Our litters are born in the house and then moved to an outside yard with shelter once they are old enough. This helps me out with keeping their living area clean and I believe it also helps to house train them more easily. Not to mention that it gives them much more room to romp and play. They yard is just off the deck with a sliding glass door and lots of windows. Pups still come inside at regular times.

Now in reading Dr. Dunbar's books I was surprised to find that he recommends looking for another breeder if you find one who raises their puppies outside, in a kennel or even IN THE BASEMENT! I was shocked because I know excellent breeders who raise super litters in all of those places. He said that breeders who raise their puppies that way consider them livestock and they will not be properly socialized.

Am I alone in feeling that well socialized puppies can be raised properly, even if not entirely in the kitchen or living room. Do other people not put their puppies outside during the day when they get older? Please share your technique, perhaps I have a lot to learn.

You are not alone. Puppies can be well socialized as long as the breeder is willing to put the time in. It's easier when pups are in the house simply because of proximity. My puppies are raised inside for the first 6 wks and then either outside or in my heated, lighted, insulated garage that is off my kitchen. The puppies get lots of attention in either location because I like playing with them and am interested in their social development. I think that these kinds of suggestions from Ian Dunbar are so broad reaching that it's hard to believe them. Each individual breeder should be evaluated by the puppy buyer on a case by case basis.

So guess I would be a bad breeder since my pups go in the BASEMENT when they are about 5 weeks old. However, the basement is a walk out, houses my office, a huge couch that the dogs let me share, extra dog beds, a pool table, extra bedroom and bathroom. So basically a family room....so much for blanket assumptions.

I have to agree with Dunbar.
I would never raise my babies outside.
My pups living area is in my house and weather permitting, they can go outside during the daytime in a large pen in my front yard, right outside my door.
How can they get used to a home enviroment if they are not part of one from the start?
Also, for you who raises litters outside, do you screen your buyers?
What would you say to them if they told you they intended to keep their new dog living outside, and sometimes come in the house?
You would probably decline them, am I right??

What book did he write this in?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Our litters are born in the house and then moved to an outside yard with shelter once they are old enough. This helps me out with keeping their living area clean and I believe it also helps to house train them more easily. Not to mention that it gives them much more room to romp and play. They yard is just off the deck with a sliding glass door and lots of windows. Pups still come inside at regular times.

Now in reading Dr. Dunbar's books I was surprised to find that he recommends looking for another breeder if you find one who raises their puppies outside, in a kennel or even IN THE BASEMENT! I was shocked because I know excellent breeders who raise super litters in all of those places. He said that breeders who raise their puppies that way consider them livestock and they will not be properly socialized.

Am I alone in feeling that well socialized puppies can be raised properly, even if not entirely in the kitchen or living room. Do other people not put their puppies outside during the day when they get older? Please share your technique, perhaps I have a lot to learn.

"What would you say to them if they told you they intended to keep their new dog living outside, and sometimes come in the house?
You would probably decline them, am I right?? "

Yes I would decline them..I would tell them you can't compare 1 puppy in the house vs 6-10 puppies in the house !!! The litter needs room to run ~ play ~ poop etc.... Come on get a grip!!! After 5 weeks mine go outside with mom....PS I do live in Calif so it does not get that cold here...

My puppies are raised in the center of my house. They do get a few hours of outdoor time, weather permitting, each day.

I would never even consider leaving them outside 24/7 in a kennel building or garage. Nor would I consider a puppy buyer who would do the same.

Right on!
If you're too lazy to clean up the poop as one poster said it was "easier" to have them outside...then don't breed them in the first place!
Sheesh!

We raise our inside too! Supervised and under control.

I just adore puppies,, enjoy spending time with them, it is never a job, nor do I mind the hard work,,

Worth having great labs to love.

Any time a litter is not right in the living area of a home it is too easy to just let them wait a bit longer--for play time, cuddles, a clean up of poop. Out of sight out of mind.
The only reason a breeder would do this it for a break from puppy raising.
I don't care how bright and cheerful your basement is. They need to be with people.
This has been discussed many times and I'm sure all the outside and basement folks aren't going to change.

Define basement because that term can be misleading in this day and age. Most if not all people in my town spend the majority of their family time in the basement, as it it a huge family and game room. Just because the room is in the ground does not mean its a dungeon

Location (basement or first floor) is just a word. The environment is what counts!

Perhaps those who think it is unreasonable to put the litter outside once they are older do not share the same standards for cleanliness of their house and litters as those of us who do think this is more appropriate???

My pups are whelped in our large kitchen but we move them to an inside / outside puppy pen at 6 weeks old.

Not only do they have a warm inside sleeping, eating, playing area but they have a large outside pen with toys and gym sets they climb all over.

I dont know about your living arrangements but my family is 90% outside in the barn and kennel area during the day. So the pups have plenty of interaction with family and older dogs, not just the mom. This to me is just as important so they have some canine social manners....

My outside kennels might just be cleaner and fresher than your inside puppy pen. I cant stand to walk into any house and smell dog poo and urine, neither can most buyers.

I'm a basement raiser but my basement is a finished walk-out apartment and I spend a majority of my time with them when I have puppies. My upstairs gets neglected but I love spending time with the pups!

I admit to being a bit amazed by this thread. Our Kennel Club issues minimum requirements for raising puppies and, if these are not met, they will not issue pedigrees.

For Labs, pups must dispose of a minimum of 50m2 enclosed run in the day time, two thirds of which must be natural surface (gravel, grass, etc) allowing them to play, explore, dig and providing mental and physical stimulation. Partly shaded, partly sunny with access to a covered, dry area in case of bad weather. A family room in a house wouldn't really qualify!!! Hygiene is checked by controllers. Pups are born in our lounge but, when they leave here at 10 weeks, they are usually house trained and have seen a fair amount: during the last three weeks, they come into the house one at a time for about an hour every day to prepare a separation from their siblings. They play with the vacuum cleaner, say hello to the postman, walk out on a leash to watch the garbage truck or to meet the children on their way home from school. They all have at least one ride in the car individually and they all pack in to the car to go swimming in a pond. Three times a day, they have access to the entire garden, they play retrieve, recalls are rewarded with treats and they all get the chance to retrieve at least one partridge before they leave here. The local kindergarten spend an afternoon here learning about puppies and dogs in general.

By KC rules, breeders cannot be absent for more than two hours on a stretch. If I had to qualify proper socialisation, I'm not sure I would rate cuddling or playing with a puppy on a kitchen floor very highly!

I agree with Mr. Dunbar and this is not judgemental for those who raise their dogs outdoors. I raise mine in the house but with a good dose of outside time during the day. Labradors are very easily socialized to humans and we breeders can drop the ball a bit and still turn out lovely, social puppies. The same can not be said for other breeds.

I would be very, very hesitant to buy a dog that is less easily socialized from a breeder who does not go the extra mile to socialize their puppies. Dogs that are naturally aloof toward humans need a lot more effort than our breed. Some herding breeds can become skittish and very vocal if not exposed to a lot as puppies, some guarding breeds can become wary of humans if not socialized to the hilt. We are lucky to have a dog that is genetically inclined to want to be with people.

In that light, I think Mr. Dunbar gives very good advice and I hope that puppy buyers have the wits to realize when the line is crossed and when it isn't.

Sounds utopian, but we live in a democratic society.....to each their own, whether it's good or bad.

"Now in reading Dr. Dunbar's books I was surprised to find that he recommends looking for another breeder if you find one who raises their puppies outside, in a kennel or even IN THE BASEMENT! I was shocked because I know excellent breeders who raise super litters in all of those places. He said that breeders who raise their puppies that way consider them livestock and they will not be properly socialized"

I will read Dr. Dunbar's books but I agree with the statement. Too far away from the household, you can not socialize the puppies correctly. 8 weeks is not a long time to have puppies nearby unless someone is breeding many litters at a time. Then they don't have enough room for the pups. If that's the case, don't breed that many litters at the same time. JMO.

That could very well be but it would be hard to be a neat/clean freak AND be a good puppy raiser, since they ARE dogs and dogs ARE messy

I suppose it's all in the type of sacrifice one is willing to make in order to do what they love.

I get frustrated with the smell, dust, noise yes....but it's all part of the package if you ask me

My clients come to me BECAUSE I raise pups in house whole 8 weeks.

has nothing to do with weather...its socialization, handling all that...but that is the clients I cater too.

Some I'm sure are fine with pups raised outside. Just depends on their expectations.

I clean up poop all day, use wood shavings to keep dry and clean.

But that's just me...

Be yourself!

The breeder we bought our last puppy from raised the entire litter in the living room for 10 weeks! She does it this way - In a large ex-pen (or two) she had a sleeping area & a "poddy area" separated by a very low board - The poddy area had cedar shavings/mulch & underneath was sturdy plastic sheeting. Those puppies were incredibly well socialized & pretty well poddy trained by the time they all left! It didn't smell at all because of the cedar & the fact that she cleaned up after them right away. Puppies also spent plenty of time outside supervised. Momma dog & grandmother were also there constantly the entire 10 weeks.I thought it was a great idea!

In my old house, I had this giant kitchen/dining area that was fully linoleum and easily gated off. I would set-up a double ex-pen in the corner. Pups could run free in the kitchen when I cleaned the pen. Also, easy access outside when they got older. There was always activity around the pups.

My new house is all wood floors and smaller rooms (old house). Pups are still in the house, upstairs in my office. Pups still get plenty of attention. But is isn't the same. I can notice a difference. I don't work any less hard now, maybe harder. But less activity happens around them. I suspect if they were out in the barn or down in the basement, they would get even less exposure to daily life.

you dont seem to get the picture, my outside is where all the action is. If they were left inside they would not see anyone until the sun goes down.

Other people already said their "basement" is their living area, it is only called a basement because it is usually under ground.

I have never had a buyer walk away because the pups are outside, when actually they have just as much coverage and socialization as most inside kept litters.

Inside, time outside after a certain age.

Watch for owls and big birds, other predators. Never, ever left alone outside.

every situation is different and there are exceptions to every rule

"By KC rules, breeders cannot be absent for more than two hours on a stretch."

That is not reality -- even if you go to a movie you are gone more than 2 hours. How would that even be enforced???

"If I had to qualify proper socialisation, I'm not sure I would rate cuddling or playing with a puppy on a kitchen floor very highly!"

Mine seemed to do just fine with playing on the kitchen floor -- in fact there was also an agility tunnel on the same kitchen floor, things to climb on, toys spread all over and laps to climb on. With my last litter (2 years ago) we went a month with temps never higher than about 10 degrees -- no way to turn a litter outside in those conditions. And once they were a bit older I worked, came home at noon daily to feed, clean and socialize then back to work for 3 hours. Since I need my job to fund my "dog habit" it isn't realistic for the pups to not be left longer than 2 hours. Pups have gone on to hunt tests, agility, show ring and beloved hiking/skiing companion so certainly not hampered by being raised in "the kitchen".

JP, do you mind my asking what is the percentage of breeders in your country that both people in the household work? The idea that you cannot be absent from your home for more than 2 hrs at a time is just dumbfounding. How is anyone supposed to hold a job and be a breeder? Maybe life is jut differnt there. I'm guessing people don't have long commutes to work and maybe you don't work 8 hr days? It sound to me as if the KC doesn't want anyone who has a life to breed dogs.

Being in the extreme cold makes it impossible for my puppies to spend as much time outside currently as I'd like for them to. Today's high was 8 F with a wind chill of 30 below. And, that's a heat wave compared to last weeks 28 below and 40 below wind chills. I can't even leave my adult dogs out for extended periods of time and certainly not the puppies. The only "natural surface" they have to explore at the moment is snow or ice! But, I did bundle up twice today and take my 6 wks olds out in groups of 2 for 10 min each set. By the end of each session I was a human icicle!

I'm one of those breeders who doesn't want a litter in my kitchen or dining room past 5 weeks of age. If you have all day to stay home and clean up every time one poops - great this scenario works for you. But, for someone who's gone 8 hrs a day this doesn't work. The last thing I want is to come home from work, walk in the door and smell puppy poop! I do have someone who comes in and feeds in the middle of the day and loves on puppies but that's it - she doesn't clean up after them. I have a beautiful utility room in the lower level (which is not the basement, there's a basement below the lower level)that has great natural lighting and a walk out. My puppies move from the kithen to the lower level room around 4 weeks of age. Everyday they spend time, in their 6X8 pen in the utililty room, in my family room while we watch tv (same level of the house), in the kitchen/dining room while I'm fixing dinner and kids are doing homework and they go outside as much as weather premits. They go on car rides, have a multitude of toys, are introduced to birds, and play with a dozen differnt neighborhood kids before leaving. I feel they are well socialized and they never blink the first time they set foot on dog show grounds. They are bulletproof which is what I thought Labradors were supposed to be.

We can debate all day long what is the best way to raise puppies. But, it's more likely that my grandfather will come back from the dead than it is that we will ever all agree! So, for those who state they would never buy a puppy from someone who doesn't keep them in the kitchen. My respone is that's fine, I don't think anyone asked you to!

Our pups are whelped and raised right here in our home.... lots of attention from the family etc.. wouldnt even consider any other way.. and they get outside when age appropriate, never ever leave them alone.. goodness.. all those big "turkey buzzards" that like to grab little things!

Mine are in the house until about 5 wks then out to a heated building. Out for short times in the puppy yard being watched. Also afraid of what flys and carrys off small animals. Would never leave pups outside for any length of time. Pups get played with so much those first weeks in the house. Can not imagine not watching those first few weeks with them.

Good temperament is bred , not made. I raise all of my puppies the same way and all are individuals.

Some are perfect with not much attention and some need more attention.

I think we forget these are rugged hunting dogs and need fresh air, sunshine,and good exercise to develop physically as well as mentally.

The "city mentality" has taken over the country the last several years in all ways. It has even crept into puppy raising.

Everyone must do what there situation allows, but I feel they are happier and healthier outdoors when they are old enough to run and play.

They are also easier to housebreak when going to new homes as they are accustom to going potty outside. It is harder to let them know going in the kitchen is wrong when they have been doing it for 8 weeks.

My puppies are born in the laundry/mud room and stay there for 3-4 weeks. Then they are moved to a room in the garage that has indoor outdoor access to allow them to scoot outside to potty and inside to play. When I am home and playing with them they have the run of the 3 car garage with play equipment, tunnels and lots of blankets on the floor for cuddle time. I have cameras on them to keep an eye when I can't be with them. I would challenge anyone to accuse my puppies of being under socialized. I don't think you are giving our breed enough credit if you think they need to be "monitored" 24 hours a day.
Sorry folks I cannot/will not have 10 pooping puppies in my kitchen at 6 weeks of age because they need me to socialize them all day. It smells, the odour is imprinted in the walls of your home and it is not healthy to eat in the same area that you are raising a litter of puppies. My house is clean and doesn't smell and my puppies are clean and healthy for the fresh air and playtime they get in a large area that doesn't include limited space because they are in the kitchen in a 6 x 6 ft or whatever space.
Every breeder needs to make choices of what works in their situation. Can you imagine having a litter of puppies in the house and a small child running around? Sorry I love my dogs but I also love my family and shouldn’t be expected to live in puppy poop for 8 weeks because someone else thinks that is how it should be.

Thank you "to each their own" that was very well said and I couldn't agree more!

Some of you are very cruel to raise your puppies away from fresh air and sunshine for most of any 24 hour period. I would never buy a puppy from someone who did not allow a puppy to explore, play freely, dig and get air and sun. Not allowing a puppy to be a puppy is cruel.

You had rather see a Hawk carry off a 4 or 5 week old puppy. That would be good fresh air. Sure most get them out when older and safe.

I run shade cloth over the top of our outside pens, this keeps them safe from predators but still allows sun and fresh air.
And I have seen a 15 lb chicken picked up by a red tail hawk, they could grab a pup no problem mistaking him for a fat rabbit

Criteria can be set by Dr. Dunbar or anyone...inside, stimulated, etc, but that does not mean that the spirit of the criteria has been met. I think that what is most important is how the puppies are. If you see a happy, healthy, well-adjusted puppy, then the breeder is doing a good job. Common sense.
A