I received my InGen results last week and my By girl is also heterozygous at the agouti R96C locus. I've googled it and found some references, and wonder if maybe this is how the two yellows produce a black too (if the two yellows were heterozygous for the R96C locus)

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/esm036v1

If a black dog that is 'recessive black' (or homozygous at R96C) is bred to a dog not carrying this gene, no offspring would be 'recessive black' and that concurs with what the previous poster wrote (that the mismark black was bred to a yellow and had only yellows).

Is this gene more prevalent in our breed than we know?

It would be interesting to see if any of these blacks out of chocolate or yellow parents could be tested with one of the coat color companies to see if the dogs are homozygous for this locus.

It is my understanding that Black cannot be recessive, as it is the dominant colour, that is why it is impossiable for two yellows to produce a black, two recessives can not produce a dominant colour. If a dog "carries" a dominant colour it will in fact be that colour. Yellows or chocolates don't carry black, but both colours can carry those two colours as they are recessive.

Jan,

Please read the link regarding 'recessive black' and the R96C mutation. It is very rare, but this is perhaps the explanation (other than 'mother nature') for the blacks out of yellow or chocolates that otherwise should not be able to produce black.

I was a bit surprised to see the mutation on my girl's results as well!

Cheers!

I have a girl too that is yellow and carries what is said to be recessive black Agouti R96c

anon123,

If I'm reading correctly, then if your girl is bred to another yellow carrying the R96C recessive black gene, then 1/4 of the pups could actually be black!

Is there a geneticist here that knows better/otherwise?

cheers

I have decided to directly contact

sheila.schmutz@usask.ca

regarding her article
Thanks for your information

Well...all ideas are just that ... she would not answer my question.... however, I did email DDC and they were very informative ....
Never say never with these kinds of things!

I was very interested in learning more about Agouti R96C, color coat so I emailed Randy at DDC

He has emailed me a reply and I would like to share with the group if that's okay with Jill...
Please advise

If not, you are welcome to email privately and I will forward to you... he was very nice to reply to my email

DDC did the EIC & CNM on my girls and Randy was very helpful at the time.....

Thanks

Viola

I'd love to know and will be patient to see if Jill is okay with this too. If not, I'll e-mail you privately Viola! Tks.

sure.. go ahead and post it. interesting thread

-J

Thanks Jill
I had doubts, was confused and am very uneducated on the topic.........

Thanks for your email.

Yes, this must be a hot topic and subject of much debate... I received a phone call from another experienced breeder this morning and had a long conversation on the subject of coat color.

Yes, this is possible to have a recessive black gene though it's uncommon. Coat color inheritance is probably the most misunderstood area of genetics we deal with. I have always told breeders... Never say "always" and never say "never". There are plenty of exceptions to the rules and I see them pop up occasionally. For example, there are many labradors that are carrying a gene that codes for a long coat. Have you ever seen a purebred AKC registered long haired lab? Its pretty fascinating I think.

Sorry, I digress...

There are 2 things going on with "recessive black"...

1) The K locus. Normally labs will have 2 dominant copies of the K-locus which is what allows the solid colors of Black, Yellow, and Chocolate to be expressed, however, it is possible there are the recessive forms of the locus floating around. The K locus in it's homozygous recessive form will allow the 2) A-locus or AGOUTI color patterns to be expressed. The Agouti color patterns include tan points in one recessive form of the allele and... potentially... Recessive Black in another recessive form of the allele.

Isn't that confusing? I know it can be, but this could be one possible explanation for example as to how a black pup could be produced by 2 yellow parents (long thought to be an impossibility, right?)

Yes, we have DNA tests for the K locus and A locus if breeders are interested in these tests.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Randy

Randall Smith
DDC Veterinary
One DDC Way
Fairfield, Ohio 45014
1-800-625-0874
www.vetdnacenter.com

Tks Viola - this is really interesting!!!

It would be very valuable for the person with the black puppy out of the "yellows" to send in the DNA on the dogs and see if this is the case. We would all be interested. Always open to learn.

20 years ago I bred two chocolates,not the best lines but iI was uneducated back then.
the pair had 3 litters together, the last litter had 5 of the 9 with splash marks up all 4 legs and under the belly.
It almost looked like they ran through bleach, it was not really brindle marks and was almost a yellow hair.
Wish I had taken pictures of it now so I could find out what genes caused the splash.