I have a yellow boy that comes from a tri colored breeding by the sire and mother (both tri-colored) and his pigmentation is a bit lighter than black, (choco nose) if bred will this continue down the line or is it just this offspring.

Are you talking about a Labrador? They don't come in tri-color. Maybe you could explain what you mean.

Maybe you mean both parents are Byc ?

I'm guessing a litter that produced all 3 colors?

You can have a yellow with black pigmentation, but not great black pigmentation. But that's different than a chocolate nose. If the nose is brown, the lips, eye rims, pads, and gums all need to be brown too. And usually those yellows have the lighter eyes as puppies. Oh, and the mustache under the nose isn't black but brown.

So what kind of yellow are you talking about? A regular yellow with poor pigmentation or a yellow No Black Pigment?

The answer to the OP's question is explained very well in http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm, scroll down about 2/3 of the way and look for the subject: "While on the Subject of Yellow Labs…" Happy reading!

Nancy, does that site explain how to achieve good pigment. Someone had said to me if I bred my black girl who carries yellow to their yellow boy, the pigment in the pups would be good.

Good pigment on a yellow dog is black. But, our breed standard, with all it's faults, does not address chocolate pigment on a yellow.

# Nose - The nose should be wide and the nostrils well-developed. The nose should be black on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment is a disqualification.

The standard disqualifies something that no one has ever seen. A nose lacking any pigment. I have never seen one, and either has anyone I know. I believe the intent was to disqualify the brown noses on yellows, but that is not what it says. There IS pigment on the brown nosed labs. Brown pigment. I have heard that judges will disqualify brown nosed labs, and because of that, no one shows them, but that is not the disqualification in the standard. If anyone has a picture of a true no-pigment lab, please post it. I would like to see it.

I guess what I'm asking is, how does one achieve good pigment in their breeding program. This may seem a silly, ignorant question, but, I'm new to this and would like to learn. As my Irish Grandma would say, if you're going to do something, do it right.

Breed to boys that produce good pigment. Look at dogs at specialties that have good pigment, and see who their daddies are.

My question is, if you breed a yellow girl with so, so pigment to a black, will their puppies have good pigment. And, if you breed a black girl carrying yellow, and you breed to a yellow, will their puppies have good pigment? Does the yellow male bring out the pigment in the pups?

It doesn't matter. Breed to a dog that produces good pigment. You could breed to a black that produces bad pigment, and get bad pigment. You could breed to a yellow that produces bad pigment and get bad pigment. You cold breed to a chocolate that produces good pigment, and get good pigment. It is not the color of the dog you are breeding to that will determine how good or bad the pigment is. It is the dog itself.

Again, silly question. How can you tell if a black has good pigment?

How do you tell if a yellow puppy is going to have good pigment? Is it born with blacker pigment that gets darker sooner than it's not so nicely pigmented relatives? Can the pigment be very, very black as a puppy and get lighter as the dog matures? I have seen these things happen and have been told, as I'm sure others have, that in order to get yellows with better pigment you must breed to black carrying yellow and yet I have seen yellows with faded looking pigment who have two black parents. It makes sense to me then that we must look for lines that seem to reproduce nice pigmentation.

Thanks a lot guys, you´ve all been a wealth of information and knowledge, what I meant by tri-colored is that they both (sire & dam) are Byc.
Thanks to all again.

But remember, what everyone keeps telling you. You have to look at the stud dogs parents, black pigment if they are yellow ? Black stud that carrys yellow. Did his pups have nice black pigment. You just can not just look at the dog. They are full of all kinds of genes. The outside packages is just carrying them.

There are yellow Labs with very pink pigment, no brown under nose, as in a newborn yellow puppy. I googled Dudley Labrador Retriever and came up with this photo. Sometimes in a darker yellow, the pigment is darker pink.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38290839@N02/3522701826/in/pool-dudleylabs

I have read articles on pigmentation and genetics about pigmentation, but nothing takes the place of actually doing test type breedings to see what happens.

What I have found is that the pigmentation on the nose is sort of carried like a recessive. (concerning lack of black, not the presence of chocolate)

For instance. People say that if you breed a yellow bitch that is lacking some of her black pigmentation to a black dog you will regain that pigmentation in your yellow puppies. That isn't always true. If the black dog is out of a black sire and a yellow dam with poor pigmentation then you are not really helping your breeding program at all. He will still have the possibility of throwing poor pigmentation Just because a dog is black does not mean he will throw good pigment.

Here is another kicker. Just because you see a yellow dog with a black nose in a picture does not mean he has good pigmentaton. Some times they have good rim and lip pigmentation and if their nose is lacking they color it.

Knowing the pigmentation behind what you have is the key and only using yellows and blacks that do have solid black pigmentation.

I have found this true with eye color as well, especially in chocolates, but applied a bit differently.

I hope this helps.
Alayne

Is this puppy a NBP?
May be it's to small but I don't know how to put it in this side.
Thanks.

Is tiny photo and I can't see age of pup, but do see dark pads. I see black pigment starting in just a couple days on a puppy in both Labs and Cavaliers, although my 3 week old Cavaliers don't have all their black pigment in yet. Tollers can have NBP, and a US Brittany is supposed to, as is a Viszla.

How old is the puppy?

As much as I hate to get into these debates about eebb yellows (NBPs), I thought I'd give a few examples of what we are looking at. Remember that black pigment can fade on yellows giving an appearance of brown pigment (the fleshy color nose under the poor black pigment or fading black pigmentation). However, these dogs DID at one time have and may still have black pads, eye rims, lips, etc. They are either eeBB or eeBb (remember the B locus controls the pigmentation coloring). When we are breeding dogs that both carry or are yellow and/or chocolate, EeBb, eeBb or eebb, then that is where this combination can occur-eebb. This yellow combination may have brown pigment, but it CAN and DOES have the fleshy colored nose (and yes I've seen bright pink) that is described as a "dudley" nose. AKC's definition of a dudley nose is a fleshy colored. Now this is where it all gets tricky. The color, shading, variation, etc is all open to interpretation. Wouldn't it have been nice if the LRC simply put that the NBP was a disqualification, rather than the pink without pigmetation? It does state in the standard that the pigment is to be black on yellows. So at the very least an NBP is a fault as it deviates from the standard.

But as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a couple of examples.

The first is a yellow with poor pigment. Note that although his nose is without black pigment, that his eye rims and skin under his nose is black.



This is an example of an NBP (eebb). Notice how the eye rims are also a dark shade of pink as his nose, and skin underneath. I found this photo already labled as a dudley.



And here is a photo of a chocolate lab with chocolate pigmentation. I hear many times people calling NBPs, chocolate or liver pigmented yellows. You be the judge, does this yellow have the same color pigment as this chocolate?



I do not have anything against NBPs btw, it is one of the easiest things to breed back in! Just simply take her to a yellow or black who doesn't carry chocolate and you have your black pigment back.

Hope this helps,

Dianne Mullikin, EMT-B
Los Angeles, CA

In answer to the question, "How do you know if a pup will have good pigment when it's born?" I have bred field dogs in the past where pigment was not such an issue and we had several Dudley's. In general, the color of the pigment when eyes opened remained the color of the pigment for life.

5 weeks

Gosh that's not been my experience at all!
I have had yellow pups with questionable pigment at 8 weeks that later had perfect pigment, by say 12 weeks.
Now I am more talking a black nose at the tip but not all the way around yet at 8 weeks, like a Cavalier's pigment comes in.
Or pink spots on the foot pads.
Sometimes they blacken, sometimes they don't but on small things like that, I wait 12 weeks to see.

With a thoroughly pink nose, yes 5 weeks would tell you. But again, if you see ANY black at all, give it some more time.

Five weeks, with black pigment on pads? Maybe this is just a slow-to-fill-in puppy. Has weeks to go yet. Or maybe it is some mismark that I don't know in Labs. If there is black pigment on pads, it is NOT a NBP pup. In Cavaliers, it can take months or years to fill in the nose, although we see Blenheims with some black marking on nose at this age in my line. The brother of the dam of my current CKCS litter just filled in the last segment on his nose at 3.5 years! The saying is "slow to come, slow to go" in Cavaliers, but some never fill in--in a very different breed with spotting patterns. Be sure to check with those who own or bred the stud dog and/or dam to see how other pups have gone in their lines. What I see as normal in Labs I know may not be at all normal for your yellow line! Let us know how this goes for this pup. Good luck with this sweet baby.