man who owns a hunt club and was referred to me by a well known breeder friend bought a female 8 week old puppy with full registration, the contract states she is being sold as POTENTIAL show/breeding with full registration.

when he purchased the pup he saw both parents and a few aunts to his pup all range between 21 and 23 inches. He was happy with the group.

This girl has maxed out at 19 1/2 inches at 18 months old and this man wants me to give him a full refund because he cant show her. He has never stepped in the show ring except for one puppy match last year.

she has no health issues and is pretty good at retrieving.
I do not feel I owe him any moeny back and I offered to list her on my site to help place her if he was not happy with her.
This is not enough for him.

Am I wrong???

My Bo has grown significantly in the past 2 months, he is 2 weeks shy 18 months old now and is showing no sign of slowing down yet. I don't believe a dog is truly "maxed out" in growth until 2 years or maybe a little older. I'd tell him to wait at least 6 more months until she is truly full grown, and while you are waiting for that to happen...consult an attorney.

This is the thing, what is he going to do with this dog , THAT HE DOES NOT WANT! How do you want him to handle a dog , He does NOT want. This is why you DO NOT sell show potential puppies, to NOVICE people. Buy your youngster back at the puppy price, and get rid of this fool, and YOU have just learned a valuable lesson.

No, no, no! Show quality can not be guaranteed and was not guaranteed, therefor NO refund of any kind is required, period. Take the dog back and rehome, OR help place dog, but do not give a refund if he keeps it. Rediculous!

Two of our finished girls were no taller that that at 18 months, in fact one was slightly shorter. Both ended up to be right at 21 1/2" at maturity. I would try to explain that she probably will add at least another inch + as she gets older. If it does not seem to satisfy him, for the girls sake, I would take her back, give him a refund, and either keep her yourself or find a home that will love her as she is.
If they just want a refund, no way unless they return her.

I asked if she had been wicket in the ring and disqualified. Of course she has not since she hasn't been in the ring.

What he wants is half purchase price refunded and keep the dog...of course she is on full registration.
so he wants money back, plus keep her.

I make it clear at purchase that I can not guarantee that any dog will be show quality, that the pup may have potential and I am giving him the chance with her.

I offered to list her on my site and help him place her but of course he says "who will pay $$ for a midget dog".
I just don't understand these buyers....I have purchased several potential pups that for one reason or another did not work out.
I call the breeder and offer her back, if they don't want her back then I tell them I will be placing her in a pet home spayed.
Then I move on to the next HOPEFUL...isnt that how it is suppose to work???

UGHHHHHHH

Give back full price. Keep her or sell her for increased price as she is older, trained etc. Or, keep her and show her yourself.

Money back and get dog or no money back. JMO

I am sorry but I really cant get over who these buyers expect you to play the maker.

He has a healthy beautiful dog that has been with his family for almost 2 years. Now because she is on the shorter side he expects you to refund!

What will be next if they dont like the way the hair swirls around the tail or the shape of the eyes should we refund? Heck why not just give them to darn dogs to begin with.

help him place her..... but no refund. you are not a stimulus check.

JMO...I would not refund any money unless he gave the dog back. Or help him place her. I would feel much better getting my baby back home away from this guy. He is not even showing her ... and I agree I have purchased several that did not make the cut for me but never asked for any money back; always offered the dog back or I would place in pet home only.
I have in my full contracts that I do not guarantee the hunting, showing or training ability of any dog. Just for people who do this type thing. A "show potential" is just that a potential not a guarantee.

Full refund of puppy price ,AND YOU GET THE DOG. Or tell him to go jump in a lake.

AMEN to that!! Get the puppy back!

I agree, the ONLY way to recieve a refund is to return the dog. OR...tell him you'll refund him after he shows your the vet receipt for spaying her. Only 2 options.

No, no, no, no, no. Doesn't matter if he spays her. He should not get money back. Get the dog back and refund the purchase price. You can easily sell her again AFTER YOU spay her, if she is going to be a pet.

People are nuts. My son has product he sells. Some guy wrote to him and said he bought a similar product, but my son's looks better. So he wants my son to refund the money he paid for somebody else's product. Then he said he will buy my son's product. People are nuts!!!!!

First GET HER BACK. You don't want one of your pups with someone unhappy with her. Give him half his money back. And everyone is right you can find her a great home and get your money back. He gets nothing until you get the dog back.

Half is not a bad idea. He gets half when he returns her. He get the other half when you sell her.

EXACTLY!!! DON'T SELL TO NOVICES!!!
I learned that the hard way trying to help someone get started!!
The lesson was, it isn't worth it and one bad egg ruined the whole carton!
No refund unless he returns the dog. PERIOD!!
Ahhh, but if it was only as easy as that....
Some people are just not happy no matter WHAT you offer them!!
Next he'll tell you he wants his FULL REFUND back but he "is too attached" to her to give her back!!

dog is not a pup she is now 18 months old.

I usually don't sell dogs of full registration.

but he was referred by a mentor breeder and was not considered a novice, but I guess I was wrong.

To many breeders selling "show potential" to newbies and filling their heads with all this talk that they are going to have a winning dog. Offering the moon and the stars and building them up with all their gaurantees. Then when the pup does not work out the breeder claims it is not there fault and they don't want to honor what they previously offered. Refund the money, the buyer obviously did not get what they paid for.

if the contract states dog was sold as a potential prospect and it was explained clearly at sale then the buyer is taking the same chances we all take with every pup we keep or buy.
he saw the parents and related dogs.

You cant always blame the breeder, this is not a hereditary disease that will take away from quality of life, it is just something the owner does not like...I happen to love the shorter girls.

Asking for a refund because a healthy young girl is a bit short is ignorance and does not deserve reckoning.

Anybody that could part with their trained companion of the last two years (because of her size) doesn't really care about the dog. Take her back! Fast!

Well I guess that is the difference between a "show breeder" and a "pet " mentality.
Show breeders KNOW that dogs don't turn out and they are prepared to rehome/return them if they are not what they had hoped for. Whether it's failing a clearance or being too short, or whatever.
It's all part of it. We can't keep 'em all and we are ready to find wonderful forever homes for those dogs if need be.
If this guy loves his "pet" than he certainly doesn't need a refund!!
If you sell you prospects for the same price as pets, like I do, why in the world would you refund him unless he GIVES THE DOG BACK???

First, she may still reach standard. Second, you do want her back if he doesn't want her. He can still breed her if you don't get her back. You don't want that. But, if he bought her as a potential show puppy, I do think you owe him some sort of refund. If she has a disqualifying fault such as height...there is no way she can be show potential. It's not like she doesn't have a good head, or not a great coat, or not really good movement. That's arguable. Size isn't. I would do it mainly to avoid a lot of hassle. Will he give you back the puppy for a replacement puppy? Maybe you don't want to get into that.... As far as him showing her, I've had a lot of breeders tell me they didn't show their dogs until 18 months-2 yrs. Whatever, I'd just refund to get rid of him and the headache, but I certainly would NOT let him keep her!!!!if I refunded money.

If you are selling a show potential dog to a novice perhaps it would be wise to leave her on a limited registration until you can evaluate her when she is older. You can always change to a full registration when she is older. More protection and control for you and your dog.

100% agree with Breeder!

Some breeders do not have any idea what a show prospect puppy is and should not be selling them to novices just to make a quick buck. These breeders see a novice coming a mile away and the money they have and take advantage of these novices every way they can to just benefit them-self, with no true care for the novice. Its what they do, they hustle the novices till they realize the scam and have enough sense to move on. But I agree poster, don't sell show prospects to ANYONE, keep them for yourself if they are that good next time. Lesson learned, move on.

You can warranty against health problems, but from what you have said OP its a cosmetic issue not a health issue. So no refund IMO!

You sold it as show POTENTIAL. I actually put that in my contract too. Better to spell it out.

I think you owe him nothing. You did nothing wrong, the dog is healthy. Heck, if I wanted my money back on every dog that didn't turn out for me to show, I'd have made a lot of enemies in this "business" and would have been sent "packing"

I think some people think we are "gods" and can wave our wand over dogs and make them this or that. They are living creatures. Random stuff happens. No guarantees in this world.

good reason to read contracts before you sign, this dog was sold with the possibility of becoming a potential show prospect.

define Potential:
possible, as opposed to actual.

If he knew what he was actually doing and was not happy with her size. Then he would place her and move on. Or he should have bought an older proven female that would not bring surprises.

I would offer to rehome the dog for him and he would receive money after she is sold.

I agree, If I let you have a nice puppy with the hopes of show career, you are lucky. If he turns out you are real lucky, just like I would be. If he doesn't you still have a very nice dog. We all take our chances. I think you owe him nothing, but to get the dog back you will end up paying some, maybe half. And don't sign her over. Not even mature enough to make a judgement on size. A few heats seems to mature them the most.

One more thought to add to others. How was she fed? Did you ask? You might want to.

I once sold a puppy who should have made size - but she didn't. She was only about 19 inches tall and very fine boned. Just the opposite to all of her littermates. They were medium tall but had very good bone. When her owners complained that she wasn't big enough, I asked about her diet. They fed her very poor food and not enough - only 2 cups per day and they made their own. DUH!!!!!

And yes, I had sent home a puppy packet with them with lots of info about nutrition and proper feeding.
Well I took her back - refunded their money. Fattened her up, spayed her and placed her into a pet home. And guess who got scratched off my list of ever getting another puppy?

FWIW

First preference - refund him the money and get the bitch back so YOU can decide what her future is.

Second preference - failing that, (especially if the purchase price was the same for all puppies regardless if they were "show potential" or not) give him the 50% refund upon proof of spaying. There's no way I would allow him the option of getting half his money back and keeping her as a brood bitch - not that he would have a clue as to how to breed her...

Would it not be more important reguardless if it was a show potential or a pet, to get your dog back from someome who is not happy with her.Would you want the dog living with someone who is unhappy with what he has.
Do you have something in your agreement that if they cannot care for the animal or something happens that they need to rehome, that you have first rights to the dog.
What is the issue, take the dog back, give him his money back as one person know 10 people and 10 people know 100 people. Reputation can go along way with people who buy your dogs , but they can also tell others.
Customer service- 100%

those of you who think a full refund is the "right" thing to do.....

He does NOT want to give her back, I offered that.

he wants to keep her AND get a refund!
so long story short....he is a jerk looking for money.

what the heck! How is this my bad??????

It really sounds to me that this is not at all about the dog, but about money and he wants some.

He hasn't made any effort to show the bitch in puppy classes, which would indicate that he cared about showing. He doesn't want to give the dog back, that would indicate that he never cared about showing.

The guy needs money and is looking for a way to get some. If you are willing to put some pressure on him, tell him that you will only give him money if he returns the dog. Then only offer some % of the original rate with explanation of your carrying costs to home/rehome, etc.

These economic times will bring out the worst in people, even if they are inherently good.

Do you sell your show prospects for more money? If so I would tell him once the bitch is spayed, you will refund the cost difference between the pet price and show prospect price.

Have you tried calling him and explaining things over the phone, about letting her mature to see if she reaches proper height, etc. Sometimes feelings are projected and misunderstandings occur when communications are all done via email.

If you did sell the pup for more than a "pet" price, hindsight is a wonderfull thing. You can never guarentee a show/breeding quality pup.
I would refund the difference( if you did charge more) after proof of spay and that would be my final answer.

yes I have spoke to him over the phone
when she was 12 months old he called with the same complaint. I explained that he needed to give her more time to mature.

She is now 18 months old and he called again, she has grown an inch since then but still to short. This is when he asked for a refund, he wants half his purchase price back $600, but does not want to give the dog back.

1. Often people that own hunt clubs also breed dogs. It sounds like your client has decided not to show his dog but wants to breed her. I would tell him return her for a full refund or keep her and no refund. Then hold your breath and hope he returns her or if he keeps her that he doesn't breed her irresponsibly thus trashing your kennel name.

I think often new breeders get stars in their eyes and are flattered when someone is willing to buy a "show prospect" from them. The safest thing to do is to sell your puppies on limited registration and keep the show puppies for yourself.

We recently bought a "show potential" pup. I am not a breeder and plan on showing this dog for fun if he turns out, otherwise plan to do rally, obedience etc. I knew exactly what I was getting into and understand that no breeder can tell for sure how the puppy will turn out. That being said show prospect or no show prospect that puppy is worth every red cent we paid for him because of the joy he brings to our lives! I also understand his price tag reflects the cost that goes into breeding a sound healthy labrador, and not the potential that he might show in the ring!! The man's claim is ridiculous IMHO unless you had some contract IN WRITING that guaranteed this dog would grow up to be show quality.

You would think....
But some people are not happy with whatever you do and only want the money.
SOP is to return a show potential wash out to the breeder and get a replacement or a refund.
NOT keep the dog and get a refund if the breeder wants the dog back.
But again, some people are not reasonable no matter what.

I admire the OP's effort to place her show 'prospects' in appropriate settings. We all know this doesn't always turn out the way any of the parties hope, but it is still a worthwhile endeaver. I have introduced the most wonderful and deserving families into my Labrador world and the breed, as well as myself, have greatly benefited from it.

The key is to make sure that expectations are clearly lined out and that limited registration and a wonderful pet are the outcome if the terms aren't realized. Serious newbies will follow through and the others will fall through.

None of us are in a position to keep every great puppy we breed and often times the great puppy we do keep wont work out and another from the same litter will turn out to be much better. There are great people out there that, like ourselves, are willing to take a chance that that one special puppy, who aside from being lovely and lovable, will work out to be that once in a lifetime dog that jump starts a dream.

In these difficult times people are doing all manner of things to keep their heads above water--even if they love the dog.

So what does it mean ~ Show Prospect?

I've sold to many newbies dogs that I feel are finishable, as show prospects.

I clearly state that if the dog is shown to have any obvious DQing factors, half of the sale price will be returned, and I will, of course take the dog back if that's what is desired by the purchaser. However, this is always discussed with the buyer. Questions must be answered such as 'What would you do if you could not show her/him?

You learn a lot about people that way.

I agree you should get the dog back...no matter what...

but I have to say to all of you people saying that you should never sell to a newbie really gets my goat. Perhaps you SHOULD screen your newbie's better.

I'm a newbie...and understand that even if getting the opportunity at a dog that *may* make it in the show ring, nothing is ever guaranteed. As it is, I got a potential, had some ortho issues, fixed them, neutered him and still love him as my beloved companion. I will not place him...I do compete in hunt tests and obedience with him. I have two non-show dogs in my house now, and I'm fine with that.

Eventually I will get a show dog to play in the ring with, and if it works out, great, if not, it will always be loved by my and family.

This guy is a jerk and obviously you didn't do your homework before you sold a dog on full registration. And this type of situation pretty much makes good people like me who are active in clubs and in other areas of the dog world, have to jump through hoops to prove that we will do what we say we want to do with a quality dog.

I am curious, 6702. Do you sell your show prospects for the same price as the pets? How many is many? How many ended up as Am. Champions?

Some of us are not satisfied with forking over a lot of cash for a show prospect that turns out to be a pet. All things considered a show prospect takes a lot more work and money invested into them right from the start, if you begin with them the right way. Not to mention the time and effort that goes into all the training and socialization to get them headed in the right direction. Then after all of this the breeder needs to honor what ever gaurantees they have promised to the buyer. The breeder being experienced knows that the pup might not work out and breeders are willing to take those risks because that is what they do. But don't expect a newbie who believes they are buying something that will be for showing is willing or should even be expected to take those same kind of risks. To many breeders are stringing newbies along and selling every puppy in a litter as show prospect for more money and when the pup does do not work out the breeder just hopes the buyer will go away. It needs to be understood that when a breeder is selling something to a client they need to be able to stand behind what they are promoting or make it clear from the beginning there are no guarantees it will work out for show. Refund at least half of the money or provide a replacement dog, make it right!

Ok I understand about refunding any difference between show and pet price if a show dog doesn't turn out and they want to keep the dog as a pet.
BUT, if you charge the SAME price, say $1200, for a show PROSPECT as you do for a PET....why would give them ANY money back without the return of the dog????
All the OTHER pet buyers paid the $1200, why would this guy now get his for $600?????

And to the person (not buying it) who states that a "show prospect" costs you more right from the start because of all the training and socialization you "put into it"....you sound like a real Einstein....
I hope you never call me for a puppy!!
You are EXACTLY why I don't sell my show pups as show pups. I either keep them or send them to a pet home just so I don't have to worry about idiots like you!!
I especially love this quote in your post "But don't expect a newbie who believes they are buying something that will be for showing is willing or should even be expected to take those same kind of risks"
Are you kidding????????????????????????????????
This isn't like buying a CAR!!!!!!!

Any of us who have bred for a while have run into this problem. I sell show puppies and pet puppies for the same price. I offer a full replacement (another puppy from a future litter) for someone putting all the effort into having a show dog if the dog does not work out. And for my pet people I offer a replacement at half price if something is wrong with their puppy. Both are welcome to keep as a pet the first but I also offer to rehome for them if they want.

This is the best any of us can offer as the unforeseen is always there, not matter how many tests and clearances we run. These are living, breathing, animate beings and as such they are subject to so many different scenarios that purchased inanimate objects are not. I think sometimes new buyers/owners just don't understand that because they haven't survived the hardship and heartache that many of us breeders have. We all have an enormous amount invested in any show prospect we run on and there are no guarantees to protect us from disappointment. We just try again.

I've sold 4, and 2 have gone on to finish, and of the others one was major pointed, and the other had 6 single points, but did just recently finish his CDX at 9 years old.

To be clear, I believe screening would take care of these messes. I am very happy with my newbies and wouldn't trade them for the world!

My show puppies are the same price as my pet puppies, but the search is different for a show puppy, meaning, if someone comes to you looking for an agility prospect, would you refund if the elbows were bad at 6 months? The purpose of the dog is going to be different, and I try to make an educated guess as to whom will be most successful. I assure you the new owners are told just this, that it is a guess. But I would never place any prospect pet or otherwise with someone who would not care for the dog the same whether it was 3" too short or had a severe overbite.

To huh? or should I put to Duh? Some people really need to show some maturity or class when posting on this forum. Or it is just open season when you don't have to post your name. Calling people idiots just because they are expressing their opinions is really a loser mentality. Maybe you should look for a grade school forum where your posts will be better suited.

One solution to this problem, other than careful screening of the buyer is to have a very explicit written contract. I'm a physician that does procedures and in medicine we say you should consent the bejesus out of everything! Expectations, outcomes, complications, alternatives, etc. The more you agree to up front the less problem later. If you have in writing that their is no guarantee for a "show potential" puppy to in fact reach that potential, and the terms if it doesn't (i.e. return the dog if you want your money back) you should be covered and the buyer doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Agree with "put it in writing"!!

I would throw that "who would want a midget dog" comment back in his face. He apparently does, he's not willing to return her to you to get his money back!

well said!

So, 6702, I assume you refunded half the purchase price to the 2 puppies that did not work out. Yes, I am skeptical. Do others beside myself think that 4 does not amount to many?

Considering they were my 2nd pick pup, yes, they turned out well, they could have finished, but the owners found a new love, one obedience, the other therapy. Being I've only bred 5 litters in 17 years unlike most breeders pumping out litter after litter, I'll take the handful I've actually finished and be proud of them. 4 is many in my book, I am not a Tabatha or Beechcroft, not a big time, big name breeder where people are flocking to my dogs, nor do I want them to.

How many have you placed that finished? Why always so judgemental? Always looking to dig around and find faults in others.

I would take this bitch back, that's all I've saidm I agree 110% with Bluesouth.

This is why I would never sell a pup to someone on full registration unless I know them, their kennel, or their reputation already.

How well do you know the "well known breeder" who referred you and how well does he or she know the guy you are having trouble with?

If I were the breeder who referred him to you and I knew the man personally, I would not be happy at all with the way he is acting and would talk to him about it. If I didn't really know the guy well I would take it as a lesson to never refer people you don't really know to others unless you make the other party aware that you have never done business with them.

Of course the ideal situation would be for the man to return the dog to you for $1200, but since he is not open to that there is nothing more to discuss. You stated that you sold this prospect for a normal puppy price so there is no difference for you to reimburse.

I would simply say.
"It is obvious you are not happy with the dog. I will be happy to buy her back for $1200. You can then take that money and purchase a pup you would be happier with. I sold her to you at my pet puppy price, not a show puppy price, so there is no difference to be reimbursed. If you choose to keep her as a pet I hope you give her a good home, but the pet price you paid will not be reimbursed in any way."