Can someone please explain what the big fuss is about EIC?

I know what it is, so here is my point -

I have dogs that run hard and heavy every day. They run with me over 40 minutes each either retrieving, swimming, frisbee and being as active as a dog that would be entered in a triathalon. I have never seen any problems or any signs that would lead me to believe that they have EIC.

There are also dogs out there with MH titles and GMHR titles and so on that HAVE EIC and they run hard and heavy and show no signs of it. I would think that the owners would not want to run them for fear that they would have an episode in public but they haven't as far as I know.

I was at an event last year where a black bitch was running so hard that it became weak and just about crawled up to the to the line. People ran up, threw her in a tub of ice and the first question was "Was she tested for EIC?". It was a great question, but the vet on call said "This isn't EIC, this is heat exhaustion" and come to find out she was EIC effected!

If a dog can pass out and die before EIC what is the point? Why do we need to test dogs that run hard and heavy and never show signs? isn't EIC primarily in hyper and field lines as it says in the EIC information page?

I am not saying EIC is rare, what I am saying is at what point is an issue an issue? Will we have 20+ tests eventually we have to pass to make sure we can use a dog or bitch in our breeding program? If you look hard enough at each dog I am sure you will find something wrong and pretty soon we won't have anything to breed. Is this all hype or why would I want to be concerned with this?

Please explain to me so I can understand. No flaming intended.

EIC Wanna know.

Here Here, couldn't agree more if I tried. I too have dogs that run hard most days. If not runing they are hunting, and rough hard hunting at that. I have just been reading an English judges comments on the Labrador in general an how a dog that has always been a moderate dog in size is now becoming too heavy. I do wonder if this in some way has contributed to dogs collapsing, not because of EIC but because their larger bodies cannot handle the hard exercise. I am sure I will get flamed here but so be it. The Labrador is a sporting breed and as such should be able to work all day, I am sad to say some of the dogs I am seeing in the show ring haven't got a hope of working half a day let alone a whole day.

My moderate show bred puppy, sired by imported European stud dog, collapsed and was diagnosed with EIC PRIOR to the test and confirmed by the test.

It's not all about the field dogs or dogs that train in the field.

It's about that call from a puppy buyer telling you that you have a problem in your lines that you never expected in a million years.

If we had to see, experience or breed a health problem to believe it existed where would the Labrador be?

What's wrong with erring on the side of caution?

I know it costs a bit more but if we can afford the money for progesterone testing, veterinarian appointments, and stud fees, why can't we come up with a couple hundred more to know what we're breeding?

Your post is confusing. You say a bitch collapsed, a vet said it was heat exhaustion, and she was found to be EIC affected. So, because a vet on the scene said it was heat exhaustion, are you totally discounting the possibility he was wrong, and the bitch had an episode of EIC collapse? If you think it may be possible she did have an episode, than that should answer you question about what all the fuss is about.

The EIC test does identify a gene "associated" with the disease. It is NOT at all the complete picture.

Let's face - a dog collapses - tests positive for EIC does not say every dog tested positive for EIC will be affected. It is too complex a disease for this test to catch on one gene.

If you think of it this way: It takes heat, oxygen and fuel to make a fire. Three things. If you can test for one of these components you cannot say that everything in the presence of HEAT will combust. Or Oxygen. But when you see a fire - and see there was a heat source (or oxygen or fuel) you cannot draw the conclusion that if oxygen is present - a fire will occur.

The same thing for this test. One marker does not a disease make. Hopefully that makes sense.

I"ve been adopting out pups to families who already own an affected EIC dog, out of very well known stud dogs and dams. This whole EIC thing is no different than any other genetic problem where there is a few very popular stud dogs that are carriers of this and that. If the dams that are being bred to these popular boys are also carriers of say EIC then before long, their young kids are cropping up with EIC.

The fact that there are some Labradors who tested as EIC affected but have never collapsed as an adult, says to me that this EIC gene is a bit more complicated in how it is actually produced in a litter of pups. I'm sure the researchers have the testing 80 % nailed down and trust worthy but there is still room for error .

I would still test your breeding dogs and bitches for EIC especially if the sire and dam of your proposed breeding are known to be EIC carriers or have produced it. HOw big a deal could it be to EIC test your breeding stock ? The more we test our dogs, the more information we can add to the supposed mystery of the EIC gene.

For example, if your dog has been collapsing and you get it tested and it comes back " Normal " then that gives us some information..not necessarily good information but it says that this current EIC test needs some working on. On the other hand, the more we EIC test our breeding stock and the more our dogs come back " Clear " consistantly without any affected pups being produced, the more I will believe this test is accurate.

The EIC gene has to be poly in nature or why else would an supposedly tested as affected dog never collapse ?

I see two scenarios developing and both of them involve people testing their dogs whether it be publically or privately.

1. Stud dog owners that have the attention of the community and have boys that people want to use are going to get enough inquiries about EIC status that they are going to test because at the end of the day, they want that boy to keep getting used and having influence.

2. Breeders will do some testing whether it be for interest sake or perhaps they have produced an affected pup. My breeder has just confirmed that a textbook collapsing pup is affected through the U of M test. They were skeptical about EIC until that call came along with some long conversations and a video. Both parents were show bred dogs with CH's. Puppy buyers are getting more savy all the time and may begin asking for this clearance. When a breeder is faced with this scenario I find it hard to believe that they won't test, no matter how skeptical they might be.

The sooner everyone gets themselves sorted out the better as far as I am concerned. I have had my boy tested and he came back a carrier. Knowledge is power. Now I can help to find him a clear bitch and we can work on keeping all of the wonderful qualities he has which includes some real field drive as well as getting a clear pup from him at some point that I can continue the line with. It's a relief to know that he is not affected, but even if he was, it could have managed by breeding to a clear bitch and producing a litter of carriers. Two generations of work, but still worth it if you believe in the line.

I know that a prospect has a lot of hoops to jump through now, but this is an easy one and even the worst case scenario doesn't remove them from a breeding program, it gives confidence to know that no pet family is ever going to call us with a heartbreaking story of how their baby falls down and can't get up.

Testing testing makes some good points. I see some confusion in several other posts.

One of the posters is correct that EIC has become so prevalent because several outstanding producers happened to be carriers. This has occurred in the field lines and the show lines fairly recently, but it seems to be a coincidence that both gene pools were so heavily affected at the same time. The dogs that passed on EIC were heavily used because they were otherwise outstanding, so we should be exceedingly grateful that it happened in this age of DNA testing when a test could be developed to identify carriers. Because of that, we will be able to use these superior bloodlines safely. I've been around long enough to remember the PRA scare in the early 90s when there were no tests available and some wonderful stud dogs were retired- that need not happen now. EIC may have existed for many years, being confused with heat prostration, even by vets on the scene, as one of the posters described. It was fortuitous that someone recognized that something else was going on and stimulated research on the condition.

Why worry if your dog does not collapse? I, personally know of a Master Hunter from show lines that has never collapsed and is genetically affected. So it is possible for an affected dog to lead an active life and not express any symptoms. This means that you could have a genetically affected dog and not even know it unless you test. HOWEVER, when bred to a carrier bitch, this dog produced offspring that were affected to a degree that they cannot be hunted with or even trained without great precautions. So the fact that a particular affected dog does not collapse does not make it safe to breed them to carriers.

Yes, this is a complicated condition, and it may very well involve several contributing factors- heat, oxygen, and fuel, as another contributor suggested. But we aren't trying to produce fire; we are trying to keep things from burning. To prevent fire we can control the heat by never letting the dog exercise- not what many of us want to do. We don't know the identity of the other genetic or environmental factors that cause the condition- the oxygen in the analogy. But we do know the source of the fuel and we can eliminate it, as a homeowner living in the woods clears dead wood from around the house. Dogs that are clear and carriers do not collapse from EIC- only dogs that have inherited two copies of the mutated form of the dynamin 1 gene, the E/E dogs, have the fuel that makes them collapse. So we can eliminate the fuel by not producing E/E dogs - always having one clear parent in every breeding. The fact that we don't know about the other factors causing EIC doesn't keep us from preventing the condition; we know how to prevent it. And it doesn't keep us from using our carriers and even our E/E dogs if we do it wisely.

Genetic tests for recessive genes have changed the rules for breeders. We no longer have to eliminate dogs from our breeding programs to avoid a genetic problem. We just have to test for the condition and avoid breeding carriers to carriers or affecteds. Yes, it will be more expensive, and breeding will be more complicated, because another poster is correct that the more things we test more, the fewer dogs will be clear for everything. But we'll be making informed choices based on what we know about the genetics of the dog. The recessive conditions are there now- we just don't know about them.

Many people are still of the mindset that we had to employ before genetic testing existed, that a carrier is defective and must be avoided. After all, it's been only a decade or so since we first got a genetic test- and it turned out to be flawed. Having lived through previous scares about genetic diseases, they are avoiding testing their dogs because they don't want them branded as carriers. Maybe it's a resistance to the expense, as well. For those of you who, like myself, have some carriers and are frustrated by the refusal of stud dog owners to test, realize that time will tell. Most people are using the PRA test now, and eventually the EIC test will come to be used more and more. Meanwhile, there are some very nice dogs that are tested EIC clear. There is no need to compromise quality in order to avoid carriers. And yes, some stud dog owners will test if you ask them to. But if you wouldn't breed to a particular stud dog if he were a carrier, don't breed to him if he is untested.

As more people test and time goes by the status of those popular stud dogs will become known, tested or not. Those who have clear girls that can be bred freely will be able to somewhat determine the status of a stud based on the test results of their girl's offspring.

The threads of information will all come together eventually, "the proof is in the pudding".

It would seem to me that the wiser course would be to test your boy and be upfront about the results rather than let the word spread by innuendo and suspician.

Non disclosure leaves those of us with a carrier pup out of a clear girl in an awkward position. If I post that pup and his mothers status on the OFA or Labradata it leaves open to interpretation what the status of the stud dog is if his owner chooses not to disclose.

Even if I don't post the information on a database, sooner or later I hope my pup will generate interest and I will disclose his status.

Some of you choose to get so caught up in the scientific lingo that you are missing the big point. I have been concerned about EIC from one breeding I did 2 yrs ago, and just last week, had that dreaded call. Dog from a CH/performance breeding that hunts and jogs w/ owner avidly has now collapsed twice in ball fetch mode with the son. The owner is clearly concerned, as he should be! Dogs HAVE died as a result from EIC. Get your heads out of the sand.

A subtlety that I think is often lost in genetic test discussions is this... No one dog has the exact same combination of genes as another dog. If they did, they would all be clones and all equal in appearance and performance potential. Expecting to find one single reason why some dogs may not express a gene mutation to the same extent (unless its a HUGE contributing factor), is from a biological standpoint extremely unlikely. It doesn't make a test less valid, but it does make the syndrome more nuanced.

Thank you "Not a Field Dog". Just a couple years ago a Golden Retriever show/breeder friend told me of a comment made to her by another GR breeder who said they'd rather own a very pretty dog that died young from cancer than a mediocre (basically pet) dog that lived long. My friend and I both found that very disturbing. Now look at all the GRs dying at 9 and younger from cancer. What a shame these comments come from so called 'stewards' of the breeds.

Is there a list of "very prominent", "popular", "famous" and "specialty winning" carriers of EIC? If breeders have puppies by these great ones (and that's all very subjective), and you want to help, share or reinforce the use of this test in order to prevent more of the same, why isn't there a list? Having to wade through Maureen's site is tedious and frustrating. Daily reading of posts that announce that their dog is affected or a carrier but no pedigree is confusing. We had an early, plain and simple list of PRA/Optigen Labradors, why not EIC?

The bitch collapsed due to heat exhaustion and it had nothing to do with EIC but the bitch had EIC. The vet rushed her to a vat of ice water and she recovered in about 15 minutes. It wasn't weak rear or the typical EIC signs. She was panting so hard her sides were sucking in and ran full tilt the whole time until the last few steps she just fell over panting. So if this bitch had EIC and ran that hard where she would pass out from heat exhaustion first....then how is EIC an issue?

Thank you everyone for your replies. Now the question is, where do I go to get an EIC test? Is there a site with a list of dogs with EIC or that are carriers??

Thank you again. Your information was very helpful. Kudos to everyone for no flaming!! Great community here.