Labrador Retriever Forum
Hello,
First, I claim no expertise on breeding. I'm not a breeder, don't show dogs or do field competitions.
After my parents last yellow died (grew up with yellows) I was tasked to research finding a new lab.
To make a long story short, it's not easy finding breeders (quality breeders). Lots of kennel sites, some good, alot suspect. Lots of puppy sites loaded with advertisements, breeds, and listings of anyone willing to pay 19.99 a month or whatever.
After being disgusted with this experience, I decided to create a website myself to avoid some of these pitfalls. I created the website, very quickly some breeders posted their kennels. After about 15 breeders added their content, came to the realization that it's very difficult to control content and breeders (with my limited knowledge in breeding).
I shut the site down, let it sit there for awhile, then dicided to make another run at it. I removed most of the breeders on friday (whoa, got some angry phonecalls), and decided to only allow breeders by referral only.
Now here's my question...
If I only allowed breeders on the wiscoy list to post kennel information, would you find this of value?
I understand many breeders have waiting list and don't need more exposure. But I also know from first hand experience that many quality breeders are not showing up in google search results.
Before you blast me, I'm not out to make a buck. The site would be free. Hopefully more people searching for labs will be exposed to the quality breeders on this site, rather than just the bybs posted everywhere else.
You can take a look at the site, there's no way for breeders to register as it's locked down, but you'll see what I'm talking about.
The site is http://www.justlabbreeders.com
All inputs appreciated!
Have you seen these?
http://wiscoy.com/search.php
http://wiscoy.com/litterlistings.html
No offense, but I feel that your website is just another link. To be honest, Wiscoy's forum is very popular amongest the Labrador World, and the links shown above are exactly what you are seeming to try and provide in your site.
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Replying to:
Hello,
First, I claim no expertise on breeding. I'm not a breeder, don't show dogs or do field competitions.
After my parents last yellow died (grew up with yellows) I was tasked to research finding a new lab.
To make a long story short, it's not easy finding breeders (quality breeders). Lots of kennel sites, some good, alot suspect. Lots of puppy sites loaded with advertisements, breeds, and listings of anyone willing to pay 19.99 a month or whatever.
After being disgusted with this experience, I decided to create a website myself to avoid some of these pitfalls. I created the website, very quickly some breeders posted their kennels. After about 15 breeders added their content, came to the realization that it's very difficult to control content and breeders (with my limited knowledge in breeding).
I shut the site down, let it sit there for awhile, then dicided to make another run at it. I removed most of the breeders on friday (whoa, got some angry phonecalls), and decided to only allow breeders by referral only.
Now here's my question...
If I only allowed breeders on the wiscoy list to post kennel information, would you find this of value?
I understand many breeders have waiting list and don't need more exposure. But I also know from first hand experience that many quality breeders are not showing up in google search results.
Before you blast me, I'm not out to make a buck. The site would be free. Hopefully more people searching for labs will be exposed to the quality breeders on this site, rather than just the bybs posted everywhere else.
You can take a look at the site, there's no way for breeders to register as it's locked down, but you'll see what I'm talking about.
The site is http://www.justlabbreeders.com
All inputs appreciated!
Websites are able to show up in Google search, if you have the right keywords inputted into your html coding, and if your kennel is a popular one, it will show up in the search results. The more your website is clicked, the higher it gets on the search results
Catherine:
I am also nervous at the amount you are depending on the WWW for your Labrador Pup search.
Why not go to a show (such as Potomac etc), talk to breeders, get a business card, then go home and check out the WWW.
You cant get a feel for a person through a website, and to be honest unless the photographer is that good, you will not see the best of a dog that you could see in person.
If you are looking for "perfect" breeders with perfect website contents, then i suggest you remove the site you put up as well. What one dont like on my site would be ok to someone else, vise versa. OR the site you think is really great,nice labs, may be nothing but a puppy mill.
Ill just leave my advertising with Jill on Wiscoy, the only one i put my site on-thanks.
Yeah, open up to Wiscoy forum people and find out most people want to call half of them "puppy mills" HA! So much for that.
If you REALLY want to know a good breeder. Visit their HOME (don't hear what people "call them") look at their dogs, look at their show record.
In my opinion, its all up for grabs. I've heard some of the most respected show breeders called "names" (oh yes, the dreaded pM word)because someone wants to bad mouth them.
What you "hear" or "think" is not always the truth.
Many are "pre-judged" and not by the right "forum"
You either visit the kennels who advertise on your site, or how the HECK can you really know????????
Thank you all for responding.
Yes, I agree that adding another pet site isn't the right solution. But I also know that alot of quality breeders are being passed over because they're not showing up in google searches.
Yes, I agree that if people went to dog shows, field competitions, etc, they'd find good breeders. But the fact is that when looking for a new lab puppy, most people will search the internet. Don't you think the community would benefit if they purchased from you folks instead a byb?
Yes, I agree that if everyone found wiscoy when searching it would be wonderful. But the fact is that these other pet sites are found because the the programmers understand search engine optimization, thus getting good search rankings.
When people are looking for a pup, they'll do a google for something like "labrador puppy oregon". You will not find wiscoy in the results, at least in the first 400 that i checked.
I understand that wiscoy is highly regarded. Many breeders don't even need to advertise as their puppy are sought after. But I also believe there are other quality breeders who would benefit from getting a little more exposure to their websites. I'm am just trying to fill that gap.
The site JustLabBreeders.com is clean, simple, and if I kick it off, will hopefully contain quality breeders. I was thinking that if it consisted of breeders from wiscoy (and maybe not others), then it would give some of these other breeders a little more exposure and I wouldn't have to worry so much about filtering breeders.
I'm don't have any lofty goals or devious intentions. I saw a need after my experience, pure and simple.
Take a look at this site, and tell me what you think. I don't think I'm off my rocker, but maybe I am!
Thanks again all for responding.
Sorry, your wrong on that point. The number of times your website is clicked has absolutely no determination on your search ranking.
There area number of factors the search engines use to determine ranking. Without going into too much tech-talk, in short it has to do with:
* How well the keywords match the content on the page
* How important google believes your site is
* Importance is determined by a number of factors
- How many pages on external sites link to your page.
- How many different domains link to your page.
- The importance (pagerank) from the pages where those inbound links are coming from.
- etc.. goes on and on, but number of clicks has no relevance
Not to sound snotty, but that is why there are many good sites out there with great information that are never found.
What can it hurt? It looks fine. Puppy buyers can use all the help they can get. Good luck.
"But I also know that alot of quality breeders are being passed over because they're not showing up in google searches." How do you know this? You are merely speculating and you are actually wrong!
I would never list my kennel on your board. And none of the folks I consider my mentors and friends would either.
I don't care what your search gave you when you looked up "labrador puppy oregon" but if you put in "how to find a reputable breeder" the FIRST LINK that comes up is a HSUS link to this article:
http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/Good_breeder.pdf
which talks about what a good breeder is and where to find them.
What can it hurt? Sure. But would YOU list your kennel on it?
Well, I may not know alot about breeding, but I do know alot about search.
As someone who as spent the last 4 years looking at search logs, the usage patterns are pretty clear.
You may not believe me, but I can assure you that when somebody wants to find a puppy in say, phoenix, 99.99999% of the time they are going to enter something like "lab puppy for sale in phoenix", or "phoenix labradors",
Very few will enter "how to find a reputable breeder".
If you don't believe this, then well, you're just missing a lot of traffic.
I don't have a kennel!
I thought I was doing folks a favor, offering a place just for labs, no clutter, advertisements, etc... high quality graphics. A place to get their kennel a little more exposure. FOR FREE!!! And there are not other adds on the page either. THIS IS OUT OF MY POCKET!
And by not having open registration, would keep some of the rift-raft out, where as the other sites take anybody who will pay the 20 bucks or whatever.
Wow, breeders are a hard bunch to please!
have you noticed...people on this forum are a little toO "exclusive" to advertise on your site...oh no...they would not stoop to that...EVER.
Sorry...you just came to the wrong place to ask questions.
And what makes you think people who are on this forum are not BYB's????? There are plenty that participate here.
hello annon,
Did you visit my site? Are you referring to the page where I recommend that people who have already found a breeder should use communities like this one to ask about breeders in their area (and yes, the breeder they're considering?)
If so, do you think that is appropriate? If not, pls say so, and I'll remove that page immediately!
Thanks.
If you didn't visit, and you want some good karma coming your way, could you take a peek and give me your opinion?
The link is JustLabBreeders
Just click the "ask this question".
Thanks.
Who is to say that your site will not fall in the 400 listings that you search for?
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Replying to:
Thank you all for responding.
Yes, I agree that adding another pet site isn't the right solution. But I also know that alot of quality breeders are being passed over because they're not showing up in google searches.
Yes, I agree that if people went to dog shows, field competitions, etc, they'd find good breeders. But the fact is that when looking for a new lab puppy, most people will search the internet. Don't you think the community would benefit if they purchased from you folks instead a byb?
Yes, I agree that if everyone found wiscoy when searching it would be wonderful. But the fact is that these other pet sites are found because the the programmers understand search engine optimization, thus getting good search rankings.
When people are looking for a pup, they'll do a google for something like "labrador puppy oregon". You will not find wiscoy in the results, at least in the first 400 that i checked.
I understand that wiscoy is highly regarded. Many breeders don't even need to advertise as their puppy are sought after. But I also believe there are other quality breeders who would benefit from getting a little more exposure to their websites. I'm am just trying to fill that gap.
The site JustLabBreeders.com is clean, simple, and if I kick it off, will hopefully contain quality breeders. I was thinking that if it consisted of breeders from wiscoy (and maybe not others), then it would give some of these other breeders a little more exposure and I wouldn't have to worry so much about filtering breeders.
I'm don't have any lofty goals or devious intentions. I saw a need after my experience, pure and simple.
Take a look at this site, and tell me what you think. I don't think I'm off my rocker, but maybe I am!
Thanks again all for responding.
YEP, YOU happened on the wrong site.
Many will see your post as "pure advertisement"
Some would never lower themselves to advertising on a "pet site" where "pet buyers" are looking for a pet. Fanciers are a fierce bunch. Most "pet buyers" would not even understand their "sub-culture" of exclusiveness or frame of reference, nor would they a puppy from them...they find fanciers to be rude on the phone, and have all kinds of contracts and "small pring" . They usually end up, in the end, going to BYB because they can actually buy the kind of pup they want from a person who is NICE (what a concept, huh?)
Your time is better spent working to with individuals to help them build sites, I think.
Catherine,
all you can do is offer the service, those who want to use it will and those who think they are to good for it wont.
Wiscoy kennel links are not necessarily the cream of the crop.
don't let your feelings get hurt by this crowd, Maybe ask for suggestions to better the site, like links to educate buyers, etc.
Go to other Labrador forums and ask the same questions, take notes and move forward. good luck
Catherine, honestly you cant stop advertising, you cant stop puppy mills etc from advertising on your site. Your posting is seen as an advertisement and unfortunately one that you are trying to pull away from Jill - Wiscoys.
Maybe you should take your recommendations for people that have sites already, and show them how to "stop" advertisements/pop ups/being lower on search ratings etc.
Dont waste your time building yet another site for links. Be helpful and take whatever expertise you have and poke Breeders sites that you think need professional work done and recommend your findings to them.
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Replying to:
Catherine,
all you can do is offer the service, those who want to use it will and those who think they are to good for it wont.
Wiscoy kennel links are not necessarily the cream of the crop.
don't let your feelings get hurt by this crowd, Maybe ask for suggestions to better the site, like links to educate buyers, etc.
Go to other Labrador forums and ask the same questions, take notes and move forward. good luck
Well, I'm a web developer at Intel full time plus some. Way too busy to take on additional work.
I just thought I'd provide a service I saw lacking during my dog search.
Yes, I definately get the feeling that this is a pretty exclusive club. I suppose it's supply and demand, and the people I'm hearing from don't need anymore exposure.
I understand that, but is that the case for all breeders? It seems to me like some would benefit...
Thanks for the response.
As we told you on the other site, your site will be no better than puppyfind.com or other byb/puppymillers hangouts. Reputable breeders already know where to list their kennel and a site put up by someone who admittedly doesn't have clue isn't the place.
Well it won't if you search for "how to find a ... breeder".
The site just got started, only a few pages, and only a few kennels. But if you search for "lab breeders in oregon" which is the target group i'm steering for, it'll be there. Thinks is about 21 right now.
I'll only go up from there. There are only a few inbound links at this time.
I appreciate everyone's input. I had a similar beating at lib-breeders.net and someone recommended me to get input from this site.
They probably got a good chuckle knowing the whoop'n that was coming my way.
I was trying to do the right thing, but I obviously am barking up the wrong tree, as it sounds like everyone here has all the exposure they need.
If any of you visit the site, like it, and are not afraid of ostracized by your peers. Send me an email.
Although it's not what I wanted to hear, I appreciate your comments.
"And by not having open registration, would keep some of the rift-raft out, where as the other sites take anybody who will pay the 20 bucks or whatever."
I really don't see how limiting your advertisers to those who are already paying $20 to advertise on Wiscoy is providing any additional service. I mean... those kennels ALREADY pay for a listing, so why do they need your listing? If it is designed to be a free service for responsible breeders, shouldn't it be available to EVERYONE who meets your criteria of responsibility instead of just those who are willing to pay for a listing on Wiscoy??????
I guess I'm the one that "doesn't get it" on this topic. How does paying for a listing on Wiscoy make someone qualified to be listed on a different site???
Catherine,
It sounds like your heart was really in the right place but you yourself admitted to not knowing the breeder community all that well and truth is, there is little chance of anyone NOT knowing it very well creating a site such as you are describing and being well regarded. Only someone who is very respected in the lab community and seen as above the fray would likely get away with something like that without people thinking there was more to it than being helpful, and even then they might catch some grief here and there.
It is not personal so I hope you dont have your feelings hurt but yes, this is a tough crowd that looks for ulterior motives and trusts very little when it comes to anyone doing something for free. Many have good reason, some just have issues. Either way your work will likely be unappreciated so why not take your love for the breed and get involved in some other facet of Labradors. If you have your own and have a personal site, why not have a listing of those breeders you yourself know PERSONALLY and would recommend as opposed to trying to create some far reaching all encompassing thing that will likely become a horrible morass of pain in the neck work. Not to mention the points others have already brought up about "reputable" being in the eye of the beholder. Many may take offense to the idea of someone not in their ranks trying to label who is and who isnt worthy or reputable.
Not trying to discourage you or give you grief, just explaining as plainly as I can why your idea likely wont be workable.
To some of us who have a site, but that are admittedly not easy to find, it shows a bit of extra effort on the part of the perspective family that they did find us. Many of the really successful kennels could easily afford to buy better rankings or such but dont mind being off the beaten path or being mainly word of mouth.
So many on here dont have but a litter or so a year that too much traffic would only bring in more inquiries than they could handle. So for those that have at best 10 pups a year to place, its no big deal to have good quality inquiries trickle in over the course of a year. I have found myself that my site is more for myself and to share with fellow breeders so that I can have an easy way to share with friends about the progress of my dogs etc., who passed this or that clearance and how they are looking. That and a nice way to keep in touch with puppy families.
Thanks for the thought though and I hope you stay involved in this great breed:)
Annie
Thanks for the calm reply.
Don't be concerned about "buying ranking", those are short lived. For a while, (well, you still can) go to sites that generate fake content and add links to your site.
Google is getting really good at discrediting these links. Even with limited content on your site, there are a number of things you can do make your site more search engine friendly. Simple things like the title of your page (in the top browser bar), how you use your head tags, etc.
There a field just for this, it's call SEO, or Search Engine Optimization.
I'm busy enough, hour for the lab in the morning, work all day, hour training in the evening. Work on misc projects late hours.
You seem nice enough, if you want a few suggestions on making your site search engine friendly, I can take a peek and give you some simple pointers.
Take care.
yes, I totally follow your logic, why does everyone with a listing on Wiscoy have the "halo" of "ok!" for your site????
yes, I agree, those on this forum don't NEED advertising...most would consider in a nuisance. They are mostly by word of mouth. That is the "true" reputable breeder...proof is in the pudding.
They don't NEED advertising. They don't need to "fit into someones grid" of "what is a reputable breeder"
Like it or not, the dirty truth is, only BYB's and puppymills need advertising, because they don't have the "demand " for their pups. They don't have reservations MONTHS ahead of time for litters, they don't have word or mouth advertising.
Sorry, but its better just to get the truth "out there"
most people looking for dogs will look for one thru the National Clubs or the labrador clubs in their area or they will search AKC. Not many have done a google search, that is just my opinion, I have been breeding for 25yrs. I have not ever had someone tell me they found my kennel on a Google search!!!
Well, from what I'm hearing, people are saying the the "reputable" breeders list with wiscoy.
My thought was since I don't have expertise in this area, that wiscoy could be a filter as she is checking the creds.
It would be an easy way to let someone else with expertise weed out the worst of the crop.
Anyway, I past that point now... Where's my asprin?
Don't worry, Catherine, there is plenty of work out there, you don't need to worry about this forum. They are just a different "sort".
Maybe other forums would generate more of what you are looking for.
Frankly, Catherine, unless you visit each and every kennel, how can you TRULY know what a reputable breeder is. Until you look each breeder in the eye, how can you really know.
Many pet listing sites give the "guise" of being a "grid" for the reputable breeder, but really they are just looking for the listing.
You've learned a lot here. I know you will search your heart and know what is right for YOU to do, regardless of the feedback you got here, but I know you will find it helpful in your journey.
I think she came on to post her site, thinking some would run and sign up, then 6 months down the road, charge fees for it. Nothing but advertisement. Im sure Jill will remove your post soon.
YES if another forum sent you here, they wanted you to be torn to shreds again, go thank them.
hmmmmmmmmm...sad, but probably true...
Just to be sure, check with other forums before you post, just to be sure it is within their requirements, as far as content goes. So you are not advertising, or doing something out of the limits of their requirements. That way you won't get a "woopin" like you did here, I'd hate to see that.
Shake it off.
Press on!
Well, for your info... I did have the site open for a while back and 15 breeders posted their kennel information.
I blindly let them do it, but then I disable registration as even a newbie like myself could tell something didn't smell right.
I then had the fun experience of telling these breeders that I was removing them. How would you like that, having someone non-breeder say your kennel wasn't a good fit.
I thought maybe restricting it to allow breeders from wiscoy would keep that from happening.
I don't know how to put this, but since your blunt, i'll return the favor. I make over 100k a year as a technical lead developer at intel. You think I'm going to come in here, do all this work, all in the hope of someday charging breeders 20 bucks. Give me a break.
Your wrong on that one. Wow. This is unbelievable.
also, if i were to start up a website for advertising labs such as yours and wanted it to be above the rest, i would make sure of certain things, ONE that all clearances are done on the breeding dogs, ALL clearances, not just hips. If you look at certain sites that are on YOUR site, they may have hips listed, but not ALL clearances. Its very discouraging to someone to browse through website after website only to find the only clearances done are hips ONLY. If you havent already done so, go to optigen, OFA and see how truly important ALL these clearances are.
I personally wouldnt want to promote a breeder on my site that didnt do say.. Optigen, when they are possibly breeding two carriers or affected PRA dogs and placing puppies that will go blind later.
again, if you want to put together an awesome site, it will be hard work, looking through all the clearances from breeders, Oh and you just cant take their word for it on a website!!
Then, why are you doing it? You have a motive. We all have motives for everything we do.
Again, as i posted a bit ago, it would be to much hard work for 20 people to weed out the good ones, bad ones.
I sure wouldnt want it on my hands that i allowed someone to advertise on my site and placed puppies with known health issues or potential, such as PRCD, etc. You will NEVER have the best sites listed, as the ones you think are great breeders will sure fool ya!
Why am I not surprised at some of the rude comments here. Someone just wants to help you, and you treat them like they have an ulterior motive. Why dont you just appreciate the fact that someone wants to do a good deed for other people.
Hey anon, good deeds? its a form of advertisement, NOT allowed on here, so she should have read the rules before wasting all her finger energy AND if i were in the market to advertise, i would look HER up, not look me up. VERY VERY distasteful!
Also- the breeder's associations with breed clubs and all-breed clubs should be listed, as these are indications of how involved the person is in the breed. Links to clubs' websites might be a better idea as they usually have a contact person referring puppy pet prospects to breeders in their club.
"Like it or not, the dirty truth is, only BYB's and puppymills need advertising, because they don't have the "demand " for their pups. They don't have reservations MONTHS ahead of time for litters, they don't have word or mouth advertising."
Oh darn, I gues I'm a BYB or a puppymill then because I have on occasion listed a litter on the Wiscoy Litter Listings or the LRC Potomac Puppies page! Yes, that would be advertising.
I must be a BYB or a puppymill because I will not take a deposit to be on our waiting list for a puppy before the litter is whelped, whether the inquiry comes by word of mouth or someone just suring upon my website. Actually, I don't even announce a litter on my web site until the litter is about 2 weeks old. So you see, that means I don't have reservations for my litter months in advance of them being whelped... so by your definition, it means I'm a BYB or a puppymill!
If someone inquires, I will ask them if they'd like me to save their email address though so I can update them with any news of a litter having been born. That's a vast generalization to say that someone doesn't have a demand for their puppies because they don't have reservations ahead of time for their litters. BTW, in my case it would be "litter", not litters as I might only have one litter a year... and it might be two years till I had another litter.
This is very confusing, sometimes you post as the daughter and sometimes you post as the father. What you keep going back to is search engine optimization etc. When it's been said a few times already, those who are breeding and have sites don't care about that as their website is not designed as an advertising tool. It's an information sharing tool. Save your efforts for another project.
This person received alot of constructive criticism on another board and chose to ignore it....most of it being create a site to teach buyers where to look for clubs, shows, what clearances mean and why it's important. Make it a one stop shop for what to expect from a breeder and the steps you need to take to find that breeder using well-established sites and links already created.
Val, stop being hypersensitive. You KNOW the difference between what folks call a BYB and what it means by doing it right...which you do!! Many of us don't take deposits, have all pups sold before the litter is born, but you (as did I) used the reputable methods to generate interest. Club affiliations, their litter listings, call the designated referral person for your club.
There are people who would not want their kennels listed on Wiscoy. There are reputable breeders who would consider any association with it embarrassing.
Sorry for kicking the bees nest.
First, someone ask why sometimes catherine, sometimes dad...
It's a tag team, my daughter who just graduated from college designed and will support the site. Dad is the poor smuck who got suckered into progamming it for her (thats me), as I do it for a living.
Some have implied there's some devious motive, sorry folks, there isn't.
Why do you breed and show dogs? I assume you're good at it, like doing it, and am proud of your work. Why do you see it so differently for someone with a different profession? Pls don't answer...
Some have implied we were told to buzz off from another site. You're welcome to look at it, it's lab-retriever.net. Yes, got a lot of the same input, then one nice person suggested we pass it by here, as he said there were only about 10 active breeders at that forum.
So we did, got some good feedback, got some nasty feedback (I'm sure the tone would be different if we walked into your office face-2-face and asked for advice, but this is a faceless web and part of the deal)
So what have we decided? I talked it over with catherine, and yes, we are going to keep the site up. As we are not experts, we're going to use some of our breeder friends to look over potential additions, and we're going to see how it goes.
I don't expect to see you in my inbasket wanting to sign up, and frankly, we prefer that our free labor goes to people who will actually appreciate it. If thats you, then you're more than welcome.
With that said, we did appreciate the inputs, good and bad, and we learned a few things. I hope you all have continued success in your breeding programs.
"Val, stop being hypersensitive. You KNOW the difference between what folks call a BYB and what it means by doing it right..."
My reply was not addressing the definition of a backyard breeder. It was in reply to one statement made that perpetuates a falsehood. Read my previous quote and the snippet I copied and pasted to which I was replying.
... trying to make a point... such vast generalizations don't hold water.
Just trying to dispell the generalization that someone must be a BYB or puppymiller because all puppies are not spoken for by the time they are whelped.
Why would I be hypersensitive?? LOL I've never been called a BYB or puppymiller that I know of... well, at least not to my face!
... oh, yes, almost forgot... part of what I was replying to (and quoted in my reply)
was that only the BYB and puppymillers need advertising.
If someone wanted to knit pick, they'd say posting on a club's Litters page was advertising.
Fortunately, there's more important things to worry about in life, and I don't give worry about such things (i.e., someone things I'm advertising, or something is wrong with my litter becaue they're not all reserved before whelped, etc.)
LOL Val, im sure you have been, not to your face is right. We all have been called that over something by little jealous friends of ours lol, or the ones you think are friends.
"LOL Val, im sure you have been, not to your face is right. We all have been called that over something by little jealous friends of ours lol, or the ones you think are friends."
Hahha, may have been and just don't know it... because I'd certainly fall into the definition if it includes having ever advertised in any form or by not placing puppies by word of mouth only, or not having them all reserved before they're whelped!
