out to be. We do not have dogs after dogs falling over left and right and the majority of us have never ever seen it, even in lines that have supposedly been called carriers. Before someone steps up and claims that the breeders like myself are burying our heads in the sand because we do not have faith in the test, that we will never believe it is based on an actual problem, that is not the case at all. It has to do with experience of particular lines and the breed itself that we believe it's a bunch of nonsense. The test has only identified one gene and without the other to cause a problem, there is no problem. Obviously there are not Labs after Labs that have this combination to produce EIC and I'm tired of all the talk and scare tactics in an attempt to create panic, in addition to promoting a particular site in the process. We have all been around the block a few times and watched over the years certain scares come and go, only to turn out to be nothing to speak of down the road, and this I'm afraid is another one of the cases. No matter the people who try and claim they have experienced it first hand, some of those claims are highly questionable when others who have been in the same lines for many generations have never experienced it. Those who are in it for the long haul need to learn how to ride these sort of things out and not jump on the panic band wagon whenever someone cries, new problem.

"Very well said! This EIC hoopla is driving me nuts too and pissing me off how people are trying to make it to be what it is NOT!
Aloha,
Jackie who's been around the block a few times and have never seen it in my lines that are supposed to have affecteds and carriers!"

How do you know your lines are "supposed to have affecteds and carriers"?

Well put Jackie!! Some of the ones that are doing the testing in our area will come right out and tell the puppy buyers in their area not to buy from other breedrs in this same area. This is sad! take care of your dogs and what you are producing. We may all end up doing the testing when we feel the test is at it's best.

I asked that question as well, anono.

If you have a carrier bitch and the stud you want to use is not tested, then ask for him to be tested. If the owner says no, move on to another. There are plenty of great stud dogs out there. Simple. What's the big deal?

Maureen Gamble
"... That is why I try to seldom post an opinion.... just facts."


Thanks for my morning belly laugh!!!!

I have never had any experience with TVD, so should I assume the people who constantly post about this are just trying to "scare" me? No one ever talks about this in their lines, yet it is supposedly a horrible disease that is prevalent in the breed. I have never seen it nor has anyone who talks about admitted it is in their lines and they have produced it. So WHERE is it? No mention of heart issues on websites, yet people keep talking about what an issue it is. Same with seizures. Dogs just disappear, but we never know why. I would prefer that people openly discuss these things rather than hide them. If it means that stud dogs are no longer used, then so be it; no one is entitled to stud fee income. I have heard rumors of TVD back in the pedigree of the sire of one of my dogs, who is the result of an outcross, but no one ever mentioned it when I asked about health issues behind the stud. At least with tests for things like PRA, CNM and EIC, people cannot hide behind secrecy. At least I can ensure these issues are not reproduced, because it is a crapshoot as to whether the bigger issues are reproduced (because no one will admit having these issues).

I recently tested all 3 of my boys, and all are EIC Clear... I sent in the data to OFA on Friday, and I'm figuring out Labradata :)

This has nothing to do with secrecy. TVD is a very real thing. Epilepsy is out there, but not on a scale that it once was made out to be.

EIC however is another ball of wax and it has been blown out of proportion, mainly by one person to a scale that is absurd. A test has been pushed that is not needed and it is not even complete enough to be used. It only shows one of the gene's that many dogs may carry, but without the other needed gene there is no problem. One dog has to carry both gene to have or produce EIC. People are testing and basing their breeding program on a incomplete and incorrect test! I wish people would wake up and start seeing this for what it is. As it has played out in the past, people need to stop placing all their faith in things like this, if not they will look back and kick themselves for jumping the gun and being so naive. It's no sweat off particular people's noses if you dump your lines, they have nothing invested. So look at the big picture and see this test for what it is really is - incomplete and at this stage totally inaccurate until they have both gene's identified, not just one that without the other means you have a perfectly NORMAL dog! People stop feeding into this insanity! This is not a huge problem in the breed. It is so rarely seen that breeders who have been doing this for years and years have never ever seen it. As some suggested, breeders like myself are hiding it, what is the point of that?! If there was truly a problem we would be encouraging testing because we love this breed and want to preserve the breed and our lines.

It is time to put this into perspective and stop cutting normal dogs out of the gene pool, by going off this incomplete and incorrect test that certain people have started and is continually pushing!

" A test has been pushed that is not needed and it is not even complete enough to be used. It only shows one of the gene's that many dogs may carry, but without the other needed gene there is no problem. One dog has to carry both gene to have or produce EIC...."

So nice to see that we have experts on this forum that are more knowledgeable than the researchers that did the work. Unless your dog is affected then I don't see it being cut from a breeding program. Why so defensive? If you love this breed you would have the test as more information will be gained to help further your "theory". Unless you are willing to step up and have this test in hopes of improving it then you shouldn't complain. Perhaps someone with your lines has come up carrier or affected and you're just in denial.

"Perhaps someone with your lines has come up carrier or affected and you're just in denial."

Why would a carrier in someone's lines be an issue? Isn't the same as a PRA carrier? As long as he/she isn't bred to another carrier, it shouldn't matter. One parent needs to be clear/unaffected, or am I not understanding the whole EIC test?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

" A test has been pushed that is not needed and it is not even complete enough to be used. It only shows one of the gene's that many dogs may carry, but without the other needed gene there is no problem. One dog has to carry both gene to have or produce EIC...."

So nice to see that we have experts on this forum that are more knowledgeable than the researchers that did the work. Unless your dog is affected then I don't see it being cut from a breeding program. Why so defensive? If you love this breed you would have the test as more information will be gained to help further your "theory". Unless you are willing to step up and have this test in hopes of improving it then you shouldn't complain. Perhaps someone with your lines has come up carrier or affected and you're just in denial.

Why should an affected be cut either????
If the dog doesn't show the phenotype just breed it to a clear dog. Breed accordingly till you get your clears.
This is a tool just like Optigen!

I own 2 labs. I had conversations about EIC to my vet.
This was his statement. Just because a breeder has not heard about a collapse in their line does not mean its not there. If a pet owner sees a collapse and they take it to their vet. But their vet has never heard of EIC, which is not uncommon. They can misdiagnose by saying its heat stroke, etc... Another point he made is how many pet owners keep in touch with their breeder?! He said in his experience, not many!
I've had 7 dogs in my lifetime and have only kept in touch with 2 of the 7 dogs breeders. So all the problems (Cancer, retinal dysplasia, hip problems, skin problems, etc..) that I have had with those dogs I never told those breeders about. So they may think they don't have any problems in their lines!

Yes, isn't is so nice to see we have "experts"? on this list, you and the other one seem to know it all and have questions that have obvious answers that you keep asking.

Dumb statement that if you love this breed you'd test, why the heck should be waste our money on a worthless test? Because it is for research sake? And then what? They turn around and overcharge us for a test when it is accurate when they do figure it out like optigen did? You sound wet behind the ears to me.

anono wrote:
So nice to see that we have experts on this forum that are more knowledgeable than the researchers that did the work. Unless your dog is affected then I don't see it being cut from a breeding program. Why so defensive? If you love this breed you would have the test as more information will be gained to help further your "theory". Unless you are willing to step up and have this test in hopes of improving it then you shouldn't complain. Perhaps someone with your lines has come up carrier or affected and you're just in denial.

""Perhaps someone with your lines has come up carrier or affected and you're just in denial."

Why would a carrier in someone's lines be an issue? Isn't the same as a PRA carrier? As long as he/she isn't bred to another carrier, it shouldn't matter. One parent needs to be clear/unaffected, or am I not understanding the whole EIC test?"

If a breeder who did not test their dogs was notified that puppies produced by their dogs had the mutation (affected or carrier from testing), then they may indeed have it in their lines. As long as they don't test (or they claim the test invalid) they can remain in denial. I think there is an unfounded fear that others won't use their dogs.

"...You sound wet behind the ears to me."

You sound cheap and fearful to me. I don't even know what you were trying to say in your first statement the grammar is so bad.

I bought a lovely male puppy sired by a male that is used quite a bit. That puppy tested as EIC affected. Doing the right thing the owners of the sire and dam were contacted and told - in a nice and non-accusatory way - that the puppy tested affected. I'm not one that puts blame on other sire or dam ... stuff happens and we deal with it.

Anyhow, the sire's owner is one that doesn't believe in the test so she's ignoring the results I gave her and not taking it any further with her dog. He's still up for stud - which is fine, I have no problem with this - but the findings haven't been given to any prospective dam owner.

I've made the decision to neuter and place the male as I'm not interested in having an affected dog (he had conformation issues anyway) as I already have a carrier male.

How many other puppy buyers/breeders in the future will be put in the position of making these hard decisions because someone sticks their head in the sand?

My question to those who don't believe in the test right now. If someone came to you like I did with this sire's owner would you test your dog or just assume it's not correct?

I said I TRY... didn't say I always succeed.

Seriously, I think if you would carefully read most of the posts that I make, they are generally based in logic or published facts. I occasionally share posts about rearing or other "practice" topics and only report what I do and USUALLY why I do it that way. In other words, I try to write what I would want to read: facts with sources and experience with reasons.

The REASON for this post, for example, is to get you to really accurately READ other posts I have written. Even if you do not agree with their position, I think you will see that I have supported that position with facts and logic. It is a long leftover habit from so many years as a technical writer

A couple of years ago I was told my puppy out of a well known sire should be tested, as he was producing carrier/affected get. I DID get scared as I had already bred her twice. My stud dog owner has a beautiful Sandylands boy, which was also 'rumored' to
have carriers in the lines, so, yes, I asked for the test to be done on him. Thankfully, both my girl out the fabulous popular stud dog and the sire of her two
litters tested as CLEAR. Peace of mind is what it gave
me. I had two litters out there that I now know cannot
have EIC affected puppies.

Some of you have been doing this for decades, some of us, only a few years. EIC testing, Optigen testing, wow, the non existent TVD testing that I 'do' push...all tools. Tools make one's life easier, less complicated. These tools lead to some
security in a breeding. Thank you to everyone who is using the EIC test, thank you for posting to LabraData and OFFA, thank you.

I read this on another thread (about Fox Red Sires):

"I think you have it wrong, no one can advertise their stud dogs but if someone asks for a list of stud dogs that are a certain color or throw a certain color that is NOT advertising, that is giving information. Big difference!
Aloha,
Jackie"

I guess that means that you can list stud dogs that you know are clear. I don't think posting affected or carrier's would be allowed as that may be considered disparaging. Until we hear from our host, I think anyone could post the names of those dogs that they know have been tested as clear. I would still recommend that you verify the posted information and the information will be easier to find if you have a name.

That would have to be one special breeding! First of all, testing with an inaccurate test is the same as not testing at all! We could then turn around and ask if they would Color Doppler their bitch before the breeding was considered, as well. Goes both ways and I am positive the bitch owner would be offended if we requested a TVD clearance on their bitch. At least an echo color doppler test is ACCURATE!

We would like to see more stud owners and bitch owners take TVD and heart clearances more seriously, than this EIC nonsense --- a test that is still in the research phase and not proven YET.

to Denial Does Hurt...
Why should the stud dog not be used? What are you assuming? How do you know that the stud dog owner is in denial about anything legitimate? How do you know that prospective bitches are not informed that he has produced a puppy identified by a questionable test as being (in their words) "affected".
Why in the world should any of these dogs not be used? You could breed two dogs identified by the so-called "test" as "carriers" and still get "clear" puppies.
You could get puppies identified by this so-called "test" as "affected" and yet never have any physical problems.
If you are thinking about doing a breeding, consider the whole dog...it is ridiculous to only be looking at pieces of paper which may or may not have any bearing on the puppies which could result.

Much To Do says: "This has nothing to do with secrecy. TVD is a very real thing. Epilepsy is out there, but not on a scale that it once was made out to be."

Epilepsy not on the scale it was made out to be?????????? Of course, that couldn't have anything to do with secrecy and denial, could it?

To Denial Hurts- Is your affected boy collapsing?

breeder wrote:

Much To Do says: "This has nothing to do with secrecy. TVD is a very real thing. Epilepsy is out there, but not on a scale that it once was made out to be."

Epilepsy not on the scale it was made out to be?????????? Of course, that couldn't have anything to do with secrecy and denial, could it?
____________________________________________

No it had to do with witch hunts. I will not go into specific dogs or people's name. Years ago sadly many dogs had been gossiped about, claiming they were carriers and producing litter after litter of epileptic puppies. In the end and several years later it was proven to be absolutely false in most of the cases. Breeders who hadn't been in the breed long enough to see these sort of these come and go, had their dogs spayed and neutered and placed them, only to find out later they made a tragic mistake. Too late to go back at that point.... Ironically enough, one person in particular was also behind much of those scare tactics as well. This sort of thing has gone on for many many years now and if you get down to it has always gone on. You will always have those who blow things out of proportion, whether it is for their personal benefit or for some other reason. One thing is for certain though, the EIC test is NOT COMPLETE, and from seeing some of the posts here, there will unfortunately be a few people who will prematurely alter and place their dogs needlessly based on an incomplete test.

If people choose to pick and choose stud dogs based on an incomplete test that is their business and ultimately their loss. But those of us who have been around the block a few times and are well in the loop about specific lines and what they produce and don't produce will just ride this out and we will see where we all end up. My heart does go out to those newer people who don't know any better, who are riding the scare-coaster and putting their faith in a test that is not even accurate or complete.... Those with experience and true wisdom will hold out until the accurate and complete test comes out. That is just common sense. But there will always be those who will dig their heels in regardless if it is complete or not, and when proven wrong will still have all the answers for why that happened. They better have good ones, because there will be a lot of ticked off newbie breeders who put their faith in the person who is using unfounded EIC scare tactic telling people the test was fine and they ended up spaying and neutering dogs that actually were not affected at all! Hmmm... I smell possible lawsuits..... That is not wisdom, that is simply someone who is in this for their own ego and enjoys rebelling against what is right.

Talking from experience, if all the newer people would just hold tight I'm sure it won't be long before the complete and accurate test is available. Don't make any rash decisions until then because once you spay and neuter your dogs and the accurate test comes out and you find out they were not affected or carriers at all, it will be too late.... This is not a problem within the breed as it has been made out to be, and in time this will be proven, so please hold tight.....!

Maureen, I am sorry that you always have to defend your postings to these anonymous trolls. I learn a lot from what you have to say, and I would hate for you to stop posting because there are some that have to make comments.

I also think that some dogs that have had 'seizures' have really had EIC.

This is why we need more labs tested. Because there are some coming up carriers, and these breeders will be looking for clear boys to breed to, so they won't have to eliminate them. Same as the Optigen test. It is not intended to eliminate dogs from a breeding program. Quite the contrary, actually.

There is no test for TVD carriers yet. You can only test to see if a dog is affected. Not much a of a test really.

It's better to err on the side of caution, don't you think? Especially when it just means a $65 blood test. If much-to-do is INcorrect then encouraging breeders to indiscriminately breed without testing could result in many dogs having problems. How will you feel if in 10 years this test stands as-is and it's determined to be the best predictor of EIC? Will you feel bad for telling others not to test? Nobody is telling anyone cull their dog. When you sell a puppy that collapses and shouldn't swim or is unable to preform tasks that our breed is meant to do, what are you going to tell the buyers? Do you really think they will buy from you again? Do you think you'll get many referrals? I think the opposite, they will tell others not to get a dog from you. With testing you have nothing to lose and no harm is done but by not testing and encouraging others to do the same will just add to the problem. Can you live with that?

It cost a lot more than $65
Vet visit....55.00
blood draw...12.50
EIC test.....81.25
Fed Ex.......59.18 = $271.33 And that was for one dog here in Calif...

You need a new vet if he can't do a blood draw for you without charging a vet visit. A tech can do it. Also, it is not necessary to send the blood FedEx. Regular, or priority mail is fine. I may be wrong, but I thought the test was 65. Where does it say 81.25?

As a newbie, this is exactly what I'm doing. Thank you for articulating it so well.

It is $65.00 and you do not have to over night it. It should be kept cold. Also a Vet does not have to draw it. A tech will do. I suggest next time you need a draw ask if you can pay just the blood draw charge. If you are a regular with your vet I am sure they will do it.

Much to-do

Where was I during that epilepsy witch hunt? Oh yes, I remember. I was listening to heartbroken people telling me the puppies I bred were seizing. Yes, 1/3 of the puppies in 2 back-to-back litters from the same parents, were seizing.

There is no witch hunt going on presently, but epilepsy is still out there. Thanks in large part due to denial and secrecy. I still breed on some of those old lines, and believe me, it is like skating on thin ice. Things are OK for now, but I never know when I might crash through the ice again. I take serious objection to your making it sound as if epilepsy was not much of a problem. It was then, and it is today.

As for EIC. I am not testing and have no plans to do so until they get a better handle on it.

I just paid $65 & shipping. The low cost and curiosity is what inspired me to find out what my bitch tested as...she came back a 'carrier'...which leaves me in a quandary...I do not have total faith in the test at this time...but the stud I want to use is not tested..he has never collapsed nor have his offspring but now I am torn...had I not tested her I would have just done the breeding without any doubts...now I am not certain it is worth the risk of producing an affected offspring...how would I explain that to puppy owners? I wish there were more posted 'clear' studs...even if the test gets modified and final results are different...at least I could look for a 'clear' for this breeding then by the time I am ready for another litter...maybe things will be more accurate. Any input?

THAT IS EXACTLY where I am at !!!
What do you do?

Blood draw: $10 per dog x4
EIC test: $65.00 per dog x4
Priority Mail: $4.80 for all samples.

Total: $304.80 for all four of my girls.

3 clear results, one carrier: Priceless!

I don't know of a single stud dog owner that is in contact with the owner of EVERY puppy the dog produced. To claim that the dog has not produced "x", and it does NOT matter what problem you put in for "x", is such a broad generalization that it becomes a fairy tale.

I too produced a puppy that tested affected for EIC *and* it collapsed. There is no field blood in the pedigree. I've been working with the dam's line for 20 years and hadn't even heard of EIC until last year. The sire was imported from Europe.

I wiped out an entire line of dogs when one bitch produced 6 puppies that seizured out of 13 puppies in 2 litters. What if those dogs didn't actually seizure but they collapsed and the diagnosis was a seizure. The vet is working on hearsay from the dog owner. Maybe all those puppies actually were affected with EIC and I removed a great line due to fear of producing more problems. With this test, as inaccurate as many of you feel it is, I would have had a better answer than a diagnosis by a vet that never saw the problem personally.

But what good is it no matter what it costs if the information is not valid yet?

I really feel sorry for the newer breeders. In the old days we would breed good dogs to good dogs looking for type structure and temperament.Most offspring were happy, healthy and sound.If you ran into a problem you would deal with it.

I feel the trend to heavy testing will ruin the Labrador.Good common sense breeders are a dying breed.

The process of looking for a clear dog seems totally backwards to me. You should be looking for a good dog, a dog you like, and then ask the owner about the testing they have done rather than looking for an incomplete list of tested dogs.

I agree with this 100%:

"The process of looking for a clear dog seems totally backwards to me. You should be looking for a good dog, a dog you like, and then ask the owner about the testing they have done rather than looking for an incomplete list of tested dogs."

We are looking at good stud dogs BUT THEY ARE NOT TESTED!
Do we breed our carrier bitches to untested males to produce beautiful puppies and pray that our wonderful pet homes don't have dogs that collapse!
I can't in clear conscious do that....

Several posters are implying the dogs who ARE EIC clear are not superior choices. How dare you? That is ridiculous.
Choose not to believe the science behind the test, but, don't portray those of us who do
test and consider the test to be valid to be ignorant "newbies", or, people to feel sorry for!
There are some fabulous stud dogs, FIRST CHOICE stud dogs who are tested
and clear, making it safe for us to use our carrier girls.

I hope I don't get shot for this by these stud dog owners, but, here, feast your eyes! I am not advertising, I'm informing
you of some EIC CLEAR stud dogs. Each of the dogs below have been judged to be outstanding examples of the breed.

Yellow Beauty

Picture

Chocolate Beauty

Picture

Yellow Beauty

Picture

Chocolate Beauty

Picture

There are many more beautiful boys listed on www.LabraData.org. This should not be a divisive
issue. Many of us with carrier girls choose to make an educated choice to use CLEAR studs.
Happy New Year, and again, thank you to the stud dog owners who allow us to sleep a bit easier.
(Jill, if I messed up by posting the dogs above, forgive me and delete me!)

I also agree...however... the dog who is the best match with temperament,type & structure(all other clearances are a perfect match for my carrier bitch)is not tested for EIC. I have asked and the stud owner is not going to do an EIC test till accurate (which I do understand)

....what do you knowledgeable, seasoned breeders who seek the "correct" match over the "health tested" match think I should do about this breeding?

Until I got back 'carrier' on my bitch...I was very excited about this breeding. I still may proceed with it but I must say, I feel a bit funny taking my supposed 'carrier' bitch to an untested dog? Even if test isn't 100%

"....what do you knowledgeable, seasoned breeders who seek the "correct" match over the "health tested" match think I should do about this breeding? "

There are knowledgeable and seasoned breeders on both sides of the fence, you have to make your own decision.

I totally agree with you!



Huh... writes:
The process of looking for a clear dog seems totally backwards to me. You should be looking for a good dog, a dog you like, and then ask the owner about the testing they have done rather than looking for an incomplete list of tested dogs.

There is no such thing as a totally clean dog.

Padgett in "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases" writes "...the great majority of, if not all, dogs carry four or five defective genes...". He goes on to talk about dogs he calls "matadors" that produce large numbers of offspring. The matadors' genes become widespread in the general population.

Think about it. If many, many people rush to a given dog, whatever defective genes that dog possesses flood the population. You can make up a list of "EIC clear" dogs, but they come with a price too. Is it really good for the breed to be influenced by a handful of dogs simply because they are EIC clear? I don't think so.

When there is more known about EIC inheritance and expression, it will be imperative to use EIC testing. At this stage of the game, it makes little sense to put all your eggs in one basket based on something that is questionable and is hardly black and white.

"Is it really good for the breed to be influenced by a handful of dogs simply because they are EIC clear? I don't think so."

If you think that only a handful of EIC clear dogs will be used, whose fault is that? I'm sure there is more than a handful if more would test. Those that won't test have to take some of the credit for influencing the breed in this way. If your untested stud is clear he may get passed up out of doubt.

Well, in my opinion, the fault lies with the test itself. It is not ever fun to have a dog tested. We all fear the worst, but hope for the best.

This test seems not to predict well and that is the problem. Since it is entirely possible so-called affected our dogs may never suffer from attacks or produce get with attacks , it is hard to justify having them tested and quite possibly damned because of it.

"This test seems not to predict well and that is the problem."

Do you think so? I thought it was a very small percentage. OFA x-rays are less predictive yet they are very accepted.

No one likes having tests run but if you look at the percentages I believe this one is still in your favor for a good outcome.

bdr, I agree that you'll have to make you're own decision. However, I was in a similar dilema in my search for the right stud for my carrier girl. For myself, I decided to err on the side of caution. I just can't, in good conscience, take the chance of producing affected pups- accurate or inaccurate as the test may be. Now, it certainly doesn't mean that I won't ever breed to the untested boy (as I really do like him). It just means that I will wait until I have a clear girl who I feel is also an appropriate match to take to him. I guess the bonus is that it also allows me more time to watch how his offspring grow as he is a younger stud.

Unfortunately, no one and nothing can make folks test. All anyone can do is keep to their own standards (whatever they may be) and hope it's enough to produce happy, healthy, and well socialized pups.

I paid $10 per dog for blood draws...no vet visits... I took care of the mailing...usps priority mail with a single freezer pack thrown in the box, and the blood packaged in zip lock bags and bubble wrap... UMN charges $65 per dog...

I think you are right, but everyone can look up the list by themselves without being directed to your personal favorites. After looking at the list myself, I noticed that there are clear dogs on it sired by known carriers or from known carrier lines. That is nice for those of us who would like those lines but would rather steer clear of even carriers if possible. I am glad to see that more people are publishing their results.

You are quite correct. Interpretation of OFA x-rays is clearly understood to be subjective and therefore subject to interpretation. The EIC test is a gene test and results are said to be facts. Reality interferes and actual experience does not necessarily correspond with the EIC results. That is why we accept OFA for what it is and we cannot buy the EIC results.

Denial, sounds like you got your pup the same place I got mine. Still a well used sire and stud owner in denial. I'm keeping mine and will still be using him in my own breeding program. I almost neutered him but he has some nice specialty wins and is everything I wanted in type and with the ability to test, I will work from there.

My Two Cents and opinion.

Just because a dog has clearances( ofa , ovc, eic, cerf,optigen, cvm, etc, etc) does not necessary
mean it should be bred and be the best representation of the breed.
Years ago breeders use to pool their resources together, and discuss about
their breeding program ,and have others critique what was in their kennel ,
and be judged by your peers on what was your best stock to use and bring out
to shows/work.( At least the group I knew) Now a days people get defensive when someone talks about
their dogs.
Get bigger shoulders.

We have tested for EIC on several of our dogs in our breeding program,and does not mean that they will be used or sought out for a stud dog.I did the testing for myself only, just like I did with optigen.
I am surely not new to this game. I started out with field dogs, and do not tell me that seizures in dogs are not out there.( boy do I wish there was a test for that) People old or new need to be objective in their own decisions.

What is the hurry? What to push out
"Quantity" of dogs possibly to show and get their Name out. Maybe if people
were not in so much hurry, then we would have better Quality of dogs in the
show/ work circle to represent the breeds and foremost better quality pets to the pet
owners.
People smarten up, look, listen, watch to your mentors( even the old time breeders have mentors), take the informaton they share with you directly or indirectly and then make your own choice, but stand behind your own decision and do not blame others for your decisons you make.
I commend people who use their name to post and demonstrate the ability to communicate positive,negative,pro or con.

Obviously you haven't been around long or know that many dogs with TVD!!!!
I can personally tell you of three litters who's parents are ECHO cleared by a CARDIOLOGIST and produced affected pups. So for all this nonsense about TVD Echo's being accurate, HA!!
Does this mean that I'm not going to test for Cardiac, nope, it means I'm going to test because, its information (WAY more expsensive information that the $65 EIC test). That is how I see the test for EIC. It gives us the best information we have at this time. It seems like those who are afraid to believe in the test are afraid because of the affected dogs that aren't collapsing. But most seem to agree that the clear dogs are fine. So why not test and just not share your affected dogs status or breed as you were but test so that some of your dogs that are clear can be used by those who have tested and have a carrier or affected bitch they would like to breed. I'd think there could be a happier medium than fighting over this. Especially with everyone telling everyone else to not test. Just give the full facts and let everyone decide themselves. It seems those not testing are pushing to get others to not test more than those testing are pushing more to test! JMO!

You can test and get certifications for everything possible and still end up with a problem. I have been around a long time. I know many top breeders and Lab Judges. I know at times they did breeding's that I found questionable, they had their reasons. They also had the understanding that there is always
something lurking in those little genes just waiting to express themselves. They bred for what they wanted.
You can do everything right and still have a problem.
I know, I just put a pacemaker in a 5 year old dog that has All clearances including heart. The dog just had a check up and still no heart damage! Just
one of those unknowns that can happen. The problem
was never picked up in any examinations including the
echo. Yet all of a sudden we had Third Degree
AV Block. Thank God the dog is great now and can do
anything except talk on a cell phone or use a micro wave. This was a dog with very well known bloodlines, I would bet that most of you have the same lines somewhere, with tons of like kind pedigrees. Never any issues like this. Sometimes things just happen. In my dogs case the Cardiologists stated we would never know with
any certainty what caused that little scarring, could have been birth defect, could have been a virus, could have even been the Lamb and Rice food. After doing tons of research on the subject I have resolved
that some times things just can't be explained . You do the best you can with the information available.
In my opinion, yes, just an opinion, I think this Forum has had enough debate about EIC. If you want to
test then do so, if you only want to breed to EIC clear dogs then do so. If you want more information then go directly to the source. Just remember that
you could end up with an EIC cleared dog, an Echo
cleared dog, a hip and elbow cleared dog, and ECG cleared dog, an Optigen cleared dog, a cerf cleared
dog, an AKC Champion dog with a $6,000 pacemaker!!!
This I know for a fact, it is sitting at my feet as I write this. Happy New Year to all!

All of the testing ECI and PRA brings up another way of looking at things.

If you breed your carriers and affecteds to clear, you are still making more carriers. It seems everyone is looking for clear stud dogs, so there must be many carrier or affected bitches out there.

By breeding them you are still making more carriers, and though it wont hurt the offspring the best puppy and the one you keep may be a carrier. The cycle goes on. This is not helping to "clean up the breed" of whatever the problem is. Before long it would seem it will be hard to find a clear dog.

The tests are made to be a tool ,as are all tests.It shouldn't be a free pass to use a dog or bitch. You need to think to yourself, is there a better dog or bitch that isn't a carrier?

Carrier status should be breedable if you have an outstanding individual.Breeding an average dog that is a carrier does nothing for the good of the breed.

Quoted from the above poster: "Carrier status should be breedable if you have an outstanding individual."
-----------------------------------------------------

And just who will be the one to decide that this is an outstanding dog that is worthy of being bred???

Everyone, judges included, have their own opinion of what they most admire, and their favorite attributes, in any given dog.

There is no way to decide what YOU feel is breedable or not; it is a personal decision and comfort level.

I'm getting a little tired of the EIC discussions because I don't think most of the respondents are really listening to each other's arguments, and there are many people who do not seem to be hearing what I am saying as a GENETICIST who also happens to have bred and shown Labradors for 25 years. I have owned and trained Labs and studied pedigrees for 35 years. As there have been lots of comments that only relative newcomers would plan breedings using EIC status as a guide, I guess that I am still a newcomer- who knew? I feel younger already!

Some points seem to be getting across- the great benefit of genetic tests is that we do not have to eliminate dogs from our breeding programs if they are carriers or even affected by a genetic trait; we just have to breed them wisely. Also, 50% of the get of a carrier to noncarrier breeding will be noncarriers! Do you always have only one puppy in each litter that you want to run on? Here is another criterion that you could use to decide between two promising babies. You do not have to use it as the only criterion- if the carrier is the standout, you can try again for your clear dog in the next generation.

I keep hearing that this test is not accurate. It is accurate for what it tests, which is a genotype, not a phenotype. The researchers test for a mutation within the dynamin 1 that was the ONLY difference in the gene that always segregated with the collapsing trait. The dynamin 1 gene has mutations that cause paralysis in fruit flies and Caenrhabditis worms. The linkage data is solid; the pedigrees used were extensive, and the LoD score is an impressive 14, which means that the gene is 100,000,000,000,000 more likely to be linked to the gene than unlinked at .02 map units. That's really close. According to Katie Minor at U. Minn., only 1% of carriers and noncarriers have experienced collapses that cannot be distinguished phenotypically from EIC and therefore are caused by something different. From the paper, 101 of the 104 collapsing dogs with complete data were E/E, and the other three were non-carriers. Only 12 of 190 E/E dogs had had no collapse at all, compared to 55 out of 73 noncarriers. There were 16 E/E dogs and also 16 noncarriers who collapsed, but the conditions did not satisfy all the criteria for EIC. So we can eliminate 97-99% of EIC-like collapses by not producing E/E dogs. The other 1-3% are not EIC, but cannot be distinguished from it phenotypically. This information comes mostly from the paper published in Nature Genetics, a prestigeous peer-reviewed publication.

Here is what many people don't seem to understand. When it comes to showing or performance, what you need to care about is the PHENOTYPE of the dog- what he or she looks like and how they act. A dog can be E/E amd still perform well- the trait is incompletely penetrant. The test cannot predict whether your dog has the other still undefined conditions that will cause it to collapse. But if we are BREEDERS we need to be concerned with that dog's GENOTYPE, the genes he or she possesses, because they will be passed down to the progeny, whether or not they are expressed in the phenotype. Even if the E/E dog does not collapse, the progeny may. Yes, the trait is incompletely penetrant, and some dogs that are E/E have not collapsed. That does not mean they won't do so in future, and it doesn't mean their progeny won't collapse. The Minnesota people claim 20% of noncollapsing E/Es in show lines based on the dogs they tested- that may be too low; we won't know that until more dogs are tested. But it doesn't really matter, because the mutation is still there in the genotype, waiting to sabottage the hopes of some puppy buyer. The good news is that with the test, we can still use the E/E dogs, even if they collapse, because we know how to avoid producing more E/Es, even though we don't know what the other necessary conditions are.

The old timers are saying that EIC has been around a long time, or conversely that they've been around a long time and never seen it. I suspect that it has been around but was confused with seizures or heat stroke. I hadn't run into it myself until recently, and then it seemed to be everywhere- not E/E dogs only, but dogs I have heard about who collapsed. Part of this is that I wasn't paying attention, and part of it is because of the phenomenon that was, ironically, mentioned above- heavy use of a few sires. The writer was concerned that if we all tried to breed to EIC clear dogs we would be concentrating the gene pool too much. Well, we've done that in the opposite direction. There are several very popular sires all of whom happened to be carriers for EIC. It happened in the field lines and in the show lines at about the same time, by coincidence, as far as I can tell. Although several of the show dogs are related to each other, they certainly aren't related to the field dogs. Remember what happened with PRA. The gene existed in our breed before Receiver came to the US, everyone bred to him, and suddenly PRA was popping up all over the place. One difference was that we didn't have a DNA test for PRA at the time to guide us on how to wisely use those dogs, who had so many features we wanted. The other difference was that Georgia Gooch started to collect owner/breeder submitted information, and we were able to see how widespread the PHENOTYPE was, and it was harder to deny the evidence. OFA and Labradata list only the genetic test results; people are free to deny that these dogs have ever collapsed, or in the case of popular sires, have produced dogs that collapsed. Well, one of those sires did produce a collapsing dog, because I was the co-breeder! As I see it, that's the piece of information that people don't have- evidence that E/E dogs do indeed collapse- in the lines they are using. For many reasons, we aren't sharing that information.

Thank you VERY much Peggy! I have a great respect for you and your opinion and couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for taking the time to explain it again!

"There were 16 E/E dogs and also 16 noncarriers who collapsed, but the conditions did not satisfy all the criteria for EIC."

Oops- I didn't read the graph accurately. Actually, there were 76 E/E dogs who collapsed, but did not meet all the criteria for EIC, compared to 16 non-carriers. Fourteen carriers out of 79 collapsed without meeting all the criteria. For those of you who care, I lumped together dgos with recurrent collapse and imcomplete data with those with a single collapse and those with atypical collapses. There were only 1 or 2 in each category that collapsed from another identified cause.

Thanks, Desiree. The reason I keep posting is that I know there are people out there listening and maybe still making up their minds, and I want them to have interpreted information, as opposed to opinions. I know the actual paper is inaccessible to most people, and the U. Minn. website is misleading. There are definitely some unsettled questions about this condition, which is why it keeps coming up. I wish more people would post with their names. Some of you make such good comments I'd love to know who you are. Carrie, good luck with your survey, and please share any insights you get from it.

If anyone is interested in reading more about EIC, I found an article by one of the inventors this weekend - can I post where it is? Is that allowable??

Here is my thought process. Do I believe in the test? Not at this point. Am I sold EIC is an issue worthy of all this stress? No. Will I test my dogs? Yes, my boys that are at public stud as a service to those bitch owners out there that this matters to. It is my duty. As for my girls, I will hold off until all this 'fuzz' goes away and somehow I get convinced this really matters and is not just a personal witch hunt from someone p.o-ed at the success of anothers breeding program. And lastly - Will I cut from my program based on the test? No way Jose'!

Get used to it people. There are those who want to keep this in front of the lab public, so every few weeks there will be somebody desperately seeking EIC clear studs. So let that person or persons talk to themselves. Who needs to have this same discussion over and over and over and over again?

Peggy:

My heartburn with this test is that the clinical picture is not as well matched to the "genetic" picture as I would like it to be, expect it to be. Maybe that is because all we actually get are anecdotal stories. But some of the explanations that are given just don't ring true to me clinically.

(I want to be clear so you don't just lump me with all those negative folks - I have tested all my breeding dogs, they are clear, so I have no horse in this race.)

For instance, I do not believe that a dog,who is a field champion, collapses at age 10 for the first time because he is more excited running around in a backyard getting bumpers, at that very moment, than he ever was at a field trial or during training or before in his life.

I cannot fathom how carriers or normals can collapse and the test still be called "valid".

I cannot believe that a dog that I see running full speed all the time, being crazy, comes back tested as an affected but is said to fit the profile because he must not be ever "excited enough" because he has not yet collapsed at age 7 or 8.

I cannot believe that a dog that was used for over 250 breedings, who is identified (but not named) as a carrier by this test, does not have get collapsing so frequently that we would have all seen it by now.

Nor am I a believer that dogs and fruit flies are equivalent substrate and one can extrapolate from one to the other in a direct line.

I have got to imagine that there is a multi-genetic factor in this disease and that being a carrier or an affected by this test is not the whole story for this disease complex.

Bonnie

Bonny, Thank you for expressing, so clearly, the same reservations so many of us have had.

Maybe I'm seeing this from a different angle but I do understand how dogs that are clear and carriers based on the EIC test can collapse. There is more than one cause for a collapse in a mammal and maybe, just maybe, those dogs have something else that hasn't been diagnosed yet.

Using Optigen and prcd as an example. Optigen only tests for prcd yet dogs can go blind with retinal atrophy that is not prcd. Remember the early days of this test when some dogs were tested as clear that had sight issues? Basically that's what happened. A different form of retinal atrophy.

If we could monitor the brain waves of a dog when it sees and experiences a variety of stimuli would it not react differently for each one? Since EIC is a neuromuscular disease it could be that a minimally different stimulus could trigger a completely different reaction. I'm far from an expert on this but I would think that running at training or a trial would be similar enough to not trigger a collapse. Possibly running with children, with their frenzied, high pitched screaming and giggly and erratic movement, might be sufficiently different enough to trigger the part of the right, or wrong, part of the brain causing a collapse.

I don't feel that the trigger is MORE excitement rather than something different from the norm that excites the dog in a different way.

I'm probably not explaining my thoughts well enough but I'm hoping someone sees what I'm trying to say.

"Maybe I'm seeing this from a different angle but I do understand how dogs that are clear and carriers based on the EIC test can collapse. There is more than one cause for a collapse in a mammal and maybe, just maybe, those dogs have something else that hasn't been diagnosed yet."

Then you have a problem. If EIC is not a well defined disease, and all the "collapses" are not EIC, what are you exactly testing for then?

If a dog "collapses" and it isn't EIC, then if the dog is an affected, is that collapse EIC or is it something different and then what validity does your test have exactly?

I cannot discuss the genetic test in biochemical terms, because that is not where my knowledge is. But say, there is a test for pregnancy, it tells you that you either are or aren't pregnant. If you get a group of people who test positive but aren't pregnant, or a group where it says you are pregnant but you actually have some disease that mimics pregnancy but you aren't really pregnant, or it says you aren't but you really are, then how useful is that test? I would say not as much as you would like, something is wrong with it.


"Using Optigen and prcd as an example. Optigen only tests for prcd yet dogs can go blind with retinal atrophy that is not prcd."

Correct, there are many causes of blindness, but a dog that tests clear for PRCD never gets PRCD. Period. It is a well defined disease where the test results and the clinical picture match up for normals and affecteds. An affected is an affected, with the clinical picture to match and a normal is a normal. A normal does not ever get PRCD.

"Remember the early days of this test when some dogs were tested as clear that had sight issues? Basically that's what happened. A different form of retinal atrophy."

No, the initial Optigen test was a marker test and not a gene test and there were some errors in it. There wasn't a different form of the disease, it was that carriers and affecteds may have tested positive for the marker test, but some of them never had the disease and its clinical picture and when the new test came out, it was shown that instead of being an affected by the marker test, they really were a clear by the gene test, which then matched the clinical picture correctly (and entirely)

The problem, in my mind, is the clinical picture does not seem to highly match the test, there are problems in that regard.

"Since EIC is a neuromuscular disease it could be that a minimally different stimulus could trigger a completely different reaction."

I am sure that is correct as it goes. But a 10 year old has chased plenty of bumpers in their lives. Probably even the day or week before it "collapsed" Probably for years. Why now and why not before? Saying it was just a minimally different stimulus isn't a very good explanation for that dog. A field champion. 10 years old. Probably thousands of "happy bumpers" in its lifetime.


"Possibly running with children, with their frenzied, high pitched screaming and giggly and erratic movement, might be sufficiently different enough to trigger the part of the right, or wrong, part of the brain causing a collapse."

The children suddenly appeared one day and that situation had never been there for 10 years? The idea of field training is to get the dog up, up, up and send it, at its highest excitement level, hundreds of yards to get a bumper. But these suddenly appearing children in a back yard, after 10 years was an overwhelming experience?

When you have to imagine such a scenario, it never having occurred before in the dog's life, 10 years, then something isn't quite right.

Too many explanations for a mismatch between test and clinical "observation" and you should start asking yourself why. And come up with a better explanation than in 10 years the dog had never been that excited.


Bonnie

Dogs collapse from heat stroke, others collapse from EIC. Because the dogs usually recover from both before they get to the vet, one type of collapse can be confused for the other. An EIC clear dog can still collapse from heat stroke; clear or carrier status does not prevent a dog from collapsing from other issues any more than PRA/prcd clear or carrier status prevents a dog from going blind from another form of PRA or any other eye disease. Same with RD/OSD. A clear dog can still develop other forms of retinal dysplasia.

There is never going to be a clear guarantee on anything, if that is what people are looking for. You can breed excellent hips to excellent hips for generations and still get a dysplastic dog on occasion. You just reduce the likelihood of that happening by staying clear of failing hips/elbows or marginal passes.

If people don't want to use this test as a tool in their breeding program, that is fine, but to suggest those that do are out on a witch hunt to take down reputable breeders is ridiculous. I breed for myself, and the tests I choose to do are to help me get comfortable with what I am producing, since I am the one living with the results.

http://www.working-retriever.com/library/taylor.html

Before saying anything please go this article and scroll down to the 2nd to the last paragraph and tell me what you think.....

I found it interesting ... I personall think that it just for the $$

V, I went and read Susan Taylor's report and her honesty that she will be receiving some compensation and I think your thinking is skewed.

Susan has worked independently from the University of Minnesota for years to find the answer to EIC. To say that the test is a money grab because of her honesty is just mean.

Instead of thinking on the negative side you should be warmed by the fact that someone is forthcoming with that information.

After all her years of work I am pleased for her and I highly doubt she would allow the test to be released if she wasn't sure it would aid in reducing the incidence of EIC in the breed.

"tell me what you think..."

I think you have problems.

everyone has an opinion... some people have their doubts about the test, she is just honestly telling you how she feels and you are being judgmental.... i think it was rude of you to say there is something wrong with her for voicing her opinion...

If you're saying my post was judgmental and rude I'm not sure why. I was only posting in defense of someone who isn't on this list and has spent many years of her life looking for an answer to a problem our breed has ... regardless of how big the problem is in anyone's opinion.

As far as the test goes, we'll never agree on the validity of it because we, as Labrador breeders, can't even agree if the disease is a problem.

I think EIC, like many diseases, won't be a problem for us until it bites us on our butts.

As a breeder who has produced puppies from parents with all the available clearances for 20 years I've been bitten with eyes, hips, hocks, shoulders, elbows, seizures, allergies, bite alignments, etc, and recently I was bitten by EIC.

I was lucky enough NEVER having to deal with PRA and for that I am thankful for all the years that went into the Optigen test and I don't begrudge them a cent for the chance to breed unaffected dogs.

For that reason I publicly thank Susan Taylor and the other researchers that spent so much of their time trying to save our collective butts from being bitten; whether we know or appreciate it now or not.

OK here's a thought, instead of someone (probably the same instigator) popping on here every other week and asking about tested stud dogs, how about they pick up the phone and ASK if the dog they are interested in is tested.