Is there a good informative genetic based site that explains why this wouldn't happen.Litter of puppies for sale both yellow and black out of 2 yellow parents. The breeders ( first litter) insist that this is "normal" and have been told by 2 long time breeders that they are correct. To me two yellows cannot produce black puppies as they can't "carry Black" If they "carry" black they would be black.

It has to be a mismating... I would contact AKC and they'll make them do a DNA on all the pups. It's beyond me how they can even register any blacks from that litter!
Aloha,
jackie

When I questioned them this was their response via e-mail........


Yes it is possible to have black from yellow and yellow. It is apparently very rare but can happen if both parents have black in their genes.

The Labrador breeder that I got my dog from, who is very experienced, has never had that happen herself but she had heard of it happening before elsewhere.

She was at a dog show yesterday and spoke to an even more experienced Labrador breeder (28 years) about the fact that my dog had 2 black puppies and she stated that it was possible but it was very rare

Yes, it is rare. Very rare. Extremely rare. Almost impossibly rare. So rare that I would not trust the parentage on that litter without DNA. And, whoever her experienced breeder is should be telling her to get out the cheek swabs! Bad advice if it is any different than than.

Agree./...

IMPOSSIBLY rare. IMPROBABLY RARE TOO.


it is so rare - that if it comes back as being the real thing, invest in Lehman Brothers Stock.

Better do DNA. A black boy was in there somewhere. Not possible. Would check this out soon.

In the world of genetics, nothing is impossible. Some combination could just occur and viola!

If it was a mix up, ok, but I certainly wouldn't just attack someone's honor.

I think that it is great we have the tool of DNA testing, now, to settle it by furthur science. I would be so facinated by the results and implications if DNA proves both yellow parents............magic is humbling, because really that is what reproduction is, sort of magic.

I have long ago discussed this exact colour issue with UK and US reputable long timers with impeccable ethics and tons of experience and they had all seen this strange phenomenon of 2 yellows throwing a black now and again as well as chocolates throwing black. All kinds of strange coat colour issues are still being ironed out. Even with the available tool of a gene colour test, it is not 100% guaranteed.

I have personally seen 2 chocolates producing black puppies, it was pretty much a mindbender! They did do DNA and both parents were chocolate, not carrying yellow, and the black and chocolate offspring were verified. I am still amazed on that one.

IMPOSSSSSIBLE!!!!!!!

I beg to differ. About 16 years ago, (She lays at my feet) I had a 'mismark'. A black puppy produced from two yellow parents, she is all black but a small yellow spot on her left flank. About 4 years ago, I did a DNA test on her, being I was still lucky enough to have both the sire and dam. DNA says parentage is correct, I had never questioned it, because I had only one male and one female, but it was nice to have a little reassurance. She was the odd man out in a litter of 11 yellow puppies.

I kept her, as she was very nice, very nice pedigree, and heck, she was original. She got her JH and had a few points to her name (shown in Bred By or Open Black).

As a note of interest, she was bred to a yellow. Had 9 yellow puppies.

I would highly doubt two puppies in one litter though. But it is possible to have a seemingly black puppy in a litter, though not probable. I repeated the breeding of my girl's sire and dam and not one puppy had the slightest mismark.

Why would you breed a mismark?
Do breeders breed their mismarks?
Help me out here?
Also, can 2 chocolates produce black puppies if they are chocolate carrying black? (Just making sure)

Whatever,
Did you DNA test your girl to find out if she would produce mismark puppies before breeding? Just curious.. I believe that would be the K locus test?....

Labs with white on the chest is acceptable....

I have not hear from a lot of the breeders only whatever ... Would you breed a mismark? If you did, you would have her DNA tested for K locus to find out if the dog would produce a miskmark?

Just curious as to what the masses would do...

Good question regarding Choc-Choc
going to call VetGen to find out a little more for my education..
Thanks

Provided everything else was great I wouldn't have a problem breeding a mismark. And, I do find this extremely interesting that a black could come from two yellows and that the black puppy is technically a mismark? That is pretty cool if you ask me. I don't know that I would try and repeat that...but it is cool that it can happen.

Unfortunately, you cannot show a mismark....
Correct

Years ago I had a yellow girl with a darker yellow splash mark on her inner thigh. I did show her and she was eventually a BISS CH. Her splash mark was hardly noticeable. She had three large litters and never produced a mis-mark to my knowledge.

This is totally amazing. Just when you think something is incontrovertible! My question would be-can a dominant black rarely produce yellow?

JMO - I'd guess that anything IS possible while at the same time may be quite unlikely!

I called Vetgen and they said 2 yellows producing a black - NO
2 chocolates producing a black - No
You can go to their website and send your color questions in....

While Vetgen may "know" the answers, Mother Nature RULES!

The DNA for parentage won't help if for some reason one of the parents is not as pure bred as they think. If a yellow to yellow mating produces a black pup, which actually is genetically impossiable, just as it is for silvers to be produced naturally within the breed. Both parents may very well be correct however the parents parents may not be all that they seem, and I would hazard a guess that in all cases of Black from yellow/ yellow or chocolate/chocolate this is a very strong possibility. Do Vetgen have anything on their site or do I have to ask that question.

You have to go to their website and ask the question

When the Blue Knight site is up again, check out this link:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

You'll see a very clear pictorial on what color dogs (with what colors they carry) if bred to a dog what they would or could produce.

Just saw where a choc dam & black sire produced 9 puppies - 4 choc, 2 yellow & 3 black

Both the sire and dam carried yellow in this case...

don't know, just saw it on an ad and thought it was interesting .... I didn't know that could happen.... Obviously, i'm very new with colors and this.... not stirring anything up just thought it was interesting...

ok, after a *very* long week at work and not being sure my mind is still functioning I would suppose that there could be a mutation at the exact location of the loci that affect color in any particular puppy (hard to imagine it could happen to 2 puppies in the same litter)...

Due to the extemely odd presentation of the puppies colors I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest DNA.

Ok so here is another question on coat colour genetic's. If you mate a yellow who doesn't carry chocolate to a chocolate who doesn't carry yellow, all the pups will be black, correct? Yet both of these colours are recessive and in "theoy" shouldn't be able to produce black when mated together.

yes that is correct, but how does that work, I know they can't produce anything but black, just not sure how the genetic's work in a mating like that.

This is a layman's explanation of these genetics:

The puppies are all black because the yellow that doesn't carry chocolate is eeBB (only black on the black/chocolate gene-pair) and the chocolate that doesn't carry yellow is EEbb (only black on the black/yellow gene-pair).

Big E is black on the black/yellow pair, little e is yellow on the black/yellow pair. Big B is black on the black/chocolate pair, little b is chocolate on the black/chocolate pair.

So, the yellow can only contribute a little e and big B, and the chocolate can only contribute a big E and a little b. The puppies will all be EeBb - which is black, with chocolate and yellow recessive.

Hope that makes sense

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071030133907.htm

You can learn something everyday, this is huge.