According to OFA, the number of dogs being tested for EIC is increasing rapidly. My guess is that most people are just doing it quietly and starting to share their "clears" publically.

How long do you think it will be until breeders are brave enough to share their carriers?

In speaking with several breeders (show dogs) who have done the test on all of their breeding stock, most are finding a mix of clears and carriers. I have not spoken to one breeder who has had all clears.

Would you use a "carrier" dog if they are well suited to your bitch? Do you think that carriers are just going to be passed over for clears?

I have spent several thousand dollars on testing this past 18 months or so. I still have a few dogs I haven't tested for EIC, and i haven't done any CMN testing yet. I will spend my money on more tests, not paying to have the information on OFA. My results are posted on my website. And yes, I have a mixture of clears and carriers.

I personally would use a carrier on a clear bitch, if he were the right dog. I would then test the puppies and use clear/carrier status as one criterion for deciding what to keep. If I have two pups of approximately equal merit, I would keep a clear. Hopefully, as people do that, the proportion of EIC carriers will decline without losing overall quality.

Carrier males probably will get less action because so many girls are carriers. That's unfortunate for those dogs and their owners, perhaps, but good for the puppy buyers who are spared having to give up field training and/or hunting with their affected dog.

Perhaps the question should not say brave, but should say confident.

I am just wondering what kind of impact this will have on our breed when a whole bunch of dogs are dismissed based on a test that indentifies "the gene ASSOCIATED with EIC"???

Lots of people making their dogs' results public:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29598

Not just field bred dogs--there are some conformation dogs listed here too.

MK

Does anyone see the irony in the OP asking this questions without signing their name?

I was lucky enough to have the 4 I tested so far come back clear .... boys and girls ... Frankly my plan is to deal with it the same way I do Optigen. If I have a clear bitch then I will go to any dog I like ... whether they are carriers or untested .... That way I can look at all the other factors that go into deciding who I breed to .... If I happen to get a carrier bitch then that will limit my choice who I go to .... I beleive in testing my bitches so I have as broad a selection of boys as possible ... Since I breed mostly chocolates .. I am already dealing with a smaller subset of boys.

Breeder you hit the nail on the head, "dogs are dismissed based on a test that indentifies "the gene ASSOCIATED with EIC"???"

I know a lot of breeders will not use this test until the actual gene is identified that actually causes EIC. Right now now the test IMO is a mish-mash of information and the old story goes dont' throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Exactly well....

Until they find the OTHER genes that also have to be present to actually CAUSE collapse, the test is useless as far as I am concerned.

If people don't want to use my boys because they aren't tested, don't.
If you don't want to buy a puppy because the parents aren't tested, don't.

The EIC test is NOT a marker test.

I believe that they have identified the (a?) gene associated with EIC. I believe the problem is not with this specific test. I believe it tests what it says it tests for.

If a dog is tested clear, it is clear. Period. it will never produce EIC. Wouldn't that be good to know?

Here is my opinion about EIC.

The problems come up when you get a carrier or an affected, in my opinion. I am not sure that an affected by this gene test will necessarily produce dogs that collapse with EIC if bred to a carrier or another affected. It might and it might not. Either because EIC, as we define it clinically is a mixed disease, some of which is genetic and some of which is not even EIC, or because it is a multi-gene disease and we have only a test for one gene of a group, or penetrance is very variable or low or there is another gene which if present prevents the expression of the gene or what.

But to not test and say it is because the test is not reliable, is to stick your head in the sand and to say it is because it really doesn't get the gene associated with EIC is spurious.

And information is what prevents you from throwing the baby out with the bath water, not gulping sand.

Bonnie

Finding the other genes is certainly important if you want to produce collapsing dogs. The current test does not accurately tell us which dogs will collapse. But that's not what I want to do. I want to be sure I DON'T produce dogs that collapse, and the current test does allow us to do that. No one should be eliminating dogs from the breeding pool because of these genetic tests. They allow us to use carriers and even affecteds wisely if their other qualities are what we want to perpetrate in our dogs.

It has nothing to do with being "brave". I will not use the test until the actual gene is identified. Why throw all your hard earned money to a company who hasn't even identified the gene, when the test will need to be repeated (at the owners expense) when and if they ever do identify the actual EIC gene.

There are many genes that are associated with various diseases, but those genes don't actually CAUSE the disease itself. Something to think about before people continue to place dogs that most likely don't even carry the actual EIC gene. Many people don't seem to understand this fact and instead test because others are telling them to. I simply will not line the pockets of a company that has not yet identified the ACTUAL gene. Again, there are many genes that are associated with various diseases, but those genes don't actually CAUSE the disease itself.

Bonnie is correct - this is not a marker test. The Minnesota team has identified and are testing for a specific mutation in the dynamin 1 gene that causes a dog to be susceptible to collapse if other poorly understood conditions, some of which may be genetic and others environmental, are present. A dog must inherit that mutation from both parents in order to collapse from EIC. Essentially dogs with one or two normal alleles (carriers and clears) at the dynamin 1 locus have a 99% lower probability of collapsing in a manner that looks like EIC.

You talk about not understanding the facts of this test. I am a genetics researcher with a Ph.D. in cell biology and almost 25 years of teaching experience in genetics and molecular biology. I have read the paper published in Nature Genetics and have gone online to look at the appendices. Maybe you are a researcher in the field of canine genetics and have read information that i haven't, which is possible, as I work on sea urchins, not mammals. But unless that is the case, don't say that I don't understand the facts. While the Minnesota team has not yet produced in the laboratory an organism with a similar mutation that undergoes EIC-like collapse, I understand that they are working on that. Meanwhile, they have provided excellent linkage data that pinpoints the dynamin 1 gene as the source of EIC and that shows that the actual MUTATION they are using for their test tracks through their extensive pedigrees with the collapsing phenotype with a very high degree of significance, many orders of magnitude greater than the .001 value usually required to "prove" linkage. The dynamin 1 gene functions in neurotransmission, and a previously identified mutation in the equivalent gene in fruit flies causes paralysis. A mutation in such a gene is a very logical source for a condition like EIC, and the linkage data for this actual mutation is way beyond significant. So a dog identified as E/E may not ever collapse, but it DOES have the major gene mutation responsible for EIC and it WILL pass it on.

And I don't advocate that people place dogs the carry the mutation, only that they breed them to dogs that have tested clear. I just had a litter from such a breeding myself. Three of the four puppies went to working homes (hunting and search and rescue) and I am confident that those pups will never have to curtail their activities because of EIC. That's worth $65 to me.

Who cares? I know. Some do, but just as many do not. The test will be embraced when and if they discover the whole secret. As long as experience does not match test results, I for one do not much care what the test result says.

I just have to shake my head in wonder when some so called "experts" come on and puff about having a "clear" in some relatively minor issue which does not amount to a hill of beans and then turn around and breed a serious issue such a s TVD....get your head out of the "sand", folks and get serious about the serious issues such as TVD, epilepsy, chronic crippling orthopedic problems, etc.

Nothing's ever a serious issue until it shows up in YOUR dog, or you produce it in one of YOUR puppies......

Why not be proactive and test for whatever you can, and mabe you won't ever produce one of these relatively minor issues; then you can continue to concentrate on your serious issues.

So... I have to assume that you have already tested all your dogs for those health problems for which we DO currently have DNA tests, right? When they have a gene test for some of those other problems you mentioned (and I know they are working on it), then we can test for those as well. I don't see how NOT using the DNA tests currently available (like EIC) will in any way reduce the amount of TVD - do you

The best we can do at the moment for those problems you listed is checking phenotype (hips, elbows, eyes, hearts, etc.) while ALSO using the available DNA tests for screening of those "minor" issues like PRA, CNM, EIC, RD, etc.

If this is directed at me, I sure wish you would email me and let me know what you know that I don't, because as far as I know, I haven't been producing these problems, either. I did have an issue with elbows about 20 years ago, but not recently. I would certainly want to know if I were producing any of those problems! And if and when reliable tests become available for those diseases, you can bet I'll use them. TVD is going to be a big one, as apparently it is a dominant trait, and the decisions to be made will be much more difficult, since carriers could not be safely bred if that were the case. Epilepsy and orthopedic problems- I guess I'll be pleasantly surprised if there is a single gene that accounts for 99% of the cases in either of these conditions. Again, the decision to use such tests may not be clear cut.

Yeah! that's the first thing I thought about the OP..like, what is your name? and are you about to list all of your dogs, publicly that are carriers??? LOL! Very suspicious indeed.

uh, oh, someone has not taken their meds today...

Ditto here! Am not testing my dogs with a faulty test... for the idiot that asked about people having the guts to tell about their carriers what a stupid question to ask when the test means NOTHING if it's not accurate... as I see Maureen is back from her trip and posting so I think she's the anon for this one OP trying to stir up trouble.
Aloha,
Jackie

breeder

Exactly well....

Until they find the OTHER genes that also have to be present to actually CAUSE collapse, the test is useless as far as I am concerned.

If people don't want to use my boys because they aren't tested, don't.
If you don't want to buy a puppy because the parents aren't tested, don't.

There is nothing faulty about the test - as others have said, it is accurate for what it tests for. There is no question that clears are truly clear, so as long as there is one clear dog in every breeding, no one will ever need to worry about producing an EIC affected dog.

People are always going to ignore tests when breeding - people already ignore OFA results, and more and more people are breeding to puppy dogs with at best prelim clearances. I know of a "reputable" breeder who recently bred an Optigen Carrier to an Optigen untested dog who was also barely a year old. We cannot control what everyone else does; only what we do ourselves, and I choose to test and breed with all of the available information I can so I feel comfortable with my decision.

I have an EIC carrier and another dog who is a PRA carrier. These results are in OFA and on my website. There is no stigma in having carriers (any carrier can be safely bred and contribute to the gene pool), so I do not see why making this public would be considered "brave". Whether others choose to breed to them is irrelevant; I keep them because they are what I want.

I would venture the people that own dogs that collapse care.

I am not disputing the research or all of the fancy terms above. I'm sure they really have identified part of the puzzle.
My concern is that if they can only identify one "gene associated with EIC" then how can they say what the true mode of inheritance is?????
Maybe you only need one parent with all the "right" genes (the identified gene plus the others not yet known) to produce a collapsing dog???
Maybe you need two parents with the right combination. Who really knows since the test isn't complete. They don't have the combination isolated.
Maybe you really CAN breed two supposed "carriers" of this one identified gene "associated with collapsing dogs" and STILL never produce and actual collopasing dog without the OTHER genes they have NOT identified????
Lots to think about....

Breeder - this is the problem with this test. It is not valuable at all

Why are there people who feel public (ANONOMOUS) bullying will do any good?

The test is flawed. PERIOD. I suggest to the puffed up chests out there to take a moment and reconsider the lunacy of rushing to test, even spending thousands of dollars to test. This is wasteful, short-sighted and not a good way to run forward.

That's where you would be WRONG. At least in my case.
I had a collapsing dog.
I have relatives to this dog still here in my breeding program.
I retired the collapsing dog, but not his non-collapsing relatives.
Haven't had a single one other than him collapse yet, and I own his father Yep, that's right, the father, who has produced many offspring, none of which to my knowledge has EIC. Neither does what's behind him or the dam of the collapsing dog.
I have not done the test, on any of them.
Have no plans to at this point.

Instead of signing your posts "breeder", would you mind using "Typhoid Mary" as your alias???

I believe someone already used that for the Potomac flu thread! LOL!! Well, I WAS at Potomac!!
But seriously, if EIC was anything like the typhoid, you would see dogs dropping everywhere.
I don't see that. Not in my kennel, not at the various dog events I attend. Not hearing about it from pet people either.
Nowhere.
Just because there is a new test out there, doesn't mean the illness is new. If most breeders have never even seen a dog collapse, I doubt there is any typhoid-like EIC epidemic happening.
How about a marker gene for TVD, epilepsy, HD, ED? Those are the things we see a lot of, not EIC.
In fact, before the research started, barely anyone had even heard of EIC!! Now because it's the topic of conversation it's suddenly so prevalent???
I don't think so....

Ahh, the list was so nice and civilized for the past few weeks or so. Now that our favorite trouble-maker is back the fighting begins again. Quite amazing...

Answer one simple question .

Why can't the univ of minn get a dog to collapse who tests positive for their eic test?

if it is so powerful and accurate - they cannot do it.

sorry - bad test

wasted money

garbage in garbage out

maureen shares a lot of good information

people don't like the information

ergo they attack her for posting it

those are the real bullies--anonymous to boot

Where in the world did you get THIS bit of misinformation????? The U of MN has had many dogs in their research group collapse during stress testing. Who is telling you otherwise????? Please, folks. READ the actual information. If 20 dogs were stress tested and 19 collapsed, I'd say that is pretty strong proof of the validity. If ONE specific dog did not collapse on ONE specific day of testing, how does that invalidate the rest of the results? Seriously, get your thinking caps on and really READ the facts.

If you don't want to do too much research and hard thinking on the science, then just accept the test without question because it is the SAFE and PROACTIVE thing to do for the future of the breed. Why would you want to defend a negative position that is potentially harmful to the unborn Labs of the future? Think about that - think hard about it.

While I do understand both sides of this coin, what I don't understand is why people so vehemently argue the whole clearance issue. You have to breed for yourself and for what your conscience can live with. Most of us, I would think keep a puppy or two out of each litter, one or two may go to a "working" home, but most go to pet homes. IMO, I do all the clearance I have available to me, because I don't want to breed that perfect dog only to have it develop a significant problem that I could have potential avoided. I think that's why people are reluctant to test and get so defensive on the topic. If you don't want to test for whatever reason, then you need to live with the consequences and hopefully they won't bite you. For those that believe in testing, they won't use a dog that's untested, and that should be fine with everyone all the way around. Basically to each his own. But IMO, there are no guarantees in life and there's no reason to tempt fate.

And, to Maureen, your comment about the dog that doesn't handle the hot weather, you imply it's because of EIC, I have an EIC-normal, multiple generations echo-normal, ofa excellent, elbow normal male who HATES the warm weather! He loves being a couch potato, and while he'll never be a working dog, he's a wonderful companion, who is a multiple champion with obedience titles.

Maureen, The Crazies Really Missed You!!!!
They have nothing better to do than to Instigate trouble! I had emailed to see if you were around not long ago and some crazy person posted ....
Welcome Back!

As the OP of this topic, I need to say that it was not Maureen in hiding trying to stir up trouble. I am a nobody in the breeder world who is trying to make breeding decisions and understand the complex issue better. I was curious to know where people were at in terms of their attitudes towards "carriers." Obviously, clear is clear...but there are many fabulous and influential dogs out there who are going to come up carriers and it's going to be interesting to see if breeders really do use carriers on their clear girls.

Thanks to all who shared their opinion on this issue.

Maureen, how many dogs have you bred that collapse?

People who are annoyed or angry about this thread have nobody to blame but themselves. Is there anyone on the list who is not aware of what Maureen thinks? Is there anyone who does not know what objections of those who prefer not to test are?

I can only guess some people are only happy when they are annoyed. Doesn't make sense, does it?


Get yourself a good mystery or romance novel.

You don't deserve an answer. This board has become rediculious, such a shame that there are so many opinionated novices that it's no longer worth weeding through the junk replies to find any valid information.

I appreciate your reply and honesty.
I think that your reply also gives those who are not believers in the test or the severity of the problem a leg to stand on.
You can speculate as to whether if pushed, a dog *might* have collapsed all you want but the fact is you admit that you have never had or known of any of your dogs who have actually collapsed.
So this tells me that EIC is not really as wide spread of an issue as test advocates would like us to think it is.
I come to this conclusion because until very recently, there was no test, and yet, there were very few collapsing dogs. Even though everyone in the world was breeding untested dogs (no test available).
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill and stand by my opinion about the test not being the whole puzzle, just a piece of it.
If it was the whole puzzle, there would be a heck of a lot more dogs falling down out there!

First -- most labs with beautiful double coats do not like the heat. You try wearing a fur coat in July and run a hunt test.

I believe people will start posting carrier/affected results when the test results are used properly.

A witch hunt is not what is in order here. This a tool, just like a hammer. Would you use a hammer to install a screw?

When used responsibly -- this test can provide guidance and whom to breed to. That way -- when a test is developed for all the gene markers, you'll already be ahead of the game.

Welcome back Maureen!

I see the vacation did you some good!

Thanks. I visited 5 countries over 8 days and talked with breeders from 3 additional while there. Nearly every group brought up the EIC issue. They have had or bred dogs that collapsed. They have had dogs that tested affected. They know of friends or others that have experienced this problem. There is a short article about a dog in Finland that died with EIC. They are concerned - and rightly so. Since we have had about a year or so head start on this information, many in other countries are watching to see how we react.

I spoke to breeders in several countries that have the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Some will only believe EIC exists when THEIR dog collapses. Many more are either doing some testing or investigating. One breeder in Finland has already tested ALL of her dogs. She found both carriers and affecteds in her breeding program - but a lot of clears as well to keep her line on track. EVERY dog in her kennel can be used (yes, the affecteds as well) because ALL are tested.

Several talked to me about organizing swab clinics for DNA testing and there is a NEW licensed testing organization in Finland that reports results directly to the breed online database. They may not have started dealing with EIC as early as we did, but they are being very proactive and sharing information - as they have with all their other health screenings. Testing and sharing are the best protection for the individual breeder and the breed in general.

I couldn't have stated it better myself. You are so very right. It is amazing how many dogs that I have in my lines and close up I might add, that are said to be affecteds and carriers, yet I have yet to see a single case of it over these many long years. It is not as big of an issue as some are making it out to be. Rather than so much energy put into a rarely seen thing as EIC, I myself would like to see a marker test for the major issue's we have in our breed like HD, ED and TVD.



I believe someone already used that for the Potomac flu thread! LOL!! Well, I WAS at Potomac!!
But seriously, if EIC was anything like the typhoid, you would see dogs dropping everywhere.
I don't see that. Not in my kennel, not at the various dog events I attend. Not hearing about it from pet people either.
Nowhere.
Just because there is a new test out there, doesn't mean the illness is new. If most breeders have never even seen a dog collapse, I doubt there is any typhoid-like EIC epidemic happening.
How about a marker gene for TVD, epilepsy, HD, ED? Those are the things we see a lot of, not EIC.
In fact, before the research started, barely anyone had even heard of EIC!! Now because it's the topic of conversation it's suddenly so prevalent???
I don't think so....

Maybe when the test is actually patented that breeders will come around. Is that what happened with Optigen?

If you really want splice hairs, the CNM mutation SEGREGATES with CNM:

SINE exonic insertion in the PTPLA gene leads to multiple splicing defects and segregates with the autosomal recessive centronuclear myopathy in dogs.

Pelé M, Tiret L, Kessler JL, Blot S, Panthier JJ.

Hum Mol Genet. 2005 Jun 1;14(11):1417-27. Epub 2005 Apr 13. Erratum in: Hum Mol Genet. 2005 Jul 1;14(13):1905-6.

It's just scientific vernacular. You're never going to see any scientific paper that says 100% guarantee that this is it and will never be proven wrong.

Optigen acknowledges the exact same things that EIC does in their glossary if you've ever looked through it.

Expressivity - Some diseases are very predictable in terms of age of onset and severity of symptoms. Such a disease is typically “expressed” in the same way in each affected individual. But some conditions, for example Toller PRA, don’t fit this description. They might have very different ages of onset, different degrees of severity, and/or different rates of progression even within the same line, the same pedigree, or even the same litter. One confusing result of reduced or variable expressivity is that a dog can be affected according to a DNA test, yet show no clinical signs of disease until much later, or show only mild and slowly progressing clinical signs of the disease. This dog must not be confused with a case of false positive.


Penetrance - The extreme case of reduced expressivity is incomplete penetrance. An inherited disease has incomplete penetrance in cases where the individual is known to have the affected genotype, but never shows the clinical disease. Even so, the clinical disease shows up again in its offspring. Clearly, the affected genes were present in the parent but the disease didn’t “penetrate” to a recognizable state. Again, this case must not be confused with a case of false positive. Incomplete penetrance has been documented in some PRA-affected Toller pedigrees.

a timid, somewhat embarrased, not used to all these kind comments...humble thanks, but i´m just a labrador lower.

i did write earlier on wiscoy about the finnish club acting about the issue, i did translate part of the finnish breeding information from our annual club magazine....only i don´t have the translation saved, and not much knowledge about the issue either, not a specialist and personally no experience about it.

all i know, finnish labrador club follows up, all about EIC closely and acts calmly, now a list of tested labradors on club webpage together with all other test results, and finnish kennel club database has all info of all registered breeds and dogs in finland, not yet optigen and eic etc...as finnish kennel club needs it own screening to all issues added to data base.

http://www.kennelliitto.fi
our one and only kennel club

http://www.labradori.fi
our labrador club

best
ritva