This may seem like a silly question, but how many stud dog owners actually stipulate in their agreements that all pups not being kept personally by the breeder(s) go on Limited Registration? Wouldn't that be a prudent thing to do??

The reason I ask is that someone contacted me late last night (a pet person who came across my website) trying to sell **ME** a dog out of 'their' champion English lines...all for a mere $250. I'm still stunned at the audacity (and pedigree!!) that this individual has.

I don't know that it would be enforceable. I have always felt that the pups were theirs to place as they see fit. Another reason to know the bitch owner well enough to know they would place the pups prudently.

In my opinion, it is the bitch owner that should decide how the pups go out. The stud owner has the right to not let them use a boy if they don't like a breeder's policy, but they can't expect a breeder to have to sell on limited.

I have in mine that the only puppies to go on full is to the bitch owner, AND if she/he would decide to place that puppy later that it is fixed before doing so if already registered as full.
Also, i get names and addresses to where the puppies go.
I saw a litter of puppies in the paper while i was traveling and called these people to be nosey, both mom and dad were champ sired and the puppies were only 200.00. The breeders of both the mom and dad did NOT own the female, therefore placing them wherever they could on full.
Sorry If they dont like my stud contract, they can go somewhere else, more trouble than its worth for sure and we MUST protect those babies.

I try to control AND educate people who use my stud dog. If I don't like the feeling I get from anybody, I just say he is too busy.

I think every breeders with good lines and pedigree that they have worked hard for shouldnt stud their dog out to anyone that they do not know, someone that cared and would place them as we would, go for it, otherwise, let them find a stud somewhere else or spay the female.
The people who want those "first and only litter" litters can find another dog as Im not taking that chance. Unless they would put me down as co-owner of the girl and I could limit papers and i dont see that happening very often.

I know most of my fellow club members take the attitude that they are only "selling semen" , and that is where their responsibility ends.
I really cannot hold onto the same idea , I do sell semen, but I want my dog's name and pedigree protected. I detest seeing that "Champion sired" phrase in the newspaper, and my kennel will never be on the other end of that. That stud dog money will never be that important to me.

Common sense needs to injected into the equation here. Remember as a stud owner, unless you are willing to go to court not only with the owner of the bitch but the owner of each and every puppy, the only thing you have control over is who your dog is bred to.
And just to add 'fuel to the fire' remember that everyone can follow those stud agreement rules and then turn around and register the puppies in another registry and get full, not limited, registration, regardless of what AKC papers say.

from a previous reply.....and I agree


**"If they don't like my stud contract, they can go somewhere else, more trouble than its worth for sure"**




My attitude has become... try to educate "new ppl".....and/or to deal with only those "less than new ppl" that I trust.

I am trying to get my head around this thread and keep running into the same problem. What PRECISELY is the problem? Is it that the people aren't asking as high a price as you do? If the quality of the puppies is nice and they are raised well to 8 weeks, I guess I don't see the real issue. In both posts condeming the practice of letting people who breed to a dog determine the future of their pups, the main complaint has been the price of the pups. What's it to you?

If I want to sell mine for $200 or give them away, how is that a detriment to you as the stud owner? How is it harmful to the breed? I just don't get all the reasons for wanting to control what OTHER people do with the sperm from your dog - particularly another generation down the line. I, personally, wouldn't want pups from my dog sold in pet shops, but it is my responsibility to screen those who want to use my stud dog. If an individual that seems honest and caring with a bitch that is nice enough to be acceptable to me decides to ask a low price for well-reared pups to individual, screened owners.....how is that an affront to me? How is it any of my business?????

I suggest that those who want to control what other people do with their dog's sperm just keep the sperm at home. Once it leaves, it is out of your control.

I think common sense was part of the equation, in all fairness. And while I do agree that people will ultimately find a way to circumvent the system if they truly want to, this was an AKC registered dog I was called about. The larger issue at hand is the fact that some people clearly don't practice what they preach.

And taking in the full scope of the current anti breeder legislation coming down the pipes daily, if we aren't DEMANDING that all pets be put on limited registration on both stud and bitch ends (and at the *very least* through AKC)....don't we then become a part of the larger problem?

Now I admittedly don't have a stud, but if I did....I would not simply want to be in the business of selling semen. I would want to know that all pets produced from my boy would go out on limited reg. And as a bitch owner now, I even go so far as to have all of my buyers send me proof of spay/neuter. While it is added time, paperwork, emails.....isn't that our responsiblity as 'ethical' breeders to make sure it does get done? Because if we don't do it.....who will?? JMHO

Maybe the same complaint you made to a friend of mine a few years back Maureen, How on earth did she get a dog to breed out of ONE of YOUR DOGS, you were all over her about that. So i guess if you kept your sperm at home you wouldnt have to have been so mean to a really nice person and breeder. Ring a bell? It should mean alot to you as YES my friend takes care of her dog, but what about the others in the litter and where they ended up?

Maureen,

It was not the price at all. It was the fact that this was a nice pedigree in the hands of a pet person who obviously knew nothing.....and further had the gall to call me at 10pm to try and schlep this puppy off on me for a 'bargain' price.

My intent (apparently not clear enough for some) was to stimulate discussion on the merits of whether or not it was feasible for a stud owner to have a limited reg. agreement for pets with the bitch owners prior to breedings. I know as a bitch owner I would gladly agree to do so without hesitation!!!!! So please, dismount your high horse. Thanks!

I certainly don't remember anything at all like that... if you would like to read me chapter and verse by private email, it might jog my memory. I may have asked how someone happened to get a dog from my breeding, but how is that "mean"? I suspect she just took it really wrong. My point is that what people do with the sperm is really out of your control. If you don't like it, then keep it at home.

Years ago I sold a beautiful, nearly finished dog to a proven show home. They finished the dog and THEN proceeded to stud it out to puppy producers in the area. I can't tell you how many calls I got around that time from people who bought a pup sired by that dog from a pet shop in some other part of the country. Did I like it???? Not a bit. Did I have any control over it? NO. Stud contracts are about useless once the sperm are out of the dog

"My intent (apparently not clear enough for some) was to stimulate discussion on the merits of whether or not it was feasible for a stud owner to have a limited reg. agreement for pets with the bitch owners prior to breedings. I know as a bitch owner I would gladly agree to do so without hesitation!!!!!"

NO "horsing" around... I think it is futile. It is unenforceable and I, personally, think it is insulting to the bitch owner. If you do not trust that person to care for the pups and place them responsibly, don't do the breeding. If you do service the bitch, it is really out of your hands beyond that point. My number one rule is don't do business with people you don't trust. Even at that, you sometimes misread people and trust the wrong ones. Life goes on.

I have sort of taken on mentoring people that ended up with dogs from my breeding they acquired via third parties. It is probably the most responsible thing I can do after the fact. If I let others try their hand at breeding with my stock, then I feel my experience should extend to the next generation as much as possible. I can't control where those dogs go in the future generations, but I can become a resource to help guide their owners. It is the best I can do and still let others enjoy their autonomy.

I just don't see how it is insulting if it is supposed to be a 'given'. But thank you for your thoughtful response

It don't think it is a given that people who breed a litter have to place all their pups on limited registration with spay/neuter agreements. How would the breed have ever propogated or diversified if everyone had that attitude? I think it is a given expectation that breeders place pups carefully or responsibly. If I want to sell one of my dogs to another breeder (or even give it away!), then that is my choice - not the stud owner's. What you are asking is that nobody EVER allow their own lineage out of their back yard. It is not reasonable - or even advisable. How can the GOOD genes spread through the breed if everyone places ONLY on spay/neuter agreements????? Think it through.

The insult to a breeder with that sort of stud agreement is that YOU do not feel they are qualified to determine what should be done with THEIR breeding, much less yours

"...if we aren't DEMANDING that all pets be put on limited registration on both stud and bitch ends (and at the *very least* through AKC)....don't we then become a part of the larger problem? "

I do not take issue with this statement per se. It is NOT where you started in this discussion. Initially you thought that persons using a stud should place ALL puppies with limited registration, not just pets. Only those kept for themselves should have full registration. This means that none of the pups - regardless of quality - can go to another home to be shown or bred.

I think this is unrealistic - and certainly doesn't indicate that you are confident there will be several show-quality pups in the litter It sounds more like "restraint of trade" to tell a breeder that their offspring can not go to other breeders. That is my big objection to the idea. One always HOPES to get several (or many) excellent pups from a breeding and most people can not keep all the good ones when that happens. Sometimes the quality is in the males and a breeder is not set up to keep males. There are many reasons why a GOOD quality pup should go to another breeder or exhibitor without the stud owner getting into the issue.

Again, it is a matter of trust - don't do business with people you don't trust and you will not feel the need to micro-manage THEIR business as well as your own

I see so many people jump all over Maureen Gamble for her posts. Although I can see that she does come across a bit "holier than thou" many times I also think she has some knowledge and experience to offer. If you don't want to read what she writes don't. However, we all must realize that people in dogs have different lives and are different people. My guess is that Maureen has dedicated a huge portion of her life to dogs and like many she has found herself caught up spending hours a day looking for someone to pass along her knowledge to. Unfortunately it is not always welcome or appreciate. Perhaps there is a newbie or someone out there that Maureen could mentor. That would give her a way to 'vent' and invest herself and I am certain there are plenty of people that need and want to learn.

Clearly the masses do not appreciate Maureen's opinions and most refuse to even listen. Maureen - save your time here on the forum and find you someone who will appreciate what you have to offer.

I am very careful who uses my stud. I always ask that they sell pups on Limited. But from what I hear you can not inforce it. Some are crazy and let them go on full. Sad since we have done all the work and they just ride on our coat tails. I sure sell all mine on Limited, not for the stud owner but for me.

Just how do you ignore her? She comments on almost every topic here. You're right on one thing. Maybe we don't want her opinion. I think if her dogs were well known and in the top winners and producers consistently then alot of us would think differently and pay attention to her. Who the heck is she? I couldn't point her out if I had to. "Full of hot air" is what I see on here. You had the "holier than thou" part right!
Technical Coordinator? For what? Labeled that by whom?

Some people are content to keep their ignorance hidden... but you clearly like to shout it out to everyone by not having a clue about anyone outside of your own little world. Grow up... get acquainted with people - all kinds of people. There is much to be learned about life and dogs by having an open mind AND heart! Just because someone is not the current hi-roller with money to campaign the top winner, that doesn't mean they have no value. You demonstrate your own ignorance as well as a "money and privilege" arrogance in your post.

"Clearly the masses do not appreciate Maureen's opinions and most refuse to even listen. Maureen - save your time here on the forum and find you someone who will appreciate what you have to offer."

I didn't post her for many years because I thought it was a little like "casting pearls before swine" But then I kept getting private posts from people who did appreciate what I offered and asked for in-depth information about topics based on comments I made. I finally figured that those who don't have an open mind, don't want to learn or don't want to discuss a subject shouldn't keep others from exploring their interests. Trying to limit discussion on a topic is like shouting at the wind - useless and a waste of energy. If I don't have anything to contribute, I just read and LEARN. If I do have something to say, I have as much right to say it as the next person - and generally have put a lot more years of experience and consideration into it.

I will continue to post when and where I think appropriate (whether others read it or not) - and defend the right of others to do so as long as they stick to the topic. I post on about 1 topic in 10 - and usually only if I have some technical information on the subject or a differing opinion based on 40 years experience(like this topic). You are free to agree, disagree or nit-pick. However, that doesn't give ANYONE license to make personal slurs or question the right of another to post. THOSE actions show the pettyness and complete lack of maturity of the writer.

Hi, Maureen. Would it be possible for you to use a last name or initial? That way you can avoid getting some my overflow crap that people like to generate

First of all, I, for one, appreciate Maureen's knowledge. She has been in dogs a looooong time is well educated. I have learned a lot from her. AND she uses her real name.

Why don't you people stop hiding behind alias names and other peoples names and come out of hiding? Have you been in the breeding game for 30 or 40 years? How much experience have you had? A LOT of knowlege comes experience.

Secondly, if you don't like Maureen's comments, then don't read them, and quit being so damn ugly. We are all here for a common reason, and that is to learn about Labs, breeding, showing, obedience, health matters, etc. If you don't have anything nice to say, please be quiet.

BTW, I used my own name.

Oh, I have been breeding dogs for about 40 years (not just Labs), but I don't know it all, so how can you?

Please go on vacation so we can all get some relief.
When was that?

And so how can she know it all Gail?
None of us come on here and act like we're "God" except her.
It's sickening.

I didn't say she knows it all, and I really don't think she thinks so to, either, but she knows a LOT more than most of us and is just trying to help out. Is there anything wrong with that?

Try reading constructive comments with a more positive attitude. Quit being so negative.

No thanks.

Be sure to point her out to me at a Specialty when you see her next.

I seldom attend specialties since I stopoped showing my own dogs. I will be going to Potomac next month and would be glad to meet you - as long as you are glad to meet me

That will BE my vacation!

I for one, think that Maureen knows a lot more than most of the people being so negative and downright rude to her comments. I would love to sit and talk with Maureen, as far as the rest of you, I would probably be very hesitant to talk to, because of the high horse attitude you show on this forum.

I bet I am on track when I say that the people who bash Maureen are just annoyed by her comments due to the fact that she knows about genetics, clearances,and the importance of good breeding habits. The ones that tend to be rude are most likely BYB'ers who do no clearances, have lines that Maureen wouldnt touch with a 10ft. pole and dont know crap about anything but making the old mighty dollar.
Ive found in my days there's only a few reason people behave that way, Jealousy and pure ignorance.
I would think Maureen could go and enjoy the Potomac as this person who wants her to be pointed out would think the Potomac in nothing more than a river. If so, may i suggest you get in your dingy and paddle your way out of site- no one cares what your opinions are or what stupid statements you make.
I dont know Maureen, but would feel privleged if I did. If i would see her at a dog show, i would sneak up behind her, stick my laptop USB cord in her ear and HOPE its possible to download all dog info she has stored in her brain into it . Ive actually thought of calling or emailing her but have been scared to, I think she would be one heck of a mentor, a harsh one-maybe, but wouldnt hesitate to tell you how it is.

"Initially you thought that persons using a stud should place ALL puppies with limited registration, not just pets."

This is precisely what I said, "to stimulate discussion on the merits of whether or not it was feasible for a stud owner to have a limited reg. agreement for **pets** with the bitch owners prior to breeding." To me, a pet is a pet is a pet- not a show prospect.

Naturally the breeder(s) are going to need/utilize full reg. and keep back the show quality prospects for themselves, fellow breeders, and co-ownerships. But I think that the dialogue for limited registration for the REST of puppies needs to take place BEFORE a breeding. That way both are on the same page about each other’s goals/ethics and informed decisions can be made accordingly- stud fee versus peace of mind.

But every day I have to cling to the notion that there are in fact good, honorable people in our breed who would rather put something out there on a limited reg. (knowing that they CAN in fact change it after necessary criteria have been met), versus those who blindly sell on full to those they don't know or trust. That is the short and skinny of it.

I'll be the first one to say that any and all bashing on this thread (or ANY other for that matter!!) is out of place. I myself (yes I ADMIT it!) was probably out of line with my 'high horse' comment to Maureen. So if I offended her, or anyone else reading that comment, I apologize. You see........it can be done!

But it is only through CONSTRUCTIVE dialogue that we do learn, can share opinions/perspectives, and strive to protect the breed we love. That's what I want, works for me

Curious- Amen on that. You are right!
Wouldnt it be nice to share opinions without bringing someones mother into it all the time

Maureen doesn't deserve the crap she gets on this forum.

Maureen,

It sounds as if there are some people who certainly would love to have you as a mentor. Perhaps you could extend that invitation? Not that you can't post on the forum - you certainly have as much right as anyone. But you have more knowledge than is being appreciated and USED on this forum. It sounds like people just hear your name and have grown so intolerant of you that they don't want to listen to what you have to say - good, bad, right or wrong. Too bad. But seriously - why not offer your abundance of knowledge and experience to those who WANT IT?

I am always open to conversation with those who want to discuss any aspect of dogdom - or about any other interesting topic. If I don't know about the subject, I will bust my butt to help find information for someone

Actually, what you PRECISELY said initially was:
"This may seem like a silly question, but how many stud dog owners actually stipulate in their agreements that all pups not being kept personally by the breeder(s) go on Limited Registration? Wouldn't that be a prudent thing to do??"

This was what I felt needed some discussion. I agree that pets should be on limited reg, but not ALL pups not being kept personally by the breeder. I think we have a meeting point in our discourse and don't really disagree in essence. I just thought the statement quoted above was unrealistic and "protectionist". It did not reflect a mutual respect for both breeder and stud owner.

We don't care. Not pleasant reading for any of us.
Call each other on the phone. Or on your kiddie phone. Very child like.

Well I for one agree with Maureen on the stud dog issue. I would draw issue with someone presenting a contract to me for anything that has to do with the resulting puppies. Over all our years I have only been presented with two stud contracts and all it laid out were the fees, when they were due, and what constituted a repeat breeding. All of of our others were verbal agreements which is honestly how we handle ours. As a stud dog owner I feel it is my responsibility to determine if I want to deal with a particular person or not. It certainly is not my responsibility to tell the bitch owner how to raise or sell those puppies. For my own reputation and our boys, i feel I have a responsibility to be sure I am dealing with a reputable person. Quite frankly 90% of the time I either know the person or know of them which makes it easy.
I can also attest Maureen WILL go out of her way to help anyone. More times that not, with all her years in dogs, most of the time she is knowledgable about what ever you want to know. It is not a problem disagreeing with this lady, but please show her the respect she disearves as I would guess if you add up the years of experience of all of those that have been rude to her on this thread, it will not equal hers alone. One of these days you might need some help or guidance. If you have burned your bridge it is tough to gain redemption.

I thought the topic was "For Stud Owners" ?

OP opened with:

"This may seem like a silly question, but how many stud dog owners actually stipulate in their agreements that all pups not being kept personally by the breeder(s) go on Limited Registration? Wouldn't that be a prudent thing to do??"

I thought I answered the question, We don't, I've never had one to do so, and JMO.........no it is not a prudent thing to do.

I have a stud dog and always require the pups to be sold on limited registration. I sell my pups as limited, and if I reverse the limited on the females, they are required to sell their pups on limited.

I personally appreciate Maureens opinion, she is very knowledgeable about many acpects of the Labradors and the health issues. I for one always look to see what her opinion is

I have never heard of such a thing!
If I was told those were the terms, I would look elsewhere myself.
If you can't trust I will do the right thing, whatever that may be, with MY pups, then we can't work together.
I consider that a red flag for future problems and would prefer not to deal with you.

I have been in Labs for almost 3 decades. I think I have the ability to decide how to place my puppies.
If I wanted to use a stud dog and this stipulation was in the contract I would look somewhere else.

There are 100 more studs out there better than yours and their owners would be glad to collect a stud fee from a responsible breeder with out treating me like a child or acting like a control freak.

*I have been in Labs for almost 3 decades. I think I have the ability to decide how to place my puppies.
If I wanted to use a stud dog and this stipulation was in the contract I would look somewhere else.

There are 100 more studs out there better than yours and their owners would be glad to collect a stud fee from a responsible breeder with out treating me like a child or acting like a control freak. *

Oh boy.

I have to agree with Maureen here also. If a stud dog owner and I trust each other enough to agree to the breeding in the first place, I feel they should also trust me to be responsible enough with placing the pups appropriately. No contract stipulations needed.

Maureen and I certainly don't agree on everything, but I would be honored to meet her and tap her brain someday.

"...and tap her brain someday"

As long as it is not with a frying pan

To those of you who see the name Maureen Gamble and immediately start with the insulting comments (all delivered anonymously of course), you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves!! If you don't want to know what she thinks,

DON'T READ HER BLOODY POSTS YOU IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!

It was nice to see some of you expressing support for her.

Why would you be afraid to approach Maureen for mentoring or advice? I have found in the couple of years that I read some of her posts on lists I subscribe to and certainly in the past year that I have been involved more intimately due to approaching her in order to purchase dogs to come to Australia that Maureen is not only very knowledgeable about Labradors and a number of other breeds, but she is very generous with her time and will do anything to help rather than hinder.

Maureen has on my behalf gone way above the call of duty to ensure that the dogs I have purchased have had all their necessary health tests (there are lots for importation to Australia) and went to extraordinary lengths to get my young boy out to Matt Hendrix for a month to attend some shows with him (Including Piedmont & Atlanta Specialties) I might add at this point that he was out of the ribbons only once during his stay with Matt. He had two wins and several excellent placings which should indicate that the dog is competitive at specialty level.

Maureen also undertook a long drive to The Garden City Kansas shows last weekend (I'm sure there were other things she could & would possibly rather be doing. but she did this for me a person she has yet to meet face to face). The weekend produced a Winner's bitch for the girl and two puppy class wins with the boy including a puppy of breed win on one day & a Reserve Winner's Dog on the next day. I'm guessing that this means that the two kids can hold their own in competition.

The upshot of all this is that you shouldn't knock someone you have never met.

I'm sorry if this has become rather lengthy and off topic, but I think that these things needed to be said.

I would further add that whether Maureen and myself had become involved with the sale of Yank and Vanna to me, I would have still felt the need to voice my concerns about how some of the folks here who insist on hiding behind pseudonyms have the gall to insult a lady who has nothing but the health and wellbeing of the breed at heart.

So endeth my chapter

have to agree with the fact that stud owners have the right to decide who to allow the dog to be bred to and should do their homework...... but I find it over controlling to require all pups to be sold on limited only.

With the amount of well bred labs in this country there are plenty to choose from.

I don't understand how some think they can make that decision for the bitch owner since it is her litter and her bitch. I don't require it, but I do hope that the bitch owners always sell on limited. It's not my place to decide that for them.

Why is it so many cannot embrace the diversity of opinions, experience and knowledge? Read what is written, absorb it how you want or don't want, and go on. Appreciate what is said as there is always something to be "gleaned" from what is written (good or bad). Quit bantering and recognize that diversity exists amongst us!!!

when I agree to a stud contract I require the bitch to have health clearances and a decent pedigree that will mess well with my boys.

I check out the breeders site, past puppies, past experiences, etc. before I agree to the breeding.
I would hope that the breeder would make wise choices in placing the puppies out of this litter, but I would never request "the breeder" to do something just because I do it.

what will you require next? mandatory dew claws, vaccine schedules, type of food fed, microchips???

Why doesn't Maureen start her OWN forum, so that those who want to "drink from the fountain" can do so, and those that don't - won't have to partake of that forum?

Would sure make things a lot less bickery on Jill's forum.

Extraneous comments (like yours) are what make this forum "bickery" - If everyone would just stick to the topic in the FIRST place, you won't get a lot of bickering!!!

Novel Idea! I love it.

And you just gave credibility to my suggestion of your own forum, Maureen - you chose to chastise MY post, but you have no comment about sticking to the topic for the posters who sing your praises?

Thanks for making the point I was trying to make crystal clear for everyone.

The problem I see here is that you as the owner of the stud are trying to control the bitch;s owner affairs.
I see your point trying to enforce responsible ownership and controling where your bloodlines end up, but what makes you different from the crazy people that are working on passing all these laws that are killing all our breeding endeavors.
How much is too much control?

If EVERYONE would stick to the topic, we would ALL be better able to discuss dogs --- me included That is the only suggestion that has any credibility. Let's try that for awhile and see how it works.

I think we, as stud owners should go up on our prices if so many want to sell all our pups on full to get more money or for breeding. We all work hard for our lines and I do pick and research who has ask to use my dog. I do ask that they sell pet puppys on Limited. I don't want to see my pedigrees on Labradoodles or silver. I don't think its to much to ask. We all have opinions on food, litters, stud dogs and everything else so each need do what we want. My thing has been selling on limited to help cut down the puppy population. JMHO

You had me until the last line...

I do believe that pet puppies should be sold on Ltd.
But not "to cut down on the puppy market" as you say.
Because PET QUALITY DOGS SHOULD NOT BE BRED, PERIOD.

Has nothing to do with a "market"!!

If a breeder has show quality puppies and can't keep them ALL, who are you to say they cannot be sold to other responsible breeders??

And if you allowed your stud to be used, my guess is you thought the bitch owner was responsible and therefore common sense would dictate she would also choose responsible owners for her pups, full or ltd.

<>

This is where we see differently for sure.
I paid your requested stud fee for service and sperm.... that is all.

The outcome of that service is not your decision, these are MY puppies not YOURS.