I have a 14 month old female that was placed with me as show potential at 8 weeks. I am still fairly new at this and I had to rely on the breeder to determine the quality of the puppy. Now, she is very small, not so much short 21", small head and tail and she lacks bone. She has some very nice qualities, good laid back shoulders, nice side profile, nice rear and she is a pretty good mover. When she was 4 months a labrador handler told me she was pet quality, yet the breeder tells me still today he would show her. I have had her out to shows a little here and there and she has won the class from time to time. I don't want to invest the time and money in her if she is not good enough for showing. My question is how long to I wait to make the decision whether to show her or not?

Well, how much experience does this breeder have? Have they finished any of their dogs? Have you had your bitch evaluated by an unbiased experienced breeder/judge? What do the parents looks like?

I would listen to your breeder esp if she has won classes from time to time. Some lines take a long time to develop and mature. Ask your breeder if you have those lines. Another thing you can do is ask another breeder for a live eval if you live far away from your breeder - it is hard to eval a puppy sometimes from photos, but I would tell your breeder you are doing this so they do not feel you are doing anything behind their back.

I had one girl who took until well after 2 to really show what she really had. Really a slow maturer.
Sometimes it is so hard to wait, but worth it.
A

Ok, I don't want to sound harsh here but you said yourself you are new to this.
You need to realize that you are not going to be lucky enough to have a breeder just hand you a knock out puppy.
You need to get your self out in the ring with what you've got (so long as shes not so bad you will be laughed out of the ring) and PAY YOUR DUES!
We all did it.
Don't expect to skip it.
Go out, have fun with her, LEARN LEARN LEARN and maybe by the time someone will take you seriously, you'll know enough to get somewhere

Perhaps spend some time at specialties and different all breeds. Do you have a Lab Club local to where you are? Reach out to other breeders in your area. Educate yourself and start working on your eye. Surround yourself with people who have knowledge and are willing to share.

Many of us started out with something as a show prospect that ended up not being the road we took. You will get many opinions on your girl depending on who you ask...you need to know which of those opinions you will value. The breeder of your girl may very well think your girl is a good representative. Does she look like what he typically breeds? Usually a kennel/breeder will have a certain type to their dogs if they have been in this hobby for any amount of time. She may also be one that is slower to mature and fill out. Some pedigrees develop much more slowly.

Maybe do some other activities with your girl such as obedience, agility, hunt tests while at the same time learning more about the breed from others.

I remember my first champion...she got her first major fairly early from the puppy classes and I have that picture to this day...not because it was wonderful (because it was not! YIKES! All I can think now is what was that judge thinking!?) I keep it framed on my desk because it reminds me where I started and that it does take time and education to get where you want to go.

I think as you do this, you should also think about your goals in this hobby...do some self reflection.

Good luck to you and your girl.

Maybe you need to enter her in a few shows and ask the more experienced breeders what they think of her and enter her in shows where there are breeder/judges. If she does well in those shows and others think she is worth showing tnen continue, if not they forget it and wait till she's older and mature and then try again and if still not up to par then i'd quit with her. Another thing is she may be a good brood bitch (has qualities like structually correct) and just not a show dog.
Don't listen to the person that said forget about getting a good dog the first time out... I myself would only sell a dog to someone willing to show if it was something I myself would show in the ring. Who wants others saying is that the junk that kennel produces if you sell a dog that's not worthy to be there, certainly not I!
Aloha,
Jackie

It used to be that anyone could look up a dog's show record for free on Infodog. I recall looking up one bitch that belonged to a very well known breeder who always showed her own dogs. The dog was not finished when I looked her up. She eventually got her Ch. but it took time. When I looked, the bitch had been shown over 40 times. I think new people have no idea what it can take to finish these dogs. Yes, there are rare ones that walk in, blow everyone away and are finished in no time at all. As for the rest of us, well, you get the idea.

If someone purchases with money a dog as a show prospect that person should receive a show prospect puppy. This sport is not a club, it's a hobby. You pay entry fees, you pay for food, you pay for classes, you pay for lots of things but there are no dues to be paid to participate in this sport. Who decides what the dues are, how much they are and when they're paid? For godsake, get over yourself.

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Replying to:

Ok, I don't want to sound harsh here but you said yourself you are new to this.
You need to realize that you are not going to be lucky enough to have a breeder just hand you a knock out puppy.
You need to get your self out in the ring with what you've got (so long as shes not so bad you will be laughed out of the ring) and PAY YOUR DUES!
We all did it.
Don't expect to skip it.
Go out, have fun with her, LEARN LEARN LEARN and maybe by the time someone will take you seriously, you'll know enough to get somewhere

And it would be this attitude , NEWBIE, that keeps most of us from placing show prospects in hands like yours. It takes far too many years to produce quality, to give it away to somone who thinks money buys it and it is owed to them.

Yes the "newbie" attitude drives me crazy... Sorry.
How many of us experienced long time breeders kept promising show puppies only to have them wash out later. You can not guarantee show quality unless you own a crystal ball. This is what learning is all about. You have said that you have concerns over the amount of bone. Sometimes it takes time for a dog to mature out. Sometimes they just plain don't work out no matter how much money you paid for her!
Not sure about everyone else but this game is a crap shoot. Some people get lucky and others have to work harder.

When I first showed my dog I had the arm band on the wrong arm the ring steward came over to tell me! LOL

Also at a local match I used a walking leash instead of a shoe lead but a very nice lady came over and loaned me a show lead.

There are some who made fun of me and laughed but who cares....you have to start somewhere and who needs the ones that make a fool of you!

Show her, see what you have. You know, some folks might laugh, but they never really laugh you out of the ring, you can do the wrong thing with the number, the lead, trip over yourself on the up and back

and you know what??? nobody dies, you still get to keep your nice dog....and so what if they laugh.. hurt pride is not fatal...and nice people don't laugh, they help you


barb

In some lines 14 months can be a terrible age. Many lines do not even begin to mature until 2-3 years. "Always" listen to the breeder a puppy is obtained from, they know their lines best! Have trust in them as they had enough trust in you to place one of their puppies with you.

Shame on you breeder/ohio. You must have champions up the ying yang to give this kind of advice. Let me tell you, who's going to protect this beautiful, gorgeous breed when you're gone??????????? Yeah, the "Newbie". She did not ask for a righteous, holier than thou answer okay??????
I have never met so many fickle, unhappy people in my whole entire life as the people that spew their garbage here -- There are great people in this breed, unfortunately the garbage spewers outnumber the normal people on the internet. Go play with your labs and learn a few things, I know I have!!!!!

I agree with your comment.... Just wanted to add that people like that are the reason the last few shows I have entered were worth only one to two points. The nicer we are to the newbies the more they will listen and continue showing.

I had winners bitch that day after ALL that! lol
My Lab was totally wild too.
But I did it...so can you!!!

Thank you for all of your imput, it is very helpful. To answer a few of the questions, my girl does have a very good pedigree with several top producing males in her line. Her breeder has bred several champions. I also do want to get her evaluated by another breeder that does not know the breeder who bred her. Thanks, I think I will give her more time.

Aw Thanks, but I would really like to know who she is because I'm in Ohio too and she doesn't represent the majority of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newbie -- All I can tell you is keep trying and of course NO breeder is going to place the pick puppy with anyone but herself. Continue to try and the best i can tell you is I hope you have an awesome pedigree and that's where you start!!! Research your pedigree, research if a line is slow to mature, continue showing your girl and worse case scenario, she's your brood bitch if you have that phenomenal pedigree! A show prospect is just that, NO ONE can guarantee a show puppy, I sincerely wish that would be the case, but just move forward. That's why it's wrong imo to sell puppies at different costs than pet puppies.

I agree if I am to place a show prospect with a client with my kennel name on it. I would want to have something out in the ring that I would show myself.

That doesn't make any sense at all! Why would you have a breeder who doesn't know the breeder or their lines evaluate her? They couldn't possibly do it with no first hand knowledge of the lines. No one knows their lines better than the breeder him/herself. This is exactly why so many long time breeders have stopped placing with new people. So many have absolutely no respect or trust whatsoever for those breeders who took a chance on them!


I also do want to get her evaluated by another breeder that does not know the breeder who bred her.

I'd be pissed if a newbie I sold a prospect to went to another breeder for advice instead of me first.

I'd feel like they trust me or my abilities as a breeder.

In fact I'd really pissed.

meant to say don't trust me or my abilities as a breeder.

And why would you be pissed? Just because someone wants others opinions doesn't mean that they don't trust you, they want to learn from others too... if you know your right then there's nothing to fear from them asking others too. JMHO
Aloha,
jackie

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Replying to:

meant to say don't trust me or my abilities as a breeder.

I am a newbee! My appraoch - if people spent more time looking for a breeder than the dog it would be wise!

Many pet quality labs are sold on full registrations to Newbee's.

Typically, Newbees pay more for a dog than breeders.

I have two great show labs - paid $2500.00 for one, paid $1000.00.

Do you think one of the breeders took advantage of a Newbee?

Do I feel bad? No, just part of the learning process.

Join a lab club - it doesn't take long to figure out who is honest and who isn't.

So true that more show prospects wash out than do well for me. Not ones sold but ones I've kept. You never know for sure. Although I don't sell show prospects very often, I sold a show prospect boy to a newbie and this line tends to be very slow maturing especially in the males. They had him out at 9 months and wasn't competitive and since I kept a brother of his, knew exactly the stage they were going through. I told his owner's to not even bother showing him, or expecting to win, until he matured out, 2 - 3 years old and I'm sure they are dissapointed in him not winning right now but I still think given time, he will be a very nice boy.

Check out as many sources as you can! Remember, breeders should have nothing to hide - and it is your dog!

Some good looking babies turn out to be ugly adults and visa/versa. Labs are the same! Sometimes from week to week they change!

Again, join a club!

A very reputable breeder who was standing next to me in a ring said - show you dog and believe he is the best and that the judge will pick you!

Remember, if you want to finish a dog easily, then you picked the wrong breed. Labs are hard, because the bar is set so high!

Breeder Judges are great people to talk too, post shows. They will tell you what they like about your dog and what they don't like about your doo.

One thing I have learned, judging is very fickle - but if every judge liked the same exact thing every day - the same dog would win every day!

Be happy, show your puppy! Show labs are like "Pringles" You can't stop at one, learn and love!

Let the buyer be where!

Patience is a hard thing to master and I think that it is the reason there are many newbie drop outs within the first 5 years.

Hi-
So true - Patience is so hard to master.

Then there are the ring experiences that really teach you something - especially your mistakes. And I've made them. Now I have to laugh but at the time I was mortified. A ring steward told me to go in with a puppy when I was late due to classes being back to back and I had no help and was afraid to ask stranger for help. NEWBIE! The judge proceeded to rip me a new one in front of everyone. I had to stand there for what seemed like hours with the puppy waiting to be allowed in. The other competitors were aghast also. If there was a rock handy in the hall I would gladly have crawled under it. The ring steward went over to the judge and told her that she told me to enter the ring and was yelled at also for her efforts on my behalf. Even the puppy was looking at me with eyes that said, "What's going on?"

Needless to say, the judge hated me and my puppy, perhaps deservedly so. The second and third lecture before the class was over were perhaps a bit over the top. I crawled out of the ring... Now I can only laugh and always make sure to ask someone to hold my next dog if I have back to back classes.

I believe if your stock - be it horses, dogs cattle or whatever is sound and to the standard-you should be proud to have it evaluated by anyone competent. After all that is what is happening in a show. Not every judge is going to love your animal, but the more your have your animal evaluated, the more you will learn, if that evaluator is a sound, and reasonable judge of the standard. Sometimes you have to throw out the opinion, because even you can see that the opinion does no make sense, but being kennel blind does you and you program a disservice as well as the breed.

JMHO
A

Trash the newbies all you want, but you were all newbies once. Everyone has to start someplace. If you read what was posted the breeder already evaluated the pup and said she was show. There is nothing wrong with getting another opinion. Nothing was mentioned about not disclosing the dogs pedigree. Sometimes breeders use outside lines in their breeding programs and they may not know as much about those outside lines as they know their own. If you are a confident breeder and feel secure with your lines, you should not have any problem with letting anyone else evaluate your stock.

"Why would you have a breeder who doesn't know the breeder or their lines evaluate her?"

What on earth do you think a breeder judge is? Or for that matter any judge? This game is nothing more than subjective evaluations. Every time a dog gets the gate at a specialty under a breeder judge, the opinion of that judge is that there are four dogs who are of better quality than yours.

"So many have absolutely no respect or trust whatsoever for those breeders who took a chance on them!"

Goes both ways. There are plenty of breeders who take advantage of new people.

Newbies think that everything they buy will become a champion and will finish in record time. They run from person to person wanting to hear what they want to hear. You would be surprised at what they come back with that "so and so" said. They get 10 evaluations, sort them out and keep what suits them, right or wrong! They repeat whatever was told them without really understanding an iota about the subject. They make dozens and dozens of mistakes, over and over again, the same ones over and over again, for years on end. They end up getting dogs "dumped" on them, they go out and buy more dogs, they hire handlers, good and bad, they get burned here and there. They trip and fall, they make more mistakes.
Then after many years if they are still around and if they learned anything at all from all of the above they will not be Newbies anymore, in fact some will become the respected breeders of the area.

So what they all go through is called "paying your dues" through the natural learning process, most will drop out, some will stay and hopefully will become the future of the breed.

And who are the ones giving the newbies all the wrong information and selling them the less quality dogs to begin with?

I agree with "Been there, done that"

Many new people think that they can just go ahead and skip the steps of learning.
The world in the last few decades have produced a generation of "instant gratification" people. This thought process has seeped into everything. HMO's have encouraged it. People think they should get an antibiotic for a simple viral cold because they called off work and paid a co-pay. Antibiotics will not do them any good it just leads to super bugs, spoiled brat people, and co-pays going up.
I think everything went wrong when it became improper for teachers and parents to discipline children. They are handed everything and not expected to work for it. Then they grow up and expect society to do the same. NOT SO!

Do you really expect any breeder to sell a newbie their pick puppy they have spend 20 years making!
Again with the attitude and arrogance!
Many times I hear from a newbie, "I am looking for a pick bitch".... UGH.
I admire the ones that look for the pedigrees they want. Wait for a show puppy, pass it's clearances and if it doesn't turn out for the show ring, make an educated breeding decision to improve upon the pedigree they bought. They then learn that this is work.

Are you saying that you feel the prices of $2500 and $1000 was too much to pay? I don't think those are outrageous prices.

I charge the same price for my pups regardless if they are show prospects or companions.

I am personally tired of the term being so loosely thrown around how it's "just that kind of 'newbie' attitude"....

I am still a newbie. I've been in the breed for nearly 10 years, and have been showing for 8 years and breeding for just 2 of those years. I have however, owned dogs for most of my life. So i'm newest to breeding, but not new to dogs.

I have learned over the years why i didn't win with my first lab and what i know now is thanks to many other breeders that have taught me thru the years. Most of my learning process has been going to shows and specialties and seeing what is out there and what is winning. I have been constantly going thru the pedigrees of my dogs: searching them, learning them, and understanding them.

Paying dues is considered what exactly? how many dogs i have to go thru with temperament issues, health issues , conformation faults before i get that show stopper that has no vices?

I don't believe that all good /great breeders only keep the best for themselves. I don't believe that only good/great breeders would never give their best puppy to a newbie. otherwise someone else's kennel names wouldn't be on their dogs!

I have gone thru lymphoma, elbow dysplasia, OCD, etc....in some of the great show prospects i had started out with. Have i paid my dues? I suppose it is open to interpretation and the result is based on who you ask.

Where am I today after all these years?? still learning, that's where. If i knew everything ....wow...i'd be special. But even great breeders of yesteryears will admit that they are still learning to this day.

I was given 2 great dogs in my life that have started me on a path and from there, i've made an oath to be responsible with the lines. But that is just me.
Personally- there are alot of newbies out there that can fast forward to something great and have the kind of attitude the older breeders are proud to mentor. Then just the same, there are alot of older breeders that would embarass some of the other older breeders to be in the same fancy and consider them 'collegues'.
There are the good and bad in everything. Just because you are new, doesn't make you bad. Just because you are 'old' doesn't make you good.

We should all be equal in respect amongst each other.We are all human just the same. Extra courtesy to those that have been in it a long time - and that courtesy is a thanks for bringing the great lines in our dogs we see today. That is a respect well deserved. But we all deserve a level of respect to each other just the same: a foundation of being human.

Just my 2 cents.

Right On Tina @Tyric!!! You said it best. The newbies of today will be the respected breeders of tomorrow.

Well said, Tina.

Some people no matter what the fancy, don't want others to prosper. Could be because they have not been able to reach that high level themselves and they don't want to see anyone else get there either.

Patience is a good lesson for us newbies. I just looked at my show record for Dash the Corgi.

Shown 62 times.
Placed First 25 times (9 WD & 5 RWD - finished with a 3 point and a 4 point major)
Placed Second 18 times (5 RWD)
Placed Third 7 times
Placed Fourth 8 times
Out of the ribbons 4 times

While we do hear the justifiably excited brags about young dogs who win multiple majors in a weekend and finish quickly... I think this route may be more the one that people experience. Especially in popular breeds.

Cheers, K

yes i do agree,...that is a fair thought, in all venues that does happen.

Even in employment, those that have been doing a job for many many years, and then another worker comes in, and in less time, makes nearly the same amount of money, and might even get that promotion.

That is something we all have to learn to live with but more importantly learn how to cope with. If we could look into it more as a learning experience, why didn't i get that or get there first and what could i do different to make myself better, then maybe we can learn from ourselves. It becomes self-improvement skills that not everyone may possess.
It`s very easy to criticize, but we all should learn to do it more constructively rather than negatively.

Now, back to my housework - as i`m still a newbie at being a great wife and great mother. The venue I absolutely love with no competition ,even though the dues i pay are hefty!!! I`m still looking at self-improvement skills to make the dusting and vacuuming go quicker

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Replying to:

Some people no matter what the fancy, don't want others to prosper. Could be because they have not been able to reach that high level themselves and they don't want to see anyone else get there either.

Oh yea, I love the breeders who sell on "Full" for a $2,500 fee. So its okay to breed them to death as long as you get your money up front. What about this wonderful breed. When and why is the money the main thought in some "show breeders" book. $$$$$ will be your downfall. Glad am in it for the dogs.

Back to the "other breeder" evaluation.

What am I missing? My breeder friends have asked me what I thought of some of their pups. I, in turn, have asked for their opinion on certain of my pups. Why is it a crime for the newbie to get another opinion? She might just learn something.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Newbys are fine, that is where we all started. I would not care who looked at the pup and gave you advice as long as a good breeder or judge at a show. Some of these selling show prospect to new people are just collecting money. As someone else said, someone you don't even know, is not going to give you there pick puppy. And if they have 10 litters on the ground then you are getting "the pick of what" ? Don't just go on a web page, go to shows, get to know a good breeder. Know the difference. A second pick pup might turn out to be the winning dog anyway. But 14 months is not the best age to judge, so get out and play with your pup. We all loose alot before we win.

I think $2500.00 is overboard - and $1000.00 is reasonable.

Like, I said, live and learn - it is part of learning about dogs and people.

I also think joining a club, and learning more about it will keep you from over paying - and help you really get what you want!

THe amount of money that you spend finishing a dog, far outways either price.

Thats silly, you pay whatever the breeder asks - if you don't like it, don't buy it!

I agree - newbies want everything, and NOW!
I have had that happen to me, sold a prospect puppy and the "newbie" felt that it wasn't "good enough" for them before it was even done growing.
Oh well, their loss.
Now they can go find another breeder and start all over again...

Replying to: I have had that happen to me, sold a prospect puppy and the "newbie" felt that it wasn't "good enough" for them before it was even done growing.

Are you showing this prospect puppy now yourself?

We can only hope....

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Replying to:

Patience is a hard thing to master and I think that it is the reason there are many newbie drop outs within the first 5 years.

I have several reactions to this discussion

1. You should welcome the chance to have a puppy buyer show your stock to another breeder. You are much more likely to get an honest opinion, which you can then take back, look at your dogs yourself, and decide whether you agree with it or not. Aren't you better off knowing what people are saying about your dogs? If the dogs are going in the ring where people are seeing them, they're being discussed- you know they are!

2. Success is in the eyes of the breeder. Others may have different goals from yours, like a different style of Labrador. If you are just starting out, be sure you find a breeder who has similar goals to the ones you have and if you are a breeder, be sure the people you are selling to know what you are trying to produce and are in agreement with your goals. Some people are willing to gamble with health issues and/or ignore working ability in order to produce specialty winners; others put working ability first and say "The best looking dog at a field trial is the one with the blue ribbon." There are people who are trying to "have it all"- ironclad health guarantees, working ability and show quality conformation. Any of these goals are hard to achieve and may be mutually exclusive. If the goals aren't realistic, pass them on to another breeder who has what they want.

3. Realize that luck plays a tremendous role in this hobby. So does perseverance. You don't get to the top without both!

Remember we were all newbies at one time and there's still new stuff to learn all the time, no matter how long you having been in the dog world!

Do you really expect any breeder to sell a newbie their pick puppy they have spend 20 years making!
Again with the attitude and arrogance!
Many times I hear from a newbie, "I am looking for a pick bitch".... UGH.

----This is why certain someone's never make it as a respected top breeder in the dog world.-----

Yeah, the "Newbie". She did not ask for a righteous, holier than thou answer okay??????
I have never met so many fickle, unhappy people in my whole entire life as the people that spew their garbage here -- There are great people in this breed, unfortunately the garbage spewers outnumber the normal people on the internet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is why many are turned off by the show world and have alot more support and fun in the performance venues. The attitude can go. This is supposed to be a fun venue. I find those who do not support newbies must be threatened by their potential to be successful. Find this so ridiculous. Being supportive will take both newbie and breeder farther than anything. It could be worse, those good looking Labs you have spent so many years creating could just be sitting home doing nothing and never being seen by anyone. Every person was new at one point. Some have had great mentors and are willing to give back, some are not.

replying to:
Some people no matter what the fancy, don't want others to prosper. Could be because they have not been able to reach that high level themselves and they don't want to see anyone else get there either.


I completely agree! Well said.

Newbies are..... well, newbies. I remember many, many years ago when I was really wet behind the ears. I entered a pup at the LRCP and she placed. That fall, I had her at Mid-Jersey. A member of my club was at ringside. I asked her what she thought & she screwed up her nose. I never showed that bitch again. I figured this gal was really knowledgeable.

All I can say, is please treat newbies will a LOT of respect. They are the future of our breed. Be nice to them and always remember the Golden Rule.

For those of us who are new, what is the golden rule?

Do unto others!

Actually the discussion was about the dog and whether she should show it and if she should get another opinion. She should look at the dog and the standard and how it is placing in classes. If it is placing, if it is sometimes winning...then show. If a person with a good reputation seems to think the dog is in a ugly stage then wait...even the lovely Sophia Loren went through a gangly stage and look how she turned out. I think there is nothing wrong with getting other opinions - that is what showing is - an opinion, a judges opinion. If the dog is dumped and consistently dumped in the show ring...then...you might want to rethink.

And a worthwhile/good responsible breeder to me is someone who is a lifelong learner. I guess, technically you could call them a lifelong newby.

A good breeder will trust a relatively new person who's heart is in the right place, has a willingness to learn, and who has morals and ethics with a good puppy. They will remember their own trials and tribulations starting. The golden rule should prevail.
JMHO
A

Definitely don't let 1 or 2 people's opinion stop you showing your bitch. You asked, so listen to what they have to say, but follow your heart and desires. They change so much over those first few years. It may be that the bitch is really nice and some people don't want that competition in the ring next to theirs

I find those who do not support newbies must be threatened by their potential to be successful.

Well stated PW.

I bought a show puppy from a breeder and I had it evaluated by another breeder. After I told the breeder of this puppy what the results of the evaluation were and they said it does not matter what they say it only matters what I tell you about the puppy?

I have always and will always go to my breeder with questions on their lines. Breeding for 40 years she sure knows a few things.
My dogs don't start getting points until they hit 3 years old, some of my bitches need litters before they start winning. If I listen to someone else but my breeder I would not have a kennel with over half my dogs finished.
Thank you special breeder.