this is not lab related, but im looking for input.
my sussex bitch had 6 pups via csection a week ago monday. everything was going as well as expected with a first time mom and section. yesterday i had to leave the bitch and go get my eye glasses fixed. i crated her next to the whelping box and left the pups in the box. my other dogs were crated in a different part of the house.
when i returned and let her out she would not stop groweling.she groweled at me, at the pups. i held her head while she nursed, fed her dog bisquits etc. then took her temp which was normal.
after three almost 4 hours of this non stop i let go of her for a flash, she wheeled around and killed a pup
she is now off the pups forever and will be spayed. a dear friend of mine has loaned me a lab bitch that was just weaning her own pups.Today of course she couldnt be sweeter to me she misses her pups and howels alot but i will not relent. she is finished
Does anyone out there have any light to share on this
why this happend? what could i have done differently? why 8 days post section? and not right after the section?. If you are not comfortable talking about this in a puplic forum feel free to email me privately or give me a call 650-365-1001
now the struggle is to keep the remaining 5 alive.
Jan

Jan, I'm very sorry to hear about this and can't offer any advice, etc. on why it happened but pls know we're sending good thoughts for the pups who I bet will do just fine with their foster mom! I

SHE NEEDS CALCIUM ! Right now.

Hi Jan,

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of the pup and to hear that your girl is having some difficulties. But as breeder mentioned, she more than likely needs more calcium.

Low levels can cause them to behave this way so I would suggest adding some cottage cheese to her diet for awhile and see if that helps.

Best of luck!

Dianne Mullikin, EMT-B
Los Angeles, CA

I'm very sorry for your situation Jan however, this sounds like a typical low calcium reaction. Especially if it is sudden and not in your bitches nature normally.
I would have a vet appt to check this and then make your decisions from there.

thankyou yes i gave her a cup of vanilla icecream the real stuff.i couldnt get her to eat cottage cheese. after the icecream things sort of exaserbated to awful. i called the vets no one had any good solutions if i ever and i say ever breed another dog again and something like this happens i will be shoving the whole jar of tums down the bitches throat. On another list that i read someone suggested that by putting the bitch in a crate maybe started the whole thing .But you know i dont think so because the puppies were in the same place i left them
i am however totaly grateful for all of your replys

I'll second Dianne's assessment in terms of a possible calcium deficiency. We have had a similar problem in years past as were at a complete loss as far as what was going on. Another breeder suggested that a Calcium deficiency could be the source of the issue. While we were lucky and all she did was growl and snap at her puppies, none were hurt. By the time we figured out what was going on she started trembling on occasion, a classic symptom of Ecampsia. We took her into the vet who gave her a Calcium shot plus for the next several days we fed her Pet-Cals. Since this time we have had another that at first growled at her new babies but after about 24 hours and about 8 Pet-Cals, everything settled in to being normal. We keep a bottle handy all the time now, honestly I would use this over cottage cheese but both are effective.
We just kept the babies away in a separate basket, held the mom down while the babies nursed, then took them away and kept them relieved. Normally it takes about 24 hours for the supplements to take effect. You can tell by the expression when things are starting to change. Once you get the expression change, she will want to hesitantly "lick at them".

We give Tums - 2 times a day - total about 1500mg.

I have bitch that whelped last year that grumbled at the pups, on and off, the whole time. I really think she did not know how to communicate with the little guys. This is not related to what you have experienced - I think calcium will help your girl.

Try breaking Pet-Cal into 4-6 pieces if she will not take them as a treat, you can give the pieces like pills. We have had to do that before.
The alternative is take her to your vet for a Calcium shot, that really works pretty quickly. If you have a good relationship with them, just go by and pick one up and do it yourself.

I have not been able to find it for the past 4 years.

While I too believe it maybe her calcium, Please do not play vet. Oral Calcium is safe but IM or IV is not unless you get a calcium level. Take her to the vet and have her checked, please.

One of my mentors suggested to use evaporated milk, I had a bitch that would get a bit jittery after whelping, though her calcium levels were within normal range. I tried that and the extra vitamin c and she was back to her usual contented self within about a half a day.


I always keep some on hand now and buy some just before they whelp,though I haven't had to use it lately for the girls, but you can always make a dessert out of it!!!

Your vet is the best place, that is where we get ours. I have also seen it at Petsmart. If you do a search on Pet-Cal there are multiple places to order it.

I also agree with the calcium deficiency. This is textbook. If it is a calcium deficiency, once her calcium is brought back to normal she will be a normal loving mother and no need to spay. It's a tragedy but it happens. Next time make sure she gets less calcium during her pregnancy, especially at the end. Good luck!

Read the bottles, Tums has more calcium than most calcium tablets. it is a good rule of thumb to give one or two a day during lactation.

As others have pointed out it can cause aggressive behavior, if this is the case you can not blame her she did not have control over those feelings.

i took the bitch to the vet yesterday after the attack and she checked out fine
her temp was normal, everything was normal
very frustrating
and thanks for all of your suggestions believe it or not this is all very helpful
jan

i dont blame her and she clearly was seeing demons for a lack of a better word. she didnt recognize that these were her pups and she didnt recognize me either

A friend with Gordon Setters had an almost identical situation...everything was normal. The litter was raised by a foster mother. The bitch is a specialty winner. While she did not kill any of her pups, she did attack my friend, ripped her arm open pretty good.

This is such a heartbreaking hobby.

I agree. This could be a calcium deficiency. Tums, Cal-sorb, something to bring her levels back to normal. She should have some sort of calcium supplement while she's nursing as indicated by her behavior. This is a sad story but when calcium levels are off after whelping a litter, there are lots of unexplainable things that can happen. If this is a special bitch, I wouldn't be so quick to wash her out. This happened to me and the bitch turned into a wonderful mother once I learned about what loss of calcium can do to them and what her needs were when caring for her puppies. This has nothing to do with behavior other than the result of low calcium levels.

My vet routinely suggests that I start my whelping bitches on Pet Cal tabs as soon as the first pup is born

What about checking the thyroid? I'm so sorry this happened. Things are hard enough those first few weeks. Good luck from here on in.

I think the frustration stems from this being rather textbook.

I agree. This is text book and the OP is now telling us her vet says everything is just fine with the bitch. That she's just nasty.

I feel sorry for the bitch! As everyone is trying to point out, bitches don't just turn into Cujo overnight unless there is a medical issue. In this case, just having a litter, calcium deficiency is text book for this behavior.

FYI, oral calcium sometimes may not be adaquate.
Find a good vet and get her a shot.

Classic low calcium incident plus a c-section delays the hormone rush of a natural whelping it can be 1 day it can be a week. I would give her yogurt, cal tabs cottage cheese etc to boost calcium, I give my girls TUMS during whelping just as a calcium treat.
I would give her another try with the pups closely monitoring her while she is nursing. I hate to see a bitch mourn for her pups, it may just have been an isolated incident especially if she is a first time Mom

Calcium or no calcium....the bitch could have just "lost it." Post Partum Depression?

I to, am sorry you had to go through this. These kinds of problems definately test you. BTW...I would have done the same thing as you. Spay her and let that be the end of it. I have been doing this long enough to know that I am not going to put myself through any more trouble than I have to with my dogs. Even if you could have gotten her back to normal for the rest of the way...would you want to worry about that again on the next litter? I wouldn't.

thanks everyone
for all of your thoughts
i need to move on to more positive thoughts which are the puppies
they seem to be doing well thanks to the surrogate.
the pups hopefully will all move on to their newhomes and who knows maybe we have the next big winner at westminister.
again thanks everyone
Jan