Just wondering which you choose, in general, when you are showing to All Breed judges?

It depends on which dog I am showing. Some don't mind stacking, but some just look better free baited. I guess I use a cross between the two, especially if I know that the one I am showing would look better with (ie) a tighter lead, etc. At this point in time - I am not doing that many all rounders anymore.

Depends on the dog.... If the dog looks better freebaiting then do that.... Most (i said most) allbreed judges want to see the labrador freebaited...

If the dog looks better stacked, then do that....

Jen

FREE BAIT is stacking. I do not have any skills when it comes to hand stacking. As such, I free bait all the time.

If the judge at an all-breed is offended - then so be it. Why play down to a judge, the judge should play UP to us. The dogs look better on a loose lead and freely stacked. The judges need to learn this is how labs are shown best.

Watch a couple of breeds before your class. See what the professional handlers do. They know what each judge wants to see and they do what they have to do to win.
I went under and all rounder that ONLY wanted the dogs Hard hand stacked. He said so when we came in. I wondered if he was trying to single out the breeder/owners that generally show free style? I train my dogs for both and do whatever the judge seems to want or what makes my dog look better against what I am competing against that day.

Free Stack..............show them the way they are meant to be shown. If the judjes dont like it, educate them

First... I hate to get nit pickey because I DO understand what you mean in general... there are only about a dozen "all-breed" judges alive today. I'm sure what you probably mean are non-breeder judges. Or perhaps you just mean judges at all-breed shows rather than specialties, but I do understand the jist of the question. You might want to consider another term than all-breed judges, because it really isn't what you are after. Don't beat me over the head for the suggestion, please.

2. Since your objective is to WIN, show the dog the way that judge seems to do the best job judging. That means if you have not already presented to that person before, you will want to watch how other breeds are judged and what traits seem to be rewarded. That should tell you whether you need to put hands on and hold the tail or just stand and bait.

3. Again, the objective is to win. Show the dog how the DOG looks best. Some are fine with a natural stance - some are not. If the dog tends to stand toe out or hock in or too stretched out or ..... you get the idea.... then doing SOME hand stacking will help the dog to look its best and keep some of the minor flaws from becoming so obvious.

3. So, overall do what works for the DOG and be alert to what appeals to the JUDGE. If you train the dog to do either one, you will always be ready when your dog is having a bad day or the judge wants a specific silhouette. That's the way the pros do it... maybe that is why they seem to have an edge

I just noticed I have two number "3" items in the list. Obviously, I am number challenged today - maybe from being kicked around too much yesterday. Sorry for my confusion.

Right now, my yearling looks MUCH better free stacked so that's what I do. Now, that's not to say that I leave out all of the other handler nuances with the rest of our go. Many handlers win for a reason, they SHOW the dog better than a lot of owner/handlers. Sorry, but it's true. I am speaking specifically to All Breed Shows. It's all in the details - that's where handlers are head and shoulders above. Just a few differences that I observed this past weekend:

Handlers dress for success, like they take showing the dog seriously vs. many (not all) others who are wearing sloppy, distracting outfits and whose overall appearance does not look like they came to win. Of course the dog is being judged, but they just don't look like they are PROUD to be showing their dog!

Handlers plan their down and back and go round properly. They don't stop so close to judge so that s/he has to step back to get a picture of the dog. They use the entire area space in a fluid motion rather than cutting corners, etc. Also, they actually make sure that the dog is being gaited straight away from and toward the judge. It seems that some folks just think that it is the judge’s job to move to where their dog decides to run!

And on the topic of gaiting. Most handlers know if a certain dog looks better being gaited a little faster/slower, etc. This is true with puppies especially. So often they need a little help to get moving well because they are still growing. I saw a gorgeous pup this weekend that just needed to be moved out a little bit and would have done much better.

Finally, the biggest difference I see is with the exam. A handler can manage the exam of a nervous pup and help the judge to think that the pup is an old pro. When I see a dog pull back on the bite exam or collapse under the judges hands I know that almost without exception, that a handler could have managed the exam better. Here me to say, puppies are going to have a bad go where there are just getting experience or maybe the owner/handler is new to the ring and is just learning. No problem there at all. Everyone has to start somewhere. But when someone who has clearly been around for awhile brings a pup in that is not at all prepared for the ring and then doesn’t at least put it under a handler for the first few times to help s/he gain some confidence, it’s just like flushing your money down the toilet. How can the judge JUDGE the dog, if they can’t even touch and see him in a semi-relaxed state? You have automatically lost points on the temperament question. The judge doesn't know what a great personality your dog has at home in your living room.

And then of course, there is the ring side rolling of eyes and snickering when the handler’s dog wins the class, when "clearly" it was not the best in the ring. How much good energy is wasted on this scenario that I have seen play out over and over again?

I free bait for the main part but hand stack for the exam. If the competition is tough (talking about showing a special) I may hand stack to give a cleaner outline for the judge.

I hand stack more in the group ring because the handlers are stacking the Retrievers and Setters around me. I always make sure the Group judge gets to see the dog free baiting at least once or twice so the natural balance shows.

Great point Cathy! A little of both is great. :)

Sure, go ahead and do it your way. After all you are in charge. The judge only thinks he/she is in charge. You should try to teach that dope a thing or two. It will only cost you an entry fee, gas and a lost day. And you will feel smugly superior that the stupid judge did not see your fabulous dog just because the judge has his/her idea of how they like to see a dog presented. That's why you entered, isn't it? To teach the stupid judges a thing or two.

Ideally, I'd agree with Labr: "Free Stack..............show them the way they are meant to be shown. If the judjes dont like it, educate them "
But from a practical perspective ( and personal experience) I agree with Maureen and others - hand stack the dog if that is what the judge wants. I took reseve with a lovely bitch a few years ago who stacked herself perfectly. There was no need to put a finger on her. But......... the judge didn't like free-baited dogs and I know that for sure because he told me that when we were taking pictures. He actually told me that he didn't like the breeders free-baiting and that I'd have won with that bitch if I'd hand stacked her. Now, I have 2 choices for the future. I can decide that I won't enter under that judge again or I can choose to hand stack my dogs when I'm showing to him. My husband and I don't agree on the course of action. He wants that judge on our "Do not show to list" but I don't. The judge can find a nice labrador and when I have a dog that I think this man likes I'll show to him and hand stack my dog.
Another point about hand stacking vs free- baiting: I've found that even dogs that normally free bait may need to be hand- stacked occasionally. They move at the last minute and the judge is about to go over your dog or sometimes the dog is just not "on his game" and his/her free stacking isn't presenting the best picture.

"Sure, go ahead and do it your way. After all you are in charge. The judge only thinks he/she is in charge. You should try to teach that dope a thing or two. It will only cost you an entry fee, gas and a lost day. And you will feel smugly superior that the stupid judge did not see your fabulous dog just because the judge has his/her idea of how they like to see a dog presented. That's why you entered, isn't it? To teach the stupid judges a thing or two."

I'm not sure who this particular comment is directed to.

If it's me I'm wondering if you can tell me you have an all-breed Best In Show ribbon hanging on your wall?

The way you show your dog should be what makes it look best, not the way any particular judge wants to see it.

I think too many people free bait their dogs in such a way that the dogs look blah with either cow or sickle hocks. The dog needs to be trained to free bait so that it keeps it's head level - how many of you hold your bait by your waist to cause the dog to have to look up? This causes wrinkles across the withers and shortens the look of the neck rather than showing the correct shoulder and length of neck. The ears usually lay better when the head is level. Tilting up can make the ears look like they are set on incorrectly.
Teaching the dog to lean forward towards the bait tightens the topline and shows how the front assembly is put together. Teach the dog to do that with you at least a foot away from it. Free baiting into your crotch doesn't make the prettiest picture.

I also think it depends on what the judge wants. I know most of our dogs look better free baited but when you are at a show and when it's time for your dog to be gone over and the judge specifically says,"Don't bait your dog when I am examining him(her)", I was taught to do what the judge says. I would never tell them otherwise. Please correct me if I am wrong.
This just happened to us at the Rose City Cluster.

Just a thought here, wouldn't it be SO much easier if the judges just TOLD us when we entered the ring what they would like in terms of method of stacking???????

I do a mixture of both myself.

Frequently, I have heard judges ask us NOT to hand stack in the ring...I like that because I am one breeder/owner/handler that thinks Labradors look best free baited

the judge specifically says,"Don't bait your dog when I am examining him(her)"

I have had to say this to quite a few exhibitors. It is first a safety issue. If the dog is used to being fed during the examination, you never know when it will try to "munch" the judge's fingers. The dog will tend to follow the hand that is closest for food also - which is a real mess if you are trying to examine the head, shoulders with the dog bending around trying to see if you have food in your hand. I would HOPE that most experienced exhibitors will keep control of the dog's head during the exam - the body usually follows. Holding the collar is much preferred (by judges) to holding a piece of bait in front of the nose. Next time you have a class or club practice session, try playing judge with a dog that thinks your hands are its snack source

Hi,

What is the easiest/best way to teach a dog to lean forward when free baiting? I have a young dog who likes to free bait but just ruins his whole outline because his weight is not up over his front and he's not leaning forward. He puts all four feet in the correct place but is almost posting.

I have a couple of dogs that just don't let me stack them and they are experts at free-baiting. The only thing I do to "fool" the judge into thinking that the dog was stacked is to take the collar at the last moment and use the bait to make that topline and arch of neck look their best.

Why hand stack the dog if all 4 legs are exactly where you want them to be.

I also completely agree with the poster that mentioned about the speed, straight lines etc. that a lot of the owner/handlers are not aware of. Judge a couple of funmatches or even help at a handling class and you will learn quickly how bad some people can make their dogs look. And with just a few changes how much better that same dog looks.

There are only a few of my dogs that I will move at the same speed all the time. Usually I move them slower on the down and back then the go-around. Again which speed does your dog look their best.

Els

I have a boy who liked to lean back like he was going to launch for the free bait - I just kept at it.
Told him to "stretch" and guided his front feet a bit towards me with the bait and when he balanced out, he got a "good boy" and his treat.
He learned VERY quickly

I agree with you Maureen, I heard what the judge had said to other exhibitors, so I didn't bait. When she went over my pup I just went to the head and stood with my hands on either side of her face. My older dogs, I can fake out and basically "air" bait them but occasionally I get a wiggle worm and bait helps. Sometimes I have so much under my nails I don't need any more!

I like to see dogs free baited. A well balanced dog will set themselves up. They need to be taught to hold the pose though with ears up, head level and up on thier fronts. (Take your bait and hold it about hip level then tear it or fool with it so they lean up and put their ears up.) I do not like to see exhibitors set up a dog unless it is when I am going to examine it. I also like to see a dog moved on a loose lead. A dog that is set up and strung up makes me think they are trying to hide something. This does require some training which should be done at home and not in the ring, hopefully. Puppies are allowed to act up, but it really helps if the person on the end of the leash has had some handling classes. As long as the puppy stands for a minute so you can tell what they look like.

My, my. Cathy is sensitive. I had to look back to see what she said.

No Cathy, that was not directed to anyone in particular.

I would love to hear more from judges about their preferences on this subject.

Free or hand stacked?

Bait or no bait?

First of all, the OP asked about *All Breed judges* not *non-breeder judges* They were particular with their words.

*The way you show your dog should be what makes it look best, not the way any particular judge wants to see it.*

If that's the case, be prepared not to win & I don't think you alone will educate the judge. Why do breeders go to the website of lab breeder-judges? To see what they have and like. Why do they look at what & who they've put up in the past? The same reason. It's good to learn about the judge before deciding to show your dog to them.

If the judge is truly looking at the *dog end of the lead* & if you want to win, you need to show them what they want & like to see. If it happens to be free stacking, you might win or be put up. If it's the opposite and you free stack you won't.

*Free Stack..............show them the way they are meant to be shown. If the judjes dont like it, educate them *

The only way you'll educate a judge that is expecting the wrong thing from you & your dog is for ALL in the ring to do the same. Hell if that will happen! The pro-handlers will stand on their heads or sit on their asses if that's what they think the judge wants.

*And then of course, there is the ring side rolling of eyes and snickering when the handler’s dog wins the class, when "clearly" it was not the best in the ring. How much good energy is wasted on this scenario that I have seen play out over and over again?*

I agree with you but it happens all the time & isn't going to end.

This is my opinion, I'm only 1 little person & nothing a certain person will say can change my mind......

Maybe you're new and don't understand that an "all Breed" judge is one lisenced to judge ALL BREEDS.
Maureen is old school and although not always tactful, she was correcting the usage of the term.
Maureen, I understand your correction but sometimes just saying nothing is the road to take.
People tend to get very defensive when corrected constantly and lose sight of the original point.

OP, I think the term you are looking for here is "all arounder"........

"Maybe you're new and don't understand that an "all Breed" judge is one lisenced to judge ALL BREEDS."

If that was meant for me, no I am not new at all. I do understand that an All Breed Judge is licensed to judge ALL BREEDS. If I were new and didn't understand it, I would appreciate the information. I am sure some people newer in the breed do.

"First of all, the OP asked about *All Breed judges* not *non-breeder judges* They were particular with their words."

Well, then there is little to discuss. There are only about 12 All-Breed approved judges for AKC shows. Many judges have a few groups, but a very small (and typically old) bunch hold the honor of being approved for ALL BREEDS. That is why I suggested a different terminology.

My mistake... I was only half right. There are 25 judges that can accept assignments for all breeds, although one is still provisional in half a group and several others are provisional for the newer breeds. They are a varied bunch and include a few that are Retriever specialists. That means that each of them will have a different preference in how a dog is presented. If "LabbieBreeder" is correct and the OP meant PRECISELY all-breed judges, I think the question would have to be more specific to get a valid answer as to whether hand stacking or free baiting is a preference for each of the 25. Since I have shown under all of them at some time (and have photos of wins with nearly all in my albums), I would be glad to offer my impression of each - if the OP is genuinely interested. Contact me privately and I will be glad to assist.

Frankly, I though it was more a general question about non-breeder judges at all-breed shows, but then I could be wrong - as LabbieBreeder seems to think.

"Maureen, I understand your correction but sometimes just saying nothing is the road to take. "

Please.... lead by example.

Really? That is the response I get?? I thought you would appreciate that I was trying to be NICE to you Maureen.

Really??? I didn't think your suggestion to basically "shut up" was very nice. My comments about the difference in "all-breed" and "non-breeder" judges at least addressed the topic instead of publicly chastising a specific person. I guess we have a difference in definition on what is NICE. I thought my reply was appropriate - if you think it is best for people to not say anything, then DON'T.

OP. I think everyone knew exactly what your were asking. Maureen just had to let us all know how clever, intelligent, and insufferable she is.

I gave my best answer for either interpretation of the OP's question - that may be clever and intelligent, but I don't know how it qualifies as insufferable. If you "suffer" through my posts, don't read them - your choice. Either way, stick to the topic and offer something constructive, since you know exactly what the OP was asking. How do YOU think a dog should be presented under your interpretation of the question??

Jen, I am surprised you said that as I don't think I have ever seen you free bait for all breed judges. Maybe you just want us to do it so you can beat us!

People who directly criticize the personality of another under the cover of anonymity are gutless.

For those who think judges are stupid and the standard is stupid, why do you participate in this sport?

For all, please remember that many of these dogs being shown are so well trained that a free stack is anything but free.

I wish more people would watch dogs move on a loose lead. Stacking is nice, but movement and stacking together gives you the total picture. My point is that in labs, stacking has become more important than movement and I do not agree that it should be that way.

Maureen do you spend all day posting on forums?
Where do you get all that time?!

Maureen do you spend all day posting on forums?
I can't sit at my computer that long writing, much less reading! Just wondering.

My take, I agree with you about movement. A Labrador is more than just a pretty silhouette.

I haven't quite figured out why almost every thread turns into cat fight. I can only imagine how many people are afraid to post after seeing many of us being abused by other people on the list. If you don't like an opinion it is simple enough to state yours in such a way that it is a discussion and not an attack.

The reason the dogs look so much better with professional handlers is exactly that "THEY ARE PROFESSIONALS". They show dogs everyday all day and if they are not making the dogs look absolutely awesome, then there is something very wrong. The rest of us are owner/handlers showing our dogs as a hobby and trying to have some fun.

Clearlly, the same place YOU do

"My take, I agree with you about movement. A Labrador is more than just a pretty silhouette. "

My perspective in every breed I judge is that the silhouette should not change dramatically between standing still and moving. The dog that presents a proper balance standing (whether hand set or naturally) should ALSO maintain that balance and outline when moving at the speed that is required in the show ring. It is sometimes amazing to see that lovely topline turn into something expected on an inchworm - or a sagging old horse. Some dogs bunch up and even look uncomfortable on the move or do other things to manage their lack of balance. The dog that makes the same outline standing AND in motion is what you are after - at least in my ring.

I speed read and type really fast - that is why there are so many typos in my posts

I just cannot figure out why Maureen seems to always be the target of the nastiest people on this forum. Is it because she is willing to keep coming back for more... generously sharing her knowledge and expertise despite the unrelenting personal attacks? Is it because she is clearly very experienced and knowledgeable and that threatens some people? Or is it simply because she has strong opinions and stands up for what she believes and that is threatening to some people? Whatever the reason, any personal attack on someone who is merely taking their time to post something in an effort to help educate others is absolutely disgusting in my opinion.

Maureen, please know that there are some of us who appreciate your willingness to try to teach and share information. I know you stopped posting here for awhile but have been pulled back in because you really do have good information to share. I hope you will not be driven away again by the nasty comments.

to quote myself...

"movement and stacking together gives you the total picture"

...which is why it is not a big deal to me which way a person "stacks" their dogs. My slight preference is for "free" stacking, however.

Yes Maureen, don't listen to the peanut gallery. It is an honor to learn from an AKC judge who is willing to take the time to share their knowledge of the breed and the happenings in the show ring.

Gee, thanks for the support.