Progesterone was 3.6 on blood drawn on Wednesday. I am thinking she should have ovulated yesterday (Thursday) so breed Sat and monday. We did another test this morning and will have the results back by tomorrow morning. This will be a natural or at the very least an AI collected and inseminated on the spot.

Am I right on with this or do I need this tweeked a bit?

Important to test until you get a 5.0 or the bitch can stall - right?
My Vet drives me nuts - always wants to breed on a 2. I have had bitches stall on a 2 for a good week!

Thanks

Optimum time to breed is 2 to 3 days after she reaches 5.0. I always continue to test until ovulation occurs and have the best success when I don't listen to the vets.

It is my understanding that a bitch can stall anytime up until 5.0. However, once you get above 2.5/3.0, the liklihood of stalling goes way down. I would breed at some point this weekend and again two days later. It is good that you took another test to verify that she didn't stall and how fast she is rising. With a 3.6 on Thursday, it is very high probability that Sat/Mon with natural, or Sunday and then either Monday or Tuesday with chilled would be right on. But again, taking that one more test to be sure was the right thing to do.

Yes, many times they stall on 2! Did you see the post on here where the girl was bred when she was 38 on progesterone level and she had a nice litter? Many vets and owners panic and breed too early. JMHO.

oops..I was thinking 3.6 on Thursday but the concept still applies.

I like to breed one day after ovulation (and 2 days later) when doing natural or fresh AI.....I am not sure that is the norm. But with chilled, I definitely wait 2 days after 5.0, and often do back to back days.

The point of the O.P. was worrying much about stalling though. I do not worry about stalling once they get into the high 2's. I will breed with the estimated ovulation date but will do one more test to verify things progressed as normal (and there is stil time to modify the plan).

Thanks -- that was me --- I did not mean to post under breeder....
This is for a friend of mine who I convinced to listen to me not the Vet so I had better get it right! LOL!!!

You all made me stop secon guessing myself!.

Robert Hutchinson is doing a seminar here in Massachusetts next month. I am really tempted to ask at the Vet if anyone would like to go with me. I don't want to get my Vets mad at me but I do think that they need to get updated a bit with their timing techniques.

Thanks again.

Janice

According to Myra Savant-Harris, progesterone actually rises at a steady rate. When it stalls, or fluctuates, it has to do with how the blood is handled; ie, setting around for hours before testing.

Not that that helps you, it's just interesting.

Mike

I've had one breeding where I did progesterone testing for 25 days!! Ovulated on day 25, bred on 27 and produced 8 puppies.

I doubt that the blood was mishandled for the whole time that was stalled. If it stalled one time I can understand it as I know that no one cares about that blood as much as we do.

The last time Hutch was in our area I did the same thing. Actually told my Vet if he would go and bring one of his associates with him I would pay for both their seminar fees AND their hotel!

Realizing how much I wanted him to attend with me he agreed and was happy to pay his own way. He was pretty well educated on most things Hutch covered but we both did learn more and it's great to have your Vet on the same page as youself.

The last time Hutch was in our area I did the same thing. Actually told my Vet if he would go and bring one of his associates with him I would pay for both their seminar fees AND their hotel!

Realizing how much I wanted him to attend with me he agreed and was happy to pay his own way. He was pretty well educated on most things Hutch covered but we both did learn more and it's great to have your Vet on the same page as youself.

Your Vet can get educational credit for attending a Hutch seminar too!

Janice ~ We had Dr. Steven Escobar, DVM do a fabulous reproductive seminar hosted by our all breed club. There was a small fee to attend but if you brought your vet you and he/she got in FREE! It was a great way to increase everyone's knowledge.

I doubt the Myra Savant theory as well. Mishandled several times. H-m-m-m-

This is a *HUGE* sticking point for me.

Everyone is so caught up in the whole magical number thing that they ignore the simple fact that every girl is as DIFFERENT as you or I.

The bottom line is this- you need to test with a method you are satisfied with UNTIL you are satisfied with the results. What has successfully worked for others in regards to progesterone numbers and days to breed on......might not work for your girl.

Here is my best advice-
Rely on your test results and instincts (yes, I said it. No one knows your girl and her cycles better than you!!)
Rely on vaginal cytology
RELY ON HER NATURAL CUES!
And if you have a stud dog....you darn well BETTER listen to him too!!

Best of luck

For what it is worth, the bitch I have that had the 2 pups, was an 8.5 on Wednesday, shipped on Thursday an inseminated early Friday morning and again 2 days later. In her case the eggs had done there thing for the most part. Totally my fault for making a last minute decision. Was worth a shot and the pup I do have is going o be very special! Claudia

My original line always ovulated earlier than the textbook says. This isn't a big deal but also, the eggs seemed to ripen faster and be done sooner. In other words, if they were bred on the day they ovulated or the day after, they would have big litters. If I waited the standard 2 days after ovulation, it may or may not take.

The thing is, maybe they were ovulating earlier than the tests were saying. That is the hard part. I can't help but think there was a reason for the old time practice of 3 breedings to make sure they were covered. That way, you could start early.

My point is that this is still an art and not just science. As a previous poster said, every bitch is different and the scientific tests are not perfect.

There are many factors that can affect progesterone results. In my opinion, the #1 reason for incorrect progesterone tests is the handling of the blood. My vet says that the blood should be collected, and sit for 10 minutes. He uses a timer. Than the serum spun off, and shipped to the lab. If the blood sits longer, especially several hours, your result will be very different. I can't remember exactly why, but it had something to do with the progesterone attaching to the red blood cells, and so when the serum is spun, the progesterone level is off because of this attaching. It is important to use a reproduction vet.

Anybody who knows a list of repro Vet for each state. I need one it's going to help me and the new comers as well.

Thank you in advance.

God Bless,



Phil

There are a couple of ways to find a good repro vet to work with.
1) ask other breeders in your area who they use;
2) your state should have a state veterinary medical association and members can list their specialty/area of interest;
3) the Society for Theriogenology(SFT) has a website where you can search for member vets by state or name. The SFT has both boarded theriogenologists and non-boarded vet members who have an interest in repro.

Thank you so much I'll look into it.

God Bless,



Phil

From the various information I have and use to determine when to breed (along with consultation from the repro vet) - measuring from the LH surge might be a little more accurate than prog. levels. We use both some of the time. The prog. levels quoted on guidelines are approx.. Bitches usually have the LH surge at about 2.0, but it can happen a little earlier or a little later. All of the stages ie - when they ovulate, when the eggs are mature, etc. vary as much as, say, 12 hours. It's easy to understand how the 5.0 ovulation point isn't a "one size fits all".