If you breed a Byc to a By, will you get all three colors in that litter? I had asked a breeder and she wasn't sure.

No. Both parents must carry chocolate to produce chocolate. This is what you might expect:

Black that carries Chocolate and Yellow to a Black that carries Yellow
produces 12.5% BB,12.5% Bc, and 25% By, 25% Byc, 12.5% Yy, and 12.5% Yc

You should only get black and yellow pups when breeding a Byc to a By. If they both carried chocolate then you would get chocolate.

The BlueKnight Labrador website has the most wonderful chart to help you determine coat color in litters.
http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

WrongOH! Both carry yellow, so you may get yellow.

I do so wish everyone would learn the scientific notation for color. If they did, it would reduce an enormous amount of confusion. A so-called BYC dog can be either Bbee or BbEe. Often questions ask about BYC dogs and that does not provide all the information needed to answer the questions.

Take the following test. If you can tell the color (phenotype) for each one you are 99% of the way there. The genotypes (genes) are listed. See if you can correctly tell what the color (phenotype) of the dog is. Scroll down to find the answers at the end.


bbEe
BBEE
BbEE
BBee
BBEe
Bbee
bbEE
bbee
BbEe







bbEe - chocolate
BBEE - black
BbEE - black
BBee - yellow
BBEe - black
Bbee - yellow
bbEE - chocolate
bbee - yellow
BbEe - black


Did you get them all? Here is a bonus question – which of above is a yellow dog with brown nose pigment?

If you need a little more help, you can study the VetGen charts. One chart shows combinations by color (phenotype) and the other chart shows combinations by genes (genotype).

http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color.html
http://www.vetgen.com/documents/CoatColorInheritanceChartbygenotype.pdf

Have fun!

P.S. The yellow dog with the brown nose pigment is bbee.

I agree that it would be best for everyone to know the scientific and correct way to express coat color, but using B, Y and C is SO much simpler, and easier to understand. Can you explain the difference of a Byc dog that is Bbee and one that is BbEe? Thank you.

I just looked at your chart and answered the question. But, I think you are in error when you say a Byc dog can be yellow. I have never heard anyone call a yellow dog Byc. Actually, the B at the beginning denotes this dog to be black.

Sticking with Bb Bc By Cy and Byc is fine for most of us. Don't really need a lesson today. Do love the blueknight web page when I need to dig deeper.

"A so-called BYC dog can be either Bbee or BbEe. "
A Bbee is not a BYC. It is yellow and carries chocolate. Typically, one would reference this in non-scientific notation as Yc. I appreciate that the Bbee is more correct - especially in this case - as one could not tell from the Yc designation if the dog has black or chocolate pigment.

QUESTION #1. Can you explain the difference of a Byc dog that is Bbee and one that is BbEe? Thank you.

The Bb is the black/chocolate gene. The B is for black. The b is for chocolate. Therefore a so-called byc dog is Bb. The other gene can be either Ee or ed. The E is for NOT-yellow. The e is for yellow. You need 2 little e's to make a yellow dog. If the byc dog is BbEe, the dog will be black in color. If the byc dog is Bbee, the dog will be yellow in color.

QUESTION #2. Yes, a byc dog can be yellow. Can somebody name a couple of yellow boys that carry black and chocolate? I can think of one yellow boy that produced chocolates in his 25th litter and shocked the socks off his owner. That was many years ago so I hope someone can provide more current examples.

The typo queen strikes again.

It should NOT read:

The other gene can be either Ee or ed.

It SHOULD read:

The other gene can be either Ee or ee.

I am a biologist and I see no need to pressure people to learn the scientific symbols. I actually find the suggestion that they need to as being arrogant. Having said that, as people learn the concepts, they will be able to understand higher level articles, etc. (IF THEY WANT TO) if they learn the scientific symbols. Neither is right or wrong, just simpler and more advanced.

Sorry Maureen. A Bbee is a byc. It has a big B for black, a little b for chocolate, and a little e for yellow.

I love the color chart in the old Labrador Sourcebook, published by the LRCSC.

Is that still around and available?

Sorry, another breeder.... a Bbee dog is YELLOW!!!! I don't think anyone (except someone who just wants to confuse the issue) would ever call a YELLOW a byc... or a "b" anything since it is not black. If the dog is not black, calling it black ("b"yc) is just plain misleading.

I agree! I have never heard anyone call a yellow Byc. The first letter is the one that tells you what color the dog is.

So, what is a Genotype EeBb?

This is a black (B + E) that also carries yellow (e) and chocolate (b).

Linda asks: So, what is a Genotype EeBb?

This dog is what is refered to byc. It has E (not yellow), e (yellow), B (black) and b (chocolate).

Ee and Bb are located on two separate genes. Whenever the "e" gene contains two little e's the dog is yellow in color. The e gene operates in the recessive mode. You need to have 2 copies of the little e for the gene to be expressed. When your dog carries ee it is yellow regardless what is on the other gene.

The "b" gene controls black and chocolate. You need two little b's (bb) to get a chocolate. You only need one B to produce black. BB or Bb both show up as black.

The trick is, if the "e" gene contains 2 e's (ee) the dog is yellow no matter what is on the "b" gene. What is interesting is, even if the dog is ee (yellow) the "b" gene continues to play its part. Namely, if the "b" gene is either Bb or BB, you will have a yellow dog with a black nose. If the "b" gene is bb the yellow dog will have a brown nose.

That is why people usually avoid breeding their bbEe bith to a bbEe dog. They can end up with yellows with brown noses (eebb). Which is not to say a yellow dog with a brown nose is a bad thing, it just is not a candidate for the show ring.

What about a genotype By bred to a genotype, Yc?

I do not have a scientific mind. Can you explain to me in laymen's terms why you will not get chocolate pups from two yellows that both carry chocolate?

You will get blacks and yellows, all with black pigment.

That wasn't the original question. In the original question, only one carried chocolate. You could get both in your scenario, plus a good chance of yellows with chocolate pigment.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I do not have a scientific mind. Can you explain to me in laymen's terms why you will not get chocolate pups from two yellows that both carry chocolate?

This was not in response to the original question. That has been answered. This is just something I have always wondered, and my brain hurts when I try to reason scientifically. There are a few people here that are very scientific, so I ask the question of them.

I think you are wrong. I have always heard that 2 yellows can only make a yellow. Not chocolate or black.

Linda asks: What about a genotype By bred to a genotype, Yc

This is where it gets confusing because I am not sure what you mean by By and Yc. Different people would have different interpretations. I need a little more help here.

When you say By, what does that mean? When you say Yc, what does that mean?

By would be a black that carries yellow, and a Yc would be a yellow that carries chocolate.

OK If By means black that carries yellow, there are two possible combinations. They are BbEe and BBEe. Both are black in color and carry yellow. One additionally carries chocolate, but still is black in color.

If by Yc you mean a yellow dog that carries chocolate, there are three possible combinations. They are BBee, Bbee, and bbee. The first two would be hellow with black noses. The third would yellow with a brown nose.

It could be that "breeder's" interpretation of By and Yc is different from yours. Can Linda please tell me what she had in mind.

Genotype Black girl carrying yellow to a Yellow male carrying chocolate.

Breeding the two, as just described.

Linda, why don't you use the coat color charts that were posted? Very easy.

Can you explain to me in laymen's terms why you will not get chocolate pups from two yellows that both carry chocolate?

Here is the deal. If you have two yellow dogs, both of them have to be ee. The offspring can't get anything else but little e's because that is all the parents can possibly have. So now, just remember the rule is, if a dog has 2 little e's the dog is yellow no matter what is on the "b" gene. It doesn't matter if the "b" gene is BB, Bb, or bb. Double ee always rules and the puppies will be yellow.

I was wrong. Yellow to yellow will only produce yellow, but some could have black pigment, others chocolate pigment.

If you have a yellow who carries black and chocolate (eeBb) they will have black pigment. If you have a yellow that just carries chocolate, (eebb) they will have chocolate pigment.

eeBb x eeBb will produce 25% eeBB (pure yellow), 50% eeBb, 25% eebb (nbp)

eeBb x eebb will produce 50% eeBb and 50% eebb

eebb x eebb will produce 100% eebb.

Sorry about that!

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I think you are wrong. I have always heard that 2 yellows can only make a yellow. Not chocolate or black.

Linda says: Genotype Black girl carrying yellow to a Yellow male carrying chocolate.

This is where it get confusing. The thing you know for sure about the black girl is that her "b" gene is either Bb or BB. Her "e" gene can only be Ee.

What about the yellow male? You say you know he carries chocolate. Is his nose brown? If it is, he is bbee. If his nose is black and you know he carries chocolate, he is Bbee.

Can tell me if the black girl is BBEe or BbEe? Can you tell me what color the yellow males nose is? If you can tell me that I can tell you what you can expect.

Good grief!!! Please stop trying to teach others when you don't know what you are talking about!!!!

What anyone would term a "Yc" (yellow that carries chocolate) could NEVER be BBee.... that would mean it does NOT carry chocolate. Get your facts straight before passing on more confusing misinformation.

The chart on the blueknight site that was mentioned is good reference for those just getting started into this color notation issue. I recommend Pam Davol's site for a more detailed description and explanation.
Coat Color Inheritance
A Detailed Examination of Coat Color Genetics

I sent to HealthGene. Results, Genotype EeBB. Girl is black with black pigment, very dark brown eyes. Male is yellow with black pigment, nose not jet black, but, black. I don't know what his Genotype or Phenotype he is. Is there a simply answer out there. Thank you.

My yellow girl results from VetGen. Carrying two copies of the e gene. Was told by them she is yellow carrying black.

Linda, your yellow male could carry chocolate even with a black nose. Only to tell is to test.

25% EeBB - black carries yellow
25% EeBb - black carries yellow and chocolate
25% eeBB - "pure" yellow
25% eeBb - yellow carries black and chocolate

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Genotype Black girl carrying yellow to a Yellow male carrying chocolate.

Thought so.

Has the yellow male ever had any chocolate get? Without a test, you can't tell if he is Bb or BB unless he has produced chocolate in previous litters. If he has had chocolate puppies and his nose is black, you know his genotype is Bb.

Thank you, no chocolates.

OK I guess you would like to assume that the yellow boy does not carry chocolate. Even if he did, with a BBEe bitch, you can only get black and yellow. Probability says you would get half black and half yellow. But, we all know that if your heart's desire is a black male, the fates will probably give you a bunch of yellows of both sexes and some black girls. Sigh.

P.S. If by chance the yellow stud does carry chocolate, statistically half the puppies should carry chocolate. You'd have to test to know for sure.

Just because there has been no chocolate gets doesn't mean this dog doesn't carry chocolate.

In the old school lingo the translations were easy!
B or b =black
Y or y =yellow
C or c = chocolate
So a By dog would be black carrying yellow and a Yc dog would be yellow carrying chocolate

I should have added that a By dog would be a black dog and the Yc would be a yellow dog.
The capital letter tells you what color the dog is and the lower case letter(s)tells you the color(s)the dog carries

Nobody ever explained the basics to me. I haven't read every post on this thread so I apologize in advance if I am being redundant.

Dogs have 39 pairs of chromosomes. One pair has genes for black and/or chocolate. On a totally different pair of chromosomes, there are genes for light and/or dark. One key is to remember that black and chocolate are on totally separate pair of chromosomes from light or dark.

The other key thing is, the light or dark gene kind of turns the black or chocolate gene on or off.

Yellow is the light color in labs. So a yellow dog may (in fact must) "carry" black and/or chocolate, but those genes have been turned off. A black or chocolate dog does not have to carry yellow (if it has 2 dark genes), but it may (1 light and 1 dark gene).

This is because dark is more powerful than light (dominant). One dark gene is all that is needed for the dog to be dark, which is black or chocolate. 2 dark genes, or 1 dark and 1 light, will look the same. The dark gene turns on the black or chocolate (the only 2 dark colors in labs).

Since black is dominant over chocolate, the dog needs only 1 black gene to be black (if the other chromosomes are coding for dark). 2 black genes, or 1 black and 1 chocolate gene, will produce black. 2 chocolate genes produce chocolate (since chocolate is recessive to black), but again, only if the other pair of chromosomes is coding for dark.

The key is, if there are two light genes on that other pair of chromosomes, the black or chocolate will be turned off. The only light color in labs is yellow. There are many other genes on other chromosomes which decide on the shade of yellow and that is another discussion for another day.

Soooooo, if a dog has 2 light genes, it has to be yellow, regardless of what is on the other chromosomes. For a dog to be black or chocolate, there must be at least 1 dark gene. To be chocolate, there needs to be two chocolate genes and at least 1 dark.

Now start playing with the chart......using the more scientific symbols will help but is not necessary to understand what is going on. People who are good with symbolic logic (math majors) will find the chart much easier to figure out than my narrative above. English majors may be better off starting with the narrative before graduating to the chart. I hope I did not butcher the grammar, therefore complicating this all even further (although it really isn't all that complicated). Good luck!

This is a nice, simple explanation, Scientist, that gives a verbal concept for the non-scientists to start from. Of course, like many things scientific, it is not really correct in either terminology or even analogy. There are four (4) completely DIFFERENT gene mutations that can make a dog brown. In addition, some combinations of these mutations can also code for brown. It is not as simple as a single chromosome or gene when you really get to the science. The very notation we use by assigning a single lower-case letter (b) to the genetic trait is very misleading, but is the simplest way to relay the concept for discussion. I genuinely appreciate that DDC (vetdnacenter.com) actually notes the specific gene mutation(s) for brown that are present when providing a coat color analysis. It likely doesn't mean much to most people, but it is more accurate and can be useful as we learn more about the various genotypes in the future.

If you are interested in more in depth information on the real complexity of color genetics, I can recommend Dr. Sheila Schmutz' site. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

I don't like the dark/light analogy at all and find it very very confusing. The E/e gene encodes for yellow/not yellow.

"Yellow is the light color in labs. So a yellow dog may (in fact must) "carry" black and/or chocolate, but those genes have been turned off.A black or chocolate dog does not have to carry yellow (if it has 2 dark genes), but it may (1 light and 1 dark gene)."

This seems contradictory and confusing. If you are talking about genes being "on or off" then a black or chocolate dog does indeed carry yellow but if it's E/E on that locus then the yellow is turned off completely. Just like black/chocolate is always there for a yellow dog then yellow/not yellow is always there for a black and chocolate dog.

"This is because dark is more powerful than light (dominant)."

Not more powerful at all - it's just a different type of gene. The E/E gene is an "epistatic" gene or what is referred to as a masking gene. It's just it's job - it's not more powerful or more "dominant".

"One dark gene is all that is needed for the dog to be dark, which is black or chocolate."

Now this is where you are very very confusing. Are you talking about the dominant form of the E gene or are you talking about a "dark gene" in general meaning B or b? I know you are referring to the dominant E gene however most reading this will be confused.

Your point about keeping the two separate is valid and important.

Sharon,

You correctly understood the analogy when you wrote that the "dark gene" is the dominant form of the E gene. So I guess it really wasn't "very, very confusing".... :-)

The main point of confusion for some people is that if dark is dominant over light, how can a yellow carry black or chocolate??? The answer is to re-emphasize that we are dealing with separate pairs of genes on separate chromosomes. The dark colors can't be expressed if they have been turned off by the two recessive light genes. Or maybe it is better to say that at least one dark gene is necessary to turn on the dark colors.

I find people understand it better if they think of it as labs can either be dark or light. You must look to that chromosome first. If that chromosome codes for dark, the dog will either be black or chocolate, depending on the genes on the other chromosome. If light is coded for, the black or chocolate genes can be ignored and the dog will be yellow. Black and chocolate are the dark colors, and yellow is the only light color.

Of course, when making predictions for future generations, you don't ignore the black of chocolate a yellow dog may carry, nor the light gene a black or chocolate dog may carry. Progressing to the scientific symbols is encouraged at some point....

And yes Maureen, there are different chocolates but that takes the discussion to a different level which is not part of this fundamental discussion.

Both Sharon and Maureen, Please remember that language is for the point of communicating with people. Charts, like descriptive narratives, are simply models for describing complex natural phenomena which can never be fully understood or explained by scientists. Scientific understanding is fluid; it is constantly evolving (usually progressing). Since nobody (including you) fully understands genetics (and never will), it is totally O.K. to risk oversimplification at first. No matter how educated you are, your understanding is also oversimplified.

Please also remember, that the way a person who sees the big picture will describe something, is not the way they came to understand it in the first place. It is totally arrogant if someone says that you are "dumbing down" a concept when you begin with a simple model. That is exactly how we all progressed to the more advanced models....and how we will continue to advance as we learn even more.

What is wicked hard is for the "more advanced person" to distinguish between an oversimplified model that is fully appropriate and can be easily modified/upgraded later.......and a model that is not only simple but actually reinforces a concept that is so incorrect that it will be difficult to "fix" later.

What would we do without Sharon? I was wondering if you would jump in. Mostly e/b used to make sense to me but I was more comfortable with byc. I took the quiz, looked at the charts and yea, I finally figured it out. I could follow the thread and was feeling pretty good about it. Then the dark/light thing came up it confused me all over again. So thank you Sharon for saying you found it confusing too. Now I think I‘ve really got it!

My head hurts

Mine too Beth

"Both Sharon and Maureen, Please remember that language is for the point of communicating with people. "

Well, now you are getting personal! I spent most of my working life as a technical writer. I was trying to be "generous" when I commented that your analogy was useful, though untrue. Frankly, I would never explain color that way to a newcomer and many of the ideas used were more confusing than they needed to be.

I don't care for the "dark is more powerful than light" concept because it is not intuitive and certainly based in "good vs. evil" or other concepts where people MIGHT think light is more powerful than dark or ....????. Actually, it is not even a valid way of looking at the genetics. Then you mention that a yellow dog can "carry" black or brown and it really just falls apart.

I was going to stay out of this mostly, but there are very simple ways of explaining the colors in our breed. The BASIC concept that people have to grasp is that ALL dogs are either black or brown. Period. In that gene locus where the PIGMENT color is determined, black and brown are the choices. Labs have two genes that may be either one - B for black (the dominant) or b for brown (the recessive).

The gene for black pigment is dominant and always "shows" if it is present. In areas where the dog does not have hair (nose, eyerims, foot pads, etc.) the dog generally displays its actual pigment color (black or brown). A dog can not "carry" black - it either is black in those locations or it is liver-brown. Fading of black can lead to a little confusion in some dogs, but foot pads, etc. are usually easy to see as either black or liver-brown. It is not useful to think of a dominant gene as being "carried", since it always shows if it is present. Black pigmented dogs may be BB (all black) or Bb (black carrying brown).

If a dog has liver-brown pigment, it can't "carry" black - it IS brown and only has genes for brown in that location (bb). A dog that is black pigmented CAN carry the recessive brown (Bb) and the brown will not show in the pigment. It is hidden until it finds a counterpart in a breeding. So much for the black/brown gene location.

In another gene locus, Labs may develop true pigment in the HAIR and are the color of their pigment - black or brown. This is referenced as E for Eumelanin or "true pigment" and is the dominant in that location. However, they may instead have a gene that inhibits the development of true pigment in the HAIR only - e (the recessive). This makes the hair red, yellow, etc. It is the SAME gene in yellow Labs, red Irish Setters, orange Brittanys, etc. Their gene expression is referred to as phaeomelanin or "false pigment". These "ee" or yellow-haired dogs still display their actual pigment color (black or brown) in the nose, foot pads, etc.

Since the gene for "true" pigment is dominant, a yellow dog can not "carry" true pigment in that gene location. Hair either IS the color of the pigment or it is not. If the hair is the color of the pigment, the dog can either be "EE" or it can be "Ee" and carry the gene that inhibits hair pigment. This is why yellow is considered a recessive gene and can be "carried" by a dark-haired dog. It is hidden until it finds a counterpart in a breeding.

Remember... if the dominant gene is present, it ALWAYS shows. A brown dog can NOT have a gene for black pigment. A yellow dog can NOT have a gene for true pigment in the hair. The breeding charts that show the color combinations reflect those facts.

Many years ago, Barb Holl did a presentation on color that used dogs with overcoats and suitcases. The "overcoat" was the hair color of the dog - because the pigment in the nose, etc. still showed. The "suitcase" indicated the recessive genes that a dominant dog could "carry" that didn't show in the pigment or coat. It was a cute, simplistic cartoon method of making the concept clearer for those new to color genetics. I still think it is great for ease of use and it may help some when considering how color works.

Links to the sites where the specifics are discussed with more attention to detail have already been given - blueknight, labbies and the site for Sheila Schmutz. Please visit those pages if you want a clearer understanding of one of the most basic and simple genetic expressions in our dogs. If you can get a handle on color, then it is easier to understand more complex genetic issues that confront us when selecting breedings. I hope this helped and didn't confuse people even more than the previous posts

Labs are dark or light.

If they are dark, they will be black or chocolate.

If they are light, they will be yellow.

1) Look to the dark (E) or light (e) genes first.

2) If Ee or EE, the dog is dark and therefore you look to the black (B) or chocolate (b) gene. BB or Bb is black, bb is chocolate.

3) If ee, the dog is yellow.

Labradors come in three colors, black, chocolate and yellow. Just breed and be surprised. Please, no more education. We are now more confused than ever

Wouldn't it be easier to just look at the dog to see if it is black, chocolate or yellow?

"Please, no more education"

Gee, I thought one main purpose of this listserve was to educate people.
I find that some of my students understand genetic things better if they understand the physiology behind it, so I will throw in one more note. The comments about color are correct if applied to Labradors. The wild type coat color in wolves may have both types of pigment, eumelanin (black) and phaeomelanin (yellow) on the same hairs, as well as whitish tips. You can find black (melanistic) wolves, and there are lighter colored wolves, too. The difference is the distribution of the pigment on the hairs. In most breeds of dogs, humans have selected for animals that have solid colored hairs, and in Labs there are only two genes that are considered when establishing hair color within the breed, of the more than a dozen genes that are known to control coat color in mammals.

Yellow labs are yellow because the recessive e allele restricts the expression of the black pigment in the hair follicles, so that only the yellow phaeomelanin is in the hair. Other genes determine the intensity of the phaeomelanin pigment. The E locus works mostly on hair follicles in the adult, although yellow puppies are born without pigment on their noses, pads, etc., so the gene must affect the expression of pigment in those tissues at some life stages. It controls in the recessive state, that is, when the yellow allele is inherited from both parents. If either parent contributes a dominant E, then this locus does not affect the hair follicles. Someone, maybe Sharon, called this epistatis. This term applies to interactions between loci. The epistatic yellow locus controls the other locus when two recessive alleles are present. So an "ee" Labrador will always have yellow hair.

The other locus controls the ability to make eumelanin, the black pigment. A chocolate dog can't make black pigment,not only in the hair, but in the entire body, including, by the way, the nervous system, so chocolate dogs do, indeed, have "brown brains". Does that affect their behavior? I don't have chocolates, so you'll have to tell me.

A carrier specifically refers to the possession of a recessive gene. Because black is dominant at both loci, it is not correct to say that a yellow or chocolate carries black. A yellow can carry chocolate (Bbee)and a chocolate can carry yellow (bbEe). I wouldn't refer to a bbee dog as a chocolate carrier. It would be a chocolate factored yellow, as the chocolate gene is actually expressed in the phenotype. When I look at pedigree information I always interpret Byc as BbEe, a black that carries yellow and chocolate. I always assume that By is BBEe and Bc is BbEE. Only recently have I seen Bb or Yc used. I guess I would interpret Yc as Bbee. Bb- I'm not sure, and I haven't been sure when I've seen it in ads, although my guess is that the dog is black and carries chocolate. As for yellow or chocolate carrying black, I run the other way, as I assume that the owner doesn't understand genetics.

"As for yellow or chocolate carrying black, I run the other way, as I assume that the owner doesn't understand genetics."

That is too bad. You might learn more, as well as make more friends, if you stayed around and discussed the differences in your use of vocabulary. I find that people who are not necessarily versed in the technical use of particular words can often provide wonderful insights into different subjects. I personally feel that it is the person who can't have a discussion with a beginner is the one who more than likely lacks understanding. It is the educated person who should be more able to move between different models. Educated people are the ones who understand the operational use of words.

But I loved your post otherwise......sincerely.

I discuss these things with beginners all the time, as I teach undergraduate genetics. My comment referred specifically to ads and websites, which is where I usually see these notations, not necessarily to attempts to explain genetics as Sharon is doing in the post above. I had not read that thread when I posted this message. If you had ever had a discussion with me in person, I think you would find that I do not run the other way from any kind of discussion and certainly am not turned off by lack of proper terminology in an informal discussion. I do think people should have their ducks in a row when they advertise their dogs.

I also think it is more correct and also clearer to talk about yellows that carry chocolate and yellows that do not carry chocolate rather than yellows that carry black, especially since the black pigment is expressed in the phenotype and is not hidden.

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

This shall help.

Only if people actually read it without prior prejudice I keep commenting that this topic is already covered in several very good websites - this is one of them. Thanks for posting the link again.

Thank you Peggy, enjoyed your post.

" love the color chart in the old Labrador Sourcebook, published by the LRCSC.

Is that still around and available? "

I believe the LRCSC is updating and will be reprinting shortly.

Peggy,

Something to consider is that I personally would not necessarily consider Intro. to Genetics students beginners IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS FORUM. In academia, they certainly are....no argument there. But in the bigger picture, your students are probably biological science majors in college. That means Intro Bio already at the university level as well as successful General Bio in high school, likely at the honors level since they intended to be science majors in college. Additionally, they may have also had AP Bio in High School.

Most adults were not science majors in college. Most adults who loved Biology in high school but did not pursue it further may have not formally studied genetics for many years. Most are very bright people who will be sponges for knowledge but need to start with fundamental concepts and minimal technical jargon.

Most importantly, they are turned off by us pompous know-it-alls arguing about our egos.

You probably won't read this,as I've been gone for several days, and this thread is now WAY down the page, but in case you do... I also teach genetics to non-biology majors. I find that the biggest problem in talking to people who don't have a background in genetics and in fact in any field of biology, is vocabulary. If people understand the terms locus and allele, the conversation is much easier. Of course, knowing what homozygous and heterozygous mean also is helpful, but those are long words and tend to scare people off. I do try to make my posts understandable without talking down to people, and I have received more than a few comments on this board thanking me for my efforts.

Hi Peggy,

I am in total agreement with you regarding the fact it is the vocabulary that gets in the way of explaining genetics, and almost everything biological for that matter. In a formal class, I assume you would spend the time trying to teach the vocabulary, while trying to keep it to a minimum for non-majors. But on this forum, I think those with the vocabulary need to figure out how to explain the concepts while using virtually none of the proper vocab. This can be a fun process.

The frustrating part as I see it is that minimizing vocabulary and oversimplifying kind of go hand in hand. Personally, I think that is usually an O.K. trade-off (usually being a key word). I am not sure the other scientific types on this forum agree with that.