This is a continuation of my problem with full bites and now crooked bottom teeth in front.

I was wondering if there are well known stud dogs in all 3 colors who consistantly produce correct bites and full dentition and if so could you please list the boys so I can save them in my stud dog files ?
Thank you very much

This is kind of a wierd request. Since it would take two pedigree's together to create (a puppy)a bite we can't really say that a Stud Dog creates good or bad bites. If so it is almost like we are blaming our Stud Dogs on our Bite issues?

Correct how do you know its not coming from your girls background??

Here is a news flash! IT takes TWO to tango !

There are certain dogs and lines that have produced consistantly poor bites. This is not the place to be fishing for information.

If you are sincere in your research, why don't you contact your mentor or start talking to other breeders. This is what I did when half of my litter ended up with bad bites (previous litter had been fine). I learned alot and found out it was behind my bitch and I had doubled on it unknowingly. You certainly are not going to learn that information hear...especially under the guise of anonymity. You want people to be honest and give you names but you do not want to supply them.

Didn't you all know everything that could possibly go wrong is always the stud dogs fault!!!!

I don't think the original poster is trying to blame the stud dog for the problem but asking for lines that do not have problems with bad bites. The reason it comes across wrong is, I think, that the poster is asking the wrong question, and the people who replied are responding to the question she/he SHOULD be asking. In my experience it is much more common to NOT have a problem with bites than it is to HAVE a problem with bites. So you do need to figure out where the bite problems you are having are coming from and to avoid lines with bite problems, not to find a line without bite problems. And, yes, this forum is not the place you will get that information. Now, missing teeth are more common - is that the problem you are trying to correct? Many stud dogs advertise full dentition, but I would check up on parents and siblings, as well.

It won't make a hill of beans if you use a stud dog that produces good bites if your bitch line is consistantly producing wrong bites. My advise to you is get a new foundation bitch because once you have a problem in your line good luck getting rid of it.
Aloha,
Jackie

Some of you folks crack me up to no end on this forum. Is it any wonder why we go " Anon " when we ask certain quesitons.

For one thing, I have tried going to the breeder who I bought my original foundation bitch from due to things cropping up here and there. She always tells me the same thing, " There are no problems with this and that in my lines " same old same old and I'm getting tired of starting over with new lines which if I did start over due to the bite issues now and then, this would probably make foundation bitch number 16 in 12 years of this hobby.

At some point, you can't throw the baby out of the bath water every time something crops up.

I do know that these teeth and bite issues are in my current lines so I'm not blaming the stud dog, nor do I make a habit of blaming the stud dog for things.

I really was just trying to formulate a list of boys who are older and are known to produce proper bites with full dentition in a good portion of the girl who are bred to them. Nothing sinister about my question and why can't some of you post your wonderful boys who are known producers for good bites ?

Evernone else has no problem with posting brags and everything under the sun about their dogs. All I want is " Positive Information ", not a witch hunt. This can only help our breed, not hurt it.

I would post my name but I know in all reality that there will be some of you out there who will take that information and run with it like you do with many other things you find out or here as rumor. Not all of you but all it takes is a few gossip mongers and then a bunch of dogs in my dog's pedigree will be smeared.

It's like I would love to get a list of Bc or Chocoalte boys whose lines are known not to produce allergies. What's wrong with spreading such good news to breeders who are trying to improve their chocolate lines.

When you go to all these specialites or all breed shows, you can see the stud dog's get and how they are producing but what are we to do, go pry open every stud dog's mouth and their get to see how their dentition and bites are ? I'm sure that I wouldn't be able to tell if that stud moving around nicely in the ring has bad allergies.

Don't you guys see the dilema with some of these issues ? I have learned along time ago that one can't always trust a stud dog owner with 100 % certainty when they tell you about the genetics behind their boys or they get on the defensive about the questions I ask them.

I am more than open about my bitch's issues when I talk to the stud dog owners so why can't that be returned ?

WHY? Because too many "breeders" go on forums such as this , and bad mouth stud dogs, and then that dogs career is over. That's why.
A wise old breeder once told me that it takes three generations to get rid of a bad bites, and that is if you are the luckiest person in the world!

When I said " I am more than open about my bitch's issues when I talk to the stud dog owners so why can't that be returned ? "

I didn't mean to get on a forum and unleash the good back and ugly about stud dogs. I meant when I call up a stud dog owner to ask about his pedigree and any other questions I might need to know.

My goal here on the forum today was to hopefully get some names of boys who are known to produce proper bites and full dention without having to call or every stud dog owner in the United States.

I never asked for anything negative to ruin a stud dog's career. If anything, this sort of shared information can help his stud career.

It just struck me odd by what you said about why stud dog owners don't like to share about the genetics to bitch owners and the only thing you are worried about is your boy's stud career ? This is exactly the type of mentality that is causing some of the health problems in our breeds or taking us way too many generations to get rid of the problem.

I don't know much about missing teeth, but would think a list of what worked with our females who do not have bite or missing teeth issues would not mean much to you in the long run. If I had many problems I would still find a new line. There are plenty out there with all their teeth. What little I do know of it, it does seem to be passed on easily and may be more of a challenge than say small heads, bad fronts and rears. And these are difficult in one generation to improve. Wish we could make it simple, its not.

In reading back over your later comments about chocolates and allergys. I have used many chocolate and Bc boys and have never had a problem. Maybe you do need to start over with some of your lines. Just not a fact.

Did I say I had allergies in my lines ? NO I don't have allergies in my lines but I would like to avoid it in the future. Nor do I have a big problem with bites and missing teeth. It is there but not a chronic problem. My goal is to improve on the faults not keep changing lines every other year.

Then why is it that I had been trying improve on straight fronts for 2 generations and then on my last litter I used a stud dog whose lines are known for producing awesome fronts and every single puppy in that 8 puppy litter had wonderful, much improved fronts ? Improving on faults can be done, we just need to know which dogs are prepotent for producing various qualities.

I don't see how teeth and bites are any different. Genetics is genetics and if there is a dog prepotent for producing his own qualities then he will do so evern if taken to a field bitch. This I have seen happen in my own original lines years ago, who happened to be field trial pedigree.

I think somebody partially answered your question about dogs that produce good bites by telling you to find out where in your pedigree bad bites might be coming from and doing your best not to double up on that. That having been said; I also hear you when you say that stud dog owners are not always willing to talk about the bad things their boys might be contributing to the gene pool. I think this is an area where we can all improve. Whether we like it or not-there are problems in this breed and the only way to breed away from them is to share information and do what we can breed the soundest animals possible. Your bite issue is certainly not the worst thing you could be dealing with and I applaud your efforts to bring your questions to a public forum and try to improve your breeding practices. But somebody else posted, and it is true, that we can not list names and point fingers here and dogs who have and produce good bites are probably too numerous to list. The best we can do is research in as positive a manner possible what we have and encourage everyone we deal with to be as open and honest about the good and not so good traits our individual lines can bring to the table.

I wish you the best of luck with you dogs. You obviously spend a great deal of time and effort trying to do what is best and that is what we all need to do to improve the breed.

Unless, the owner of the puppy IS the stud dog owner, then of course all blame reverts back to the bitch!!
Recently ran into this with a "disaster litter" which of course, was totally my girls fault and the boy had nothing whatsoever to do with all the ortho problems found in the pups (including the one the stud owner took).
Funny how we can distort things in our minds to make ourselves feel better at night...

Norman the Nameless

Didn't you all know everything that could possibly go wrong is always the stud dogs fault!!!!

I felt a bit akward reading the initial posting - more because it seemed like a backwards way of looking for a stud dog. Maybe this will sound very unrealistic to you but wouldn't you want to find a dog you like that is from a line you like and then research, research, research to find out as much as you can, good and bad (because let's face it - we all have everything. It's not a question of what is in a line, it's a question of where is it in the line. Many recessive traits can lurk along under the surface for many generations). There are also several elements to the bite that are controlled by multiple genes. just another $.02

It does take two to tango... Your request makes it sound like , whatever stud dog(s)you used/are using, are being blamed. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way...
It could just be that your girl/her lineage didn't mesh well 'in that dept.', w/ said stud(s). You could also ask other breeder's who have also used said dog(s) to see if it happened to them as well.

I have bred into lines where, I was told, "gotta watch out for bad bites/parrot mouths, etc." Well, while other breeders w/ their bitches to certain stud dog(s)indeed got parrot mouths, I didn't. And have even tripled on said dog(s) before and still received good bites/full dentition. These particular popular sires crossed well w/ my girl(s) in that area but not so good w/ other breeder's girls.

Definitely takes 2 to tango....

To the op:

I wish I could share my suggestions with you. I know of a group of studs who have been widely used and consistently produce excellent dentition. How can I share this info with you without folks thinking that I am the owners of these dogs? So frustrating!

I realize now how delicate of a situation this is asking breeders to share their good experiences using the boys who produce the good bites and dentitions. It's a damn if you do and damn if you don't situation.

Oh well, I'll just do what I have always done and hope I stumble upon the magic stud dog to help me do better on the teeth and bites. I know there will always be a pup here and there just because of past history in my lines so I'm not fooling myself but would love to find that boy who could help my next generation of kids.

Think what everyone is trying to tell you, is we could tell you the stud dogs, yellow, black and chocolate that we have bred to in the last 25 years that we got all teeth and no over or under bites, BUT it would be our pedigrees and not really mean a thing. If we had a e-mail I would be glad to share what meshed with my pedigrees.

Set yourself up and non-descript email account if you want to remain anon at gmail or yahoo and share it with us. I bet you will get lots of responses...

ok, here is my email account I set up.. fire away with all your boys who produce those full dentitions and correct bites !!