Looking for some thoughts on this subject and our personal story.

Had a lovely bitch from overseas. Well known pedigree and breeder.

Bred her three times in 2 1/2 year period after her show career was over. She was then spayed and went to live with a family.

We come to find out over time that one puppy (so far) in each of the three litters (two different sires, not similar lines) is having seizures. Ironically, all boys.

Would you discontinue this line completely from your breeding program if you had kept a puppy or two from these litters to run on?

We have never dealt with epilepsy before and it's such a hush, hush subject among breeders.
We just don't feel comfortable asking any other way but under anonymity. I guess no matter what decisions are made, we feel like somehow, someone will turn it into something it's not and try to crucify us. Which at this time, I do not think we could endure.
We are heart broken enough.

You hold the key to making sure we need never produce seizing dogs again. I urge you to obtain blood samples for epilepsy research. If you put "epilepsy research" in the search box at the top of the forum page, you can find threads with details on how to contribute. Look for the entry for April 18, 2009.

It appears that epilepsy is inherited as a simple recessive. However, there are multiple forms of epilepsy and they present differently.

You can call or email me and I will be happy to discuss the problem. Please know that I ABSOLUTELY do not share ANY information with any other person. This research means too much to me to jeopardize it with talk.

Yes, do it! Send in samples from the dam and the offspring, including those who seize and who don't. This is a real opportunity for Labs, and for you--you may soon have a test for this, and be able to breed these Labs you kept without fear of producing seizing Labs if you help. We now know how to prevent PRA, CNM, EIC, and less heartbreaking things that are more cosmetic, such as long haired puppies, or No Black Pigment yellows. Epilepsy has been in dogs, and the breed, for eons. If it is indeed a simple recessive, using the otherwise good lines that carry it could still be possible, and as easy as breeding to get only blacks from a BY girl or yellows from a yellow girl. We won't need to throw out whole breeding programs, only to back into epilepsy in another line, generations from the last known affected Lab. I believe that some of the greatest dogs in the world carried epilepsy, and that is why it still shows up. That and folks who don't acknowledge that it exists genetically in their long lines, but blame it on totally environmental factors. Yes, all have a seizure threshold, but we want to stay away from producing dogs with such low seizure thresholds that they are easily pushed over the edge into seizures. Seizures can often be managed easily in the home, but one can never feel safe about swimming the dog in a big body of water again. Please help the breed about which you obviously care so much that you asked. We thank you!.

I am so sorry to hear that your dog has produced this dreaded disease, when I first got into labs almost 30 years ago I had a line that was also producing epilespy, I wish I had a chance to send blood into the research that Joan McInnis is talking about to eradicate this horrid disease but sadly I no longer have access to those lines to do so. Do yourself and the whole labrador community a huge favor and send those blood samples in! BTW the bloodlines that I had at that time were also from overseas from very well know kennels and breeders there.
Aloha,
Jackie

Speaking from bitter experience please send samples in for the database and please remove that line from your breeding program. That way you don't inflict further suffering on future generations of dogs and their unsuspecting owners. Epilepsy in dogs can be devastating if the dog is a severe fitter. It is truly horrible to watch and even more horrible for the afflicted. The people that dismiss epilepsy as NO BIG DEAL have obviously never sat with a dog as it fits uncontrollably for hours on end (status epilepticus). Some dogs never respond to any of the anti-convulsant treatments and just get worse and worse until euthanasia becomes the only kind option. Been there, done that, never want to go there again.

Isn't it true that we do not know the mode of inheritance yet?
So telling someone to place a bitch (and all it's offspring) that produced seizures out of 2 different stud dogs may be jumping the gun?
Do we really know?
Is this more common that we think?
Would we be seriously reducing the gene pool if everyone followed this advice?
This is such an interesting subject.

I've owned a specials-quality seizing bitch. (was never bred.) Don't breed until the test is here, but I know you won't. If there is a good test, talk to folks, and breed cautiously--if and only if the test is here soon and is that good. Telling you to get rid of the whole breeding program makes no sense if folks aren't going to talk about the possible pitfalls in other programs when there is a possible test on the way. Of course, we don't know how old these girls are, if they are girls, or if a boy was kept. A boy could be bred late in life, or make pupsicles.

As for wanting to import, sometimes it is better the devil that you know. Show results are not the be all and end all.

I agree. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If you have a super bitch, do what the old timers did. Before we had tests for all these things, breeders would use the really old, proven studs. If there is one out there that you like that is up there in years, talk to the stud owner. Tell them you are concerned about seizures back in your pedigree and ask questions. How many litters has he sired? What sort of problems has he produced? If he is old and well used, there are sure to be some. If you find someone you feel you can trust, you might want to keep the line going.

Some of the "really old, proven studs" are the dogs that are seen repeatedly in the pedigrees of Labs with epilepsy & seizures. Be very careful, not everyone is honest and please send blood in to the research program. Joan is the person to speak to about the blood testing. Your help is needed so we can wipe this disease out of the breed.

Also, realize that epilepsy can skip many generations. Many have started over again due to this terrible disease.

Not all seizures are due to Epilepsy. We had a girl who seized for many years. She had 2 litters and none of those pups were affected. Strange...
We spayed her because of the seizures. It was difficult to endure the seizures... Her food was changed to a natural food with no preservatives, and lo and behold! She has been seizure free for 3+ years!

The responses to this totally amaze me! How can you say keep breeding the lines? Two different studs, sorry an issue! To me it is like saying well the sire and the dam have good hips and elbows just breed the bitch with one bad hip, does that seem ok? Maybe breed a optigen B to a C because the lines on the B side haven't had it show it self yet. Either you people are really concerned and want to try to improve the breed or your not, it can't be both ways just because no test yet. Poison is poison!

JMO!

If you want to do the right thing do not breed this dog again She has produced seizing dogs using two different sires. There are so many Labs you are not going to endanger the gene pool by eliminating this line. You will do more harm to continue to use this line. Why take this risk?

You are to be commended for coming forward and asking for guidance. This new DNA screening tool that hopefully will be available soon, is going to be yet another super advancement in our breed. Those that have it/dealt with it, will not have to throw out their dogs/bitches/breeding program. They will be able to go forward. As will you, w/ caution. You may find what you kept is clear of the gene..or at the worse(hopefully not affected) a carrier and you can still proceed w/ caution by knowing the stud(s) you choose are clear.

Sad thing about seizuring is the fact that so many bury their heads about it. It's no big deal to them. They still stand dogs at stud that have produced seizing pups. It just amazes me. Even after you talk to them about it.. Oh , no way they are going to utilize the screening tool, then they lose stud money... sucks and is so sad...And they care about the breed??

Then there's the people who have had bitches that have seized and their offspring is standing at stud or will be... Gambling is so wrong. We need to care more about the breed as a whole, not to mention the babies we produce into the world. They didn't ask for it and they don't deserve it.

All three of her litters were 7+ puppies and only three (one from each litter) seem to be seizure affected dogs, that we know of. Of course that's so far. To me, that is a lot. Hopefully that will be all there ever are but who knows.
The bitch herself is older now and retired. She has never had a seizure.
Although I would never think of breeding a seizuring dog (of course), I am torn on what to do with the seizure free offspring of this bitch that I have. A genetic marker test would be a great tool. But what if it's not available during the breeding life of my offspring from this bitch?
Then what? Do I hold out and maybe I am never able to breed the offspring because there is no test? Do I cull the line all together and then find out the test is perfected in a years time and I could have still bred my offspring?
Do I breed the offspring to an older, well proven line before we have a test and hope that I don't produce seizures in the next generation?
I'm really torn about this.
I hate to think of giving up what I thought I had to work with and having to start all over.
The thought is daunting.
But in the end, I will do what my heart can live with.
Right now it is breaking for those affected dogs I unknowingly brought into this world.

You did not say if any diagnostic work was done on the seizing dogs. With so many conditions that can manifest with a seizure as a symptom, it would be prudent to find out.

When dogs have seizures, it is human nature to wish it was something other than epilepsy. Puppies seizing from 3 different litters, raised in 3 different homes would strongly indicate that it is epilepsy.

It could also strongly indicate hepatoportal shunt, liver disease, or a number of other metabolic disorders including pancreatic and thyroid involvement. Many of these are definitely heritable and do run in families. Congenital malformations of the CNS are also significant causes of seizures.

Totally agree w/ it could be other problems indeed... Anyone owning a seizing dog should seek the advice/help of a board certified canine neurologist to properly diagnose. However, regardless, your bitch has consistently produced seizing pups. Fortunately, mother nature doesn't hit every pup w/ a genetic problem.

I feel you should not breed the offspring of your bitch until you know for sure they aren't carrying the gene(s) for IE. Your bitch is obviously clear of being affected herself but she could've easily passed on the gene for carrying it(since she is obviously a carrier) in the clear offspring. Combined w/ a sire(s) that also carry, you'll yet again be dealing with it.

Hopefully the DNA will be out in time for you to be able to make an educated decision on breeding your girl's offspring.

My heart goes out to you. None of us ever want to produce anything that is of an issue but unfortunately, mother nature can be cruel. The use of what DNA screening tools we have available as well as hopefully these new ones they are working on(TVD/IE) will help us all to make educated decisions for the love of the breed as a whole.

Please-you already sound like you are as upset as the owners so we know you have a good heart. Having to give up your line is very sad but what is worse is watching a child look on in horror and fear as their pet is seizing. No line is worth that trade off...I've been there, I've given up "that line" and started fresh. I hope for the best but know in my heart I did the right thing-I think you already knew the answer to your post or you wouldn't have bothered to ask..Follow your heart.

Well put *don't breed*. Even if this is not idiopathic epilepsy and it is a kidney disorder, a low thyroid level, ANYTHING medical, please don't breed the same bitch or her off-spring. There is a reason for the seizures that must be genetic for it to happen the way it did to you.

What has happened to you sucks but alot of breeders have been through seizures and-or epilepsy. More than we can imagine, it's more prevalent than some lead us to believe. I'm surprised the subject went this far finally & glad it did. Alot of breeders don't want to discuss seizures if they've had them or not.

Send in the blood from all 3 litters if you can and move on with a new line. No, it's not going to be easy to start over but you'll feel good about yourself.

I think you would be surprised how many have been in your boots.

There are dishonest breeders who allow the seizures or epilepsy to continue in their lines with not a thought about it. They hurt us with a bitch to be bred if they have a stud-dog. They hurt the buyers, pet or show, if they have a brood-bitch. Most of all they hurt themselves, their reputations and buyers with their pets that have to experience a seizing pet. Then there are honest breeders who discontinue their line for the right reasons, they don't want to produce it again. We should praise & respect those that have.

Seizures or epilepsy is not necessarily "it takes two." It may be dominant, with incomplete penetrance and take one in the grand scheme. We don't know enough yet but if the research is completed we might know more in the not too distant future.

Only you can make this difficult life decision but you have to live with the outcome either way.

All I can say is I sure would not breed any of the dogs related. Not a daughter or son. Not like you just had one show up. Three would be enough for me. That seems to be so sad for the dog and family. Sure you can continue with another line and feel good about it. Sorry, know it has upset you alot. Hang in there, we do understand. We have all had something show up or will.

Some dogs seize due to gluten intolerance. Like Ciliac disease in humans.

The gluten builds up in the body/brain and the seizure is the body's way of ridding itself of the gluten.

Removing gluten from the diet can stop the seizures.

There is info on this here:

www.dogtorj.com

I agree with you on that, not all seizures are epilepsy, there are lots of other reasons the dog could be having seizures, tyroid, liver, kidney, brain tumor......

I have followed 3 dogs I produced that have/had seizures. All three had fewer and fewer seizures as they grew older.

Unless there is a worsening condition which is the direct cause of the seizures, it is fairly typical that the frequency and intensity of the seizures lessen as the epileptic dog gets to an older age.