Could I get some feed back on line breeding. Uncle to niece but some dogs twice. Know I need to know what is back there. Am the breeder of both dogs. What beside checking OFA site ALOT, can I do. Might not do it. But love the line, grandparents very nice. Anyone with some experienced thoughts, welcome. Help me make up my mind one way or the other.

We have found over the years that out breeding worked best for us. I hate to say this but we have not had a health or hip issue including EIC.

In my honest opinion, it is extremely difficult to linebreed, little alone in-breed, the MODERN Labrador Retriever. There is so much more involved than joint issue or eye issues. You would have to have volumes of knowledge on everything in 5 generations including all related offspring from everything behind your dogs to make an informed decision. This practice is successfully done by only a handful of breeders with decades of knowledge and experience with their lines. I would recommend talking to those breeders who are successful. They are few and far between in the world.

It would not be difficult if you owned the five generations you were speaking about. Yes, as a newer breeder, it is more difficult to make line breeding decisions without full knowledge and confidence in what is behind your dogs.

Have you used both dogs before, and if you did, was it an outcross? Do you know what each one produces? I have 6 or 7 generations of my own breeding to look at. I just did a line breeding on my own stuff (for the first time) a couple of years ago. It was a nice breeding, got a couple of show quality dogs and health was good. However, I didn't get the size in bitches that I was hoping for.

Have you talked to the breeder of the line you are doubling on to see what they think?

I've done this exact breeding , and have a plan to do it next year on two different dogs. I have owned 7 generations prior to these dogs. When I first did it , the puppy I kept was OFA excellent , lovely type , temperament was outstanding, she had a wide front , but still placed 4th at a Speciaty with an entry in the class of 44, this was 10 years ago. I would not do it , if you did not have a base knowledge of several generations , and that does not mean just two.

This is really tough. Should you only do this after you have years of experience? I think people are saying, by then you will know what problems lie in your lines. But if you don't do it, how do you find out the problems in your line? Good question, right? I can only speak from experience. I did a line breeding early on after having heard so much about it. What I got was big trouble. One third of the puppies in a very large litter had seizures, starting at 2 years of age. Since then I have been very cautious. How big a gamble are you willing to take? The individuals you are thinking of mating had better be dynamite specimens to make it worth the risk.

No breeding is without it's risks. Even outcrosses can go terribly wrong. If you do not have the history of the dogs that you want to use in this breeding, is it a possibility that you can talk candidly with the breeders who do have first hand knowledge of these lines? Have they linebred on them before?

Knowledge is power but in the end, I am afraid we are still subject to mother nature's whims.

Is there a basic formula or rule of thumb that seems to work?

I think there are a number of articles and books written on this subject. Do a search. Study some pedigrees , you will find out which breeders live by these practices. There are any number of older, seasoned breeders that will take the time to discuss this. But really if you are this inexperienced that you are on this forum looking for info, I would think it best to wait untill you have lived with 5 or 6 generations of the dogs you have before you make this leap.

There are quite a few breeders out there that line breed Arnold lines (Dickendall Arnold) -- I would start there. Since these breedings have been VERY sucessful.

Why not read these books for input:

http://www.amazon.com/Breeding-Your-Show-Howell-Distinction/dp/0764573020/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243367100&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Reaching-Stars-Formerly-Advanced-Labrador/dp/0944875645/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243367175&sr=1-1

An uncle to niece breeding is too close to be properly called a line breeding - most experienced breeders would call it inbreeding. Whatever you call it, though, a breeding that is this close is WAY too complicated an undertaking for all but the most experienced breeder who KNOWS THEIR LINES INSIDE AND OUT! While it's true you will get all of their strengths in spades, it's also true that every skeleton that is lurking back there will come screaming out of the closet. Are you sure that's what you want?

"Whatever you call it, though, a breeding that is this close is WAY too complicated an undertaking for all but the most experienced breeder who KNOWS THEIR LINES INSIDE AND OUT"

Nonsense. Annie Clark always said, breed a bitch to her grandsire and you will know exactly everything you have. Remember though- that goes for the bad as well as the good.
So if you did this breeding, you would know where you stand regarding everything. Be careful what you are starting with though, if it is NOT good enough to start with, you should go find something from a strong line and start fresh from there. Too many people breed this to that looking for the "that" to fix what they don't have. You need to start with something good and make it better. There are too many mediocre Labs out there- everyone looking for the big "fix".
Right now--- now that you have a few years knowledge- right now would be the time to go buy something really nice. Build on that line instead with quality linebreeding.
And yes go read everything you can get your hands on!!

I am not new to all this, have been around for years.
Read Reaching For The Stars over and over. Just needed the input to help me decide to stay with the outcross. It would have been a line breeding. The person saying "whatever you call it" needs to do some more reading herself. I do appreciate everyone's opinion and have decided not to do it. I have 5 generations, all show lines, I do always breed up, have been so lucky, but some of you with the horror storys and good old common sense helped me decide. Thats what we are here for to help each other.

There are no formulas or generalizations in breeding. If you do want to linebreed, it should be on OUTSTANDING individuals in every way.Linebreeding shouldnt be done just for the sake of linebreeding or because a book suggested a formula .

My sister-in-law bred boxers for many years. She read an article by some geneticist that said the best combination is a follows: Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on her dams side. She practiced this for many years and was quite successful.

You need to know what the undesirable recessive traits are in the dogs you are doubling up on. Since you have bred these two dogs yourself you can contact the people you sold puppies to out of the two litters, plus the parents, and grandparents to see if there were any problems. You also want to look at weather the dogs you are doubling on were outstanding producers. If they were great themselves but only produced a nice dog here and there then I would not do it. I recently saw a pedigree for one of this years big winners and they actually have two dogs in the pedigree who are known to produce seizures. Didn't do their homework. There will be lots of bitches bred to him because he is a big winner. Not smart..
Back to your breeding. That is pretty close so be sure what you are doubling up on. They say the best linebreeding is grandfather to grandaughter, or grandmother to grandson. Anyway good luck!!

Brackett's formula: (over-simplified)

"Let the sire of the sire become the
grand sire on the dam's side"

By this formula are you saying that the father's father and the dam's grandsire is the same dog?

Lloyd Brackett's articles on linebreeding (Dog World Magazine, circa 1959) are fascinating - you can read them here: http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

He describes this formula for choosing a stud dog