I was at a show this weekend and am so frustrated and confused as to the judging of all breed judges. First, I show my dog in the bred-by classes at specialties he has many first places as well as many reserve winners dog and something like 6 Best Bred-by's in California. This dog has both majors and needs only a few points to finish yet when I walk him into an all breed ring the judge looks at him like he is from outer space. I don't get how the breeder judges from around the world can like this dog but I can't even get his last points to finish this deserving dog at smaller shows with less dogs.

sounds like you have a typey boy and the all 'rounders just don't "get it"...

look for AB shows with breeder/judges and you should do just fine!!!

Finish him at a Specialty.

Maybe your dog is overdone for the all breed judges or not balanced enough. The breeder judges (most of them anyway) will tolerate those overdone dogs with shorter legs whereas the all breed judges are going by the standard. I have a boy also that only wins at the specialty shows and he's IMHO a correct gorgeous boy but it's like pulling teeth to get those all breed show wins.

From my experience, many all breed judges look for a dog that is more athletic, had nice movement and conforms to the overall breed standard.

From what I've seen at specialty shows is some (not all) judges put more emphasis on what the dog looks like standing - head, coat, tail, not the ability to perform a day's work in the field.

I've also seen a lot more politics going on at specialty shows (at the breed level).

If you dog does better at specialties, then try to finish him at a specialty.

Just my 2 cents

Every judge is entitled to his/her opinion. The judge just didn't like your dog. Your comments are not only disrespectful of the judge's opinion but also the exhibitor whose dog was picked as WD.

Oh please. No one was disrespectful here.
Personally, I'd rather have a dog that wins consistantly under breeder/judges than one who wins at generic A/B shows.
That is not because either dog is of better quality, like you said, to each his own. It's because I LIKE the specialty type dog far better than an A/B type dog.
There is a huge difference.
Which is right?
To each his own...

Can you imagine making these comments to the judge face-to-face?

How about the exhibitor whose dog was picked as WD?

How about every all-breed judge you meet?

The question wasn't about judges, it was about judging style.
The answers are truthful.
breeder/Judges pick differently than A/B judges.
So what?
I'm quite sure they know it too!!!
I wouldn;t expect an A/B judge to know type like a breeder/judge. They have a book from which to learn from. breeder/judges have many years of first hand EXPERIENCE.

I have just about given up showing to all-breed judges. I hardly go to all breed shows, unless I really know that the judge "knows" a Lab when he/she sees it.

Why bother?

Don't feel bad, just PICK the judges that might like your dog.

Yeah well, my questions stand and aren't about judging style but about good sportsmanship.

I agree, I mostly go to specialtys. All breed judges will put up anything. And they really like a professional handler on the lead. Look for breeder judges or judges that judge Labs alot in the past.
Nothing to do with sportsmanship, its just a fact. But that means there is a place for all Labs.

"unless I really know that the judge "knows" a Lab when he/she sees it."

Your implication seems to be that A/B judges who like a more moderate dog that could work a day in the field, do not "know" labs.

I am not one to defend some of judging that goes on at an A/B, because it can be atrocious at times. From my experience, movement is important, especially if they have any hope of a group placement. They are in the Sporting Group and while I don't expect them to move with as much flair as a Gordon, they sure better not move like a Clumber either.

It is like anything else. You need to know how to play the game. Here are a couple of all breed rules. There are probably more.

Hand stack
Fine choke chain with Resco lead.
Take some weight off.
Study the judges record on Infodog.
Dress a little better than you might at a specialty show.

It is also my experience that they tend to put up dogs that more resemble the current trends in Europe or Britain. Moderate dog, good bone, proper coat (not more is better) and they have to have an average leg height rather than being on the shorter side of the standard.

It appears that there are now THREE breed standards. The field type, the all breed & the specialty. I show at both AB & Spec' and I hate to say it but there are a lot of dogs out there that are just "Too Much dog". What is the point of having a breed standard if no-one bothers to stand by it. JMHO

OK, I always try to give people/judges the benefit of the doubt, and feel that often good dogs are found. But regardless of your preference of "style" of Labrador, what frustrates me is how often the all breed judge doesn't seem to reward good structure. I find it hard to understand how that happens. Shouldn't *all* judges know correct structure?

And to suggest to the OP that she finish her dog at a specialty is unfair. It is a rare dog who can finish with all specialty wins. We depend on there being enough all breed judges out there who will reward nice Labradors to be able to finish our own nice Labradors, rather than have to pay a handler. Otherwise the owner/handler becomes discouraged and stops showing, and that would be a crisis.

I have thought there have been three diverging styles of Labradors for some time now - just as My Two Cents stated: Field, Specialty and A/B.

Becky, I also concur with you regarding structure. If an A/B judge happens to prefer and more moderate dog, fine - but when a dog which has something in it's structure that is obviously undesirable in the breed standard, that IS frustrating. I would hope that a dog that is balanced and structurally the closest to being correct would place highly, no matter the style.

For instance, I am seeing too many dogs who have a very short upper arm and not nearly enough front, but do have a nice rear. I think a nice rear is easier to idenitify and therefore gains the dog points. Some dogs who are weak in the front can still move really well so it is not as obvious a fault there either. In that case, most other things being equal, should the balanced dog win or the one with one a terrible front and good rear?

Thank you Becky you hit the nail on the head about structure and handlers. First of all, this dog is not perfect but he is nicely balanced, nice front and rear, not over weight, fit and a nice mover. He is a big dog with good bone and could use a little more leg and he has one specialty winners dog but he is six and I would like to get him finished.

To the person who said I was wrong, you are wrong and judgmental since I didn't say anything about any other dogs. I don't even know who winners dog was as I left before winners dog even though he was 2nd of 2. I hope it was the bred-by dog so they were looking for my boy to go in for reserve but I don't know. In regards to the showing I think these judges are disrespectful to me and my dog.
I am done with all breed show judges if they aren't a breeder I am not taking any of my dogs to the show.

It is true that a lot of all breed judges don't know structure but then we've also have specialty judges that didn't either, one in particular comes to mind who was a labrador breeder judge and I just couldn't believe she put up this bitch that had a hole in her back like a nag horse. The bitch was also under the standard argh! You take your chances with any judge you show under, it is one person's opinion and you just don't know what they will do.
Don't give up on the all breed judges, some DO know a good dog when they see it so you shouldn't generalize that all are bad.
Aloha,
Jackie

I wouldn't discount ALL all breed judges. There are quite a few who do a credible if not outstanding job of finding the right dog, and whose judging is right up there with breeder judges. But it is frustrating to watch some all breed judges walk out every dog in the ring that has been pointed in the past, and leave himself with only average specimens from which to select Winners. Or worse yet, to see the winners lineup and not be able to see any two dogs of the same style. These judges clearly have no understanding of our breed and cannot interpret beyond the words of our standard - a predictable outcome of the combination of allowing judges in the ring who have absolutely no background in our breed and not requiring a smattering of real education to compensate for their lack of experience. For these judges, the argument that all breed judges pick dogs who meet the standard, and breeder judges don't, is simple hogwash. These are the judges who have never slipped on camo and shot over a good working dog - the closest some of them have come is to watch the AKC breed video. That's just not good enough.

Where do these judges get the right to judge our breed? Well, the open book breed standard examination given to prospective judges does nothing to educate, is a farce and does a disservice to judges who seek to honestly judge this breed. The questions are so simplistic as to require little or no knowledge of any breed, much less Labradors. They are almost this bad:

The head on a Labrador Retriever should be:
a. small
b. narrow
c. on the rump
d. on top of the neck

I don't have the answer to this problem, but I know it is not what some of the responders think. To win under some of these judges is not something I would advertise.

I appreciate your comments so much and it could not have been stated any better... Thank you!

One complaint I have heard consistently from all-breed and foreign breeder-judges is the weight of American dogs. Try this experiment: Cut back his food and take about 5 lbs off of him before you show him at another all-breed. Weigh him yourself or stop at your vet for a before and after weight. If he's got both his majors and has gotten a WD at a specialty, he certainly should be deserving, but many all-breed judges put a lot of emphasis on the following line from the standard: "Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat." Good luck!

reading with great interest your comments on all breed judges, and one question comes to mind, as also europeian judges were mentioned?

what is the training of the judges like?

in finland, judges first have to pass the various tests of FKC to be accepted as trainee. they have to been breeders for a certain period, might be 10 years?
worked as ringstewards for sertain time.

starting the breeds, with their own breed. FKC allowes new breeds little by little, and every new breed starts with breed club´s educational teaching day...

next, several trainee-judings done under official judges and getting a valuation from the judge..

FKC arranges a collegium, where the breed club in question has its own breed judges and 1 FKC judge to give the final amen

the trainees get to judge a ceratin amount lets say labradors, puppies, females, males veterans...you name it...critics written on every dog (in finland every dog gets awritten critic at every show or field event), and the club judges have final say, if the trainees have the qualifications or not, and if they get aproved to judge the labradors or not.

in between all these events the trainee judge attends breed specialities, club shows, home and abroad, visits kennels talks, puts hands on...and when accepted to judge a new breed training goes on i would say weekly...i´m following all closely as one of my family members is on the interesting FKC (FCI) judge-road non stop: recently judging (she has about 270 accepted breeds) poland, ireland,japan,finland,charity match show,nortehrn finland finnish national hunting breeds...where the judge besides the written critic, speaks out loud her critic to the surrounding green dressed hunters. (she has been training with them as well in the woods listening to the barking of birds, moose you name it, i ahve been the driver.

yesterday was FKC judges monthly board meeting, tonight a collegium for a new breed, same on thursday next, our scedule going on non stop. not talking about an all breed judge yet, the finnish A/B judges are highly respected.

finland has huge, hugest beside crufts shows from 8500 dogs up, specialities are not that big and there are only about 5.5 million of us finns.

this just to let you get a small idea about the training judges here in finland get.
sorry for long mail, but not a must to read.
ritva

Showing in conformation can be very frustrating. I understand how you feel. That being said, we pay an entry fee in order to learn a judge's opinion of our dog. We have to accept that maybe he/she just doesn't like our dog that day, for whatever reason.
I personally show at occasional all breed shows if I think I might have a shot with that particular judge. It's easy enough to do a little research on the Web and among your Lab friends. I also record all the results along with comments about the judge for future reference.
I will say that my experience of late has been that if you enter under a judge who is also judging several other breeds that day, he/she usually seems to be in a big hurry. I've been rushed through a class on more than one occasion by a judge who doesn't even bother to do a thorough going-over. Never a good sign
I try to remember that saying: One day you're the dog; the next, you're the hydrant. Pretty much sums up conformation IMO.

You can also get involved with your local all breed club and have some say in who judges Labradors.

Not at all. I have watched and noted alot of judges. I certainly understand if they are consistent, what they prefer in a Lab. I do think that there are some judges out there that added Labs to their list of breeds and are not consistent.

And as my good friend always says, that dog won FOR TODAY! Maybe the dog didn't show so well on that day he lost? Another thing to remember is that every judge has his/her likes and dislikes and if every one of them liked the same dog and that dog was the only winner do you really think others would enter their dogs in the shows? Why should they if they know they don't stand a chance? So everyone good or bad has a chance at winning for that day.
Aloha,
Jackie

I agree with Kathy, I Agree, and Jackie. When it comes to dog events (all of them), I live by the following motto "You pays your money and takes your chances". I can't remember who said that to me, and, at the time, I thought they were crazy (not to mention undereducated- English teachers would have a field day with that grammar, lol). At that time, I thought there wasn't a situation I couldn't possibly train for and everything should be as clear cut as the standard and the rule books. Just a few short years later, you wouldn't believe the wisdom I see in those words!

Earlier this month, I went to an IABCA show with our now 5 month old puppy. Knowing full well these shows are judged by All Breed judges (2 of which who were Canadian), I realized there was a chance they may not like my Specialty style girl. However, I took my chances anyway. Turns out, there were a couple who didn't really like her, but there were a couple who did. Will the couple that didn't really care for her discourage me from having her judged at AB shows? Absolutely not! I go to shows mostly to do something with my dogs, learn, and have fun with my friends anyway. If I happen to do a little winning, it's the gravy- but not the potatoes.

Now, I understand that you're trying to finish this boy and are frustrated that he didn't win, but I think taking your frustration out on all AB judges isn't going to help. It didn't help you learn what that particular judge looks for, it didn't help you learn which judges might be more inclined to put your boy up, and it certainly didn't help the sport with poor sportsmanship. Also, it sounds like your boy has some nice wins under Breeder-Judges, so I guess I (me, myself, and I here) would be happy to leave it at that- if it comes down to it (which I doubt it will). Some dogs never finish and are still highly sought after (IF it's your intent to stud him).

I show my dogs both at AB and Specialties and they win at both types of shows.. including large Specialties. Just my 2 cents

Take a look at the websites of the Specialty Judges,
those that you say know what a Lab should be. Their
dogs are different. Some like a high ear set and smaller head, some large head with a lower ear set,
some long bodies with short leg, some square bodies,
some a bit more leg, tail sets everything from high to
low, feathered and wrapped, coats are all over the place. Movement, well that is a topic of it's own.
I show both and have placed well with my dogs at both,
In the past three years with limited showing I finished three of my labs myself. I know several
breeder Judges and I call them my friend. They all
have a different vision of the ideal Labrador. The
dogs they breed look different. I enter a show for the Judges opinion of my dog, if they do not pick my
dog that day I do not have a fit and say the dogs they selected were not deserving. I hope that when I
win those that I beat do not talk badly about my dogs
I do think that beacause of time restraints placed on the Judges that they do not move the dogs enough,
I can set a bad dog up and make it look great, but
move them and you will see their faults. These dogs
are not window trim, they are Sporting dogs and were
bred for a job. They should not move like a Setter,
but they should be balanced and relaxed when moving.
I watch the Lab ring at AB and Specialties and you
can feel the Earth move and hear the breathing two rings over. Read the Standard once a month, go to shows (many) take off the Kennel blinders and bred
what you believe is correct. Opinions are great, everyone has one, and when it comes to dog breeding
they will all be different. Show for the love of the
Fancy and your dogs, please don't get caught up in
the blame game of one Judge being better than another.
It sounds like you know your dog is correct and should
always win, I am sure he will finish, and I am also
sure it will be at an AB show, as that is where he has received his points to this date. Best of luck!

The equation is: 100 Labs - 100 Judges = 100 Different Opinions!

Do some judges "fault judge" using the objective parts of the standard before making decisions regarding the more subjective parts? For example, might an all-breed judge just eliminate those dogs not in working condition who are obviously not within the weight requirements of the standard? If a judge eliminates dogs using objective means, then what is left may just be poor quality or mediocre stuff. Not right but understandable for someone not in the breed. They probably even realize they are putting up something mediocre but feel they can't ignore the objective criteria as outlined in the standard. Hard to accept if something unsound is being put up but all too real I guess. But like I said, understandable.