Labrador Retriever Forum

General Forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Which color/gender is easier to finish?

I am expecting my first conformation quality litter after breeding excellent field lines for years. It will be a yellow and black litter. I plan to keep one for myself. I may or may not use a handler. Which color/gender is easier to finish, yellow or black or doesn't it matter?

Also, any books or sites on pointers with choosing a show pup? I am experienced with temperment testing and have several certified friends to help in that area. I thoroughly researched lines and found a "perfect" champion sire but any other advice is much appreciated.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

We use the Puppy Puzzle Method for evaluating our litters. You can buy the DVD on Amazon.com.

Also Mary-Roslin Williams has a great book out for Raising, picking, showing and breeding Champions.

Good Luck with the litter.. hope you get the pup you desire.. it took me a few years of breeding, showing, and raising Labradors before I found the look I wanted that worked for us in the ring as well.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

Pat Hastings Puppy Puzzle DVD

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

First you need to get a good mentor. One whose dogs you admire that has many years experience in picking show pups, with success.
Don't know what "certified" to pick pups means, but the temperament requirements for pets and field dogs may be different than what you need in a show pup.
Next, if you have bred your field girl to a Ch sire, don't be disappointed if you don't get a show quality puppy in your litter.
It takes many generations out from field lines IF they are ever capable of producing conformation stock at all. You may never get it, at least in your lifetime, starting with a field style bitch.
I wish you the best of luck!
In answer to your question. Black, yellow, then choc. In that order.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

She actually is a bitch from show lines that I purchased from a breeder with family issues who had to close her kennels. At the time, I loved her temperament and retrieve drive but was clueless about conformation.
Once I decided I really like the "English" temperament and conformation and that they can hunt (contrary to what field people say!!), I was going to start fresh but breeders who noticed my girl in the obedience ring kept making comments on her topline, tail carriage, head, neck, bone, etc.
Also, my friends do have temperment testing certification - they have worked for service dog training facilities in the past and give private lessons on rehabilitating problem dogs.

Thanks for all the great pointers, resources, and answer to original question!

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

Service dog organizations look for a different type of temperament then we want for conformation. So your friends with the temperament testing certifications may not be familiar with the best temperament for conformation. Service dog organizations want puppies who are intelligent but laid back. You definitely don't want an extremely laid back pup for conformation. If you can find a show person to evaluate your litter that will be the most helpful.
Some judges put up mainly yellow Labs and some put up mainly black Labs, and there are some who put up the best Lab that day regardless of color.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

I think the quality is in the blacks, so they should be easier to finish. But, because the quality is in the blacks, the competition is stiffer in the Open Black classes. So, that may make it harder to finish. In other words, i have no clue.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

I think a male is easier to finish, but I would want a bitch for breeding, if I were in your spot. Either color male should be easier to finish than a bitch.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

I never look at a litter and wonder which color/gender would be easier to finish but instead look for a puppy that is structurally correct, has a showy attitude, great coat, nice head, good, tight feet, otter tail and that I personally would be proud to walk in the ring with. There will always be judges that don't like what you have and at the end of the day I am always happy to go home with what I have.

Evaluating puppies is really an art so finding a mentor would be really helpful.

Good luck!

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

You know, its all about the dog...not the color. Find a few mentors you respect and have been successful in the conformation ring...and ones that are "independent thinkers" and don't "run with the flavor of the month" but who really know structure and movement. One of my mentors taught me structure, the other taught me movement, both were invaluable. We are a team when evaluating pups, and we all see something different.

I know some judges can be color blind, perhaps...but you know what...even if I have a choc, and I don't really like to show choc's(only a personal preference) ...if she has great movement and structure, you better believe I'm going to breed her to the right BLACK, keep blacks to show, her genetics are the most important, not what color she is.
I wish you wonderful success. I truly do. Bless you.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

EML
and I don't really like to show choc's(only a personal preference) ...if she has great movement and structure, you better believe I'm going to breed her to the right BLACK, keep blacks to show, her genetics are the most important, not what color she is.
I wish you wonderful success. I truly do. Bless you.


If you don't care what color a puppy is, just that it's good.........why would you NOT show a chocolate just because it's chocolate??? And why would breed a chocolate to a black JUST to keep a black to show????
Doesn't make sense and seems to contridict yourself a bit there.
That kind of attitude is part of whats wrong in chocolates. people are afraid to show them because it will be expensive.
But how else are we going to improve the color other than getting it out there and showing it and breeding it correctly, then taking the next, hopefully better generation of chocolate and doing the same??

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

AMEN ! I sure agree with you about the chocolates. Everyone wants to own just one, most never know what to do with them. Interesting about not liking to show them. Never heard that.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

(giggle), actually I do show chocolates...just don't "prefer" (as I stated) to because mine LOVE to sit outside in the sun and fade, then they get the two-tone thing goin', ugh...that is the ONLY reason. But I DO show the chocolates ONLY when they are fully in coat and totally not faded. Which is harder to do than yellows and blacks who don't 'fade' in the sun! LOL! So I end up showing less chocolates for that reason, not because they are not worthy...not that at all!

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

If the gal who bred your dam can help, she may have an inside track on how her line develops, as may stud owner. It can be fun to have a puppy picking party, with an experienced breeder or three giving their opinions. You can have the service dog folk there, too, and they can learn from each other. Sometimes they all agree, whereas other times they don't. Take photos of the puppies stacked on a table--and let the experienced breeders stack them for you, and another good one photograph, to make sure the right pose is in the camera. Nice thing with digital cameras, there is no waiting to develop, but the delay in most may let the pups shift. If nothing else, it is good socialization for the pups and a good excuse for a gathering. After it is over, you can pour over the photos. Just be sure to have colored ID (collars or rick rack) on the pups. My girls won't leave it on the newborns, but thin, soft rick rack works well for fast ID in photos and conversation on the picking day or days, even if you paint toenails or trim fur. The photos are priceless learning tools as you see how your litter develops, and as you go on in the breeding program over the years. Some of my fondest newbie memories are of being invited to learn when experienced breeders, some now passed, were evaluating litters in both my breeds. Good luck and have fun!

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

Dogs are easier to finish than bitches. It come down to simple arithmetic. As a rule, there is almost always a winners dog and a winners bitch. It takes fewer dogs than bitches to earn points at all levels.

This is division I (chosen because it is at the top of the list)

3 dogs 4 bitches 1 point
13 dogs 17 bitches 2 points
23 dogs 29 bitches 3 points
35 dogs 53 bitches 4 points
56 dogs 97 bitches 5 points

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

The best puppy out of the litter should be the easiest to finish. :-)

Truthfully, I have had yellow finish faster than black even when (IMO) the black I was showing at the same time was of similar quality.

Yellow dogs and bitches have been easiest for me if they are flashy and move well.

I don't necessarily buy what the previous poster said about a male being easier to finish becuase of numbers. Look at any show and there are usually more bitches entered. I have seen several shows with bitch majors where the dogs are stuck at 2 pts and have to cross over for a major. It can be harder to find dog majors because most breeders will keep a bitch or two out of every litter but may only keep one boy in a decade if he's really nice.

Also, numbers can vary greatly depending on your location. The numbers given earlier are some of the highest. In the TX/OK region the numbers are much lower.

2 dogs 1 pt 2 bitches 1 pt
8 dogs 2 pts 11 bitches 2 pts
14 dogs 3 pt major 19 bitches 3 pt major
19 dogs 4 pt major 28 bitches 4 pt major
27 dogs 5 pt major 45 bithces 5 pt major

I still believe picking the best will make it easier to finish regardless of color or sex.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

Breeder
The best puppy out of the litter should be the easiest to finish. :-)

Truthfully, I have had yellow finish faster than black even when (IMO) the black I was showing at the same time was of similar quality.

Yellow dogs and bitches have been easiest for me if they are flashy and move well.

I don't necessarily buy what the previous poster said about a male being easier to finish becuase of numbers. Look at any show and there are usually more bitches entered. I have seen several shows with bitch majors where the dogs are stuck at 2 pts and have to cross over for a major. It can be harder to find dog majors because most breeders will keep a bitch or two out of every litter but may only keep one boy in a decade if he's really nice.

Also, numbers can vary greatly depending on your location. The numbers given earlier are some of the highest. In the TX/OK region the numbers are much lower.

2 dogs 1 pt 2 bitches 1 pt
8 dogs 2 pts 11 bitches 2 pts
14 dogs 3 pt major 19 bitches 3 pt major
19 dogs 4 pt major 28 bitches 4 pt major
27 dogs 5 pt major 45 bithces 5 pt major

I still believe picking the best will make it easier to finish regardless of color or sex.


The best, no matter colour or sex. I don't see any reason not to show any colour if it's the best you have.

Re: Which color/gender is easier to finish?

Black male at specialties
Light yellow male at All breed shows