Do you think that having 3 litters in less than 9 months is too many?

For me, I would jump out the window (think big sky scraper).

For someone else, with the time and proper facility, it might be fine.

Although a litter every three months (or 4 per year) each and every year, is certainly not a hobby breeder.

Oh here we go again!!
Get a hobby and MYOB, sheesh!!

If someone feels they have the stamina and can do justice to the puppies, making sure they have the socialization and attention they deserve, then who am I to judge?

Me? No way, but it doesn't mean someone else couldn't manage.

You can say THAT again!!
My last "litter" of ONE, cost me $4000 to create!
The pup is a keeper too! LOL

And......even if I do get a litter of 8, I usually run on 2, so thats 6 too place for $1200. So say $7200 to work with.
Now I've already paid a stud fee, -$1000, progesterone testing -$500, shipping -$200.
We're down to $5500. Cost of keeping a bitch in whelp (more food) and a litter of 8 pups for 8 weeks, say -$1000 including food, cleaning supplies, shavings, etc.
Vet health exam and shots, -$400.
We're down to a whopping $4100.
Now count all the clearances, cost of raising the bitch, showing expenses (if you're not showing, you shouldn't be breeding).
Ooooh, that's a LOT of money I've made considering the average cost to finish a champion is $5000-$10,000!
yeah, this is one heck of money scheme!
HA!

>>>(if you're not showing, you shouldn't be breeding).
Ooooh, that's a LOT of money I've made considering the average cost to finish a champion is $5000-$10,000!>>>

Are you saying unless you are involved in the "politics" of AKC showing you shouldn't breed? Are you saying unless you can afford to hire a handler to finish your dog you shouldn't breed? Are you saying it takes an AKC judge to determine whether you have a dog worthy enough to be bred? It's people like you who have gotten this hobby so far off track it's doubtful it will ever be what it should be.

I would say get a life or Try getting quick books, I held off for the longest time was afraid to see what I spend!

Your figures are way off, 3 litters this year average litter is 5 puppies in which I kept 4, yielded 16,800.00, my expenses are 20,000.00 so far. 10,000.00 are in vet bills alone. 2,000.00 for a c-section, 2,000.00 for an older girl that had a tumor. 3,500.00 for a CCL repair this year,1500.00 fix fee for whole kennel to be lyme & heartwormed tested every year, rest was shots, health cert.,prelim screening, eye checks, progesterone. Between frontline and food so far this year, I have spent 6,000.00.

Rest was show entry fees, travel expenses, dog supplies, kennel supplies, stud fees.

Yes, we make a killing. Oh Ya and in the past 2 years prior I sold a grand total of 8 puppies!

Thank God for my part-time job.

To the OP,

I think if you have to ask than for you it must seem like too many. Please do remember that every situation and person is different. There are, without a doubt, people out there who should not even have one litter a year. If the breeder bothers you with what they do simply go elsewhere. It is simple.

Would like to add that I'll bet you dollars to donuts that there are a lot of dogs out there that are in a lot of our pedigree's that would not exist if some people did not have 3 plus litters a year. Please don't be so quick to judge nor to run to others to determine your answer.

And don't forget to deduct $2000 for a c section if one is needed. Now you're down to $2100!!!!
Barely enough for one month of a paying a handler!

brdr

And......even if I do get a litter of 8, I usually run on 2, so thats 6 too place for $1200. So say $7200 to work with.
Now I've already paid a stud fee, -$1000, progesterone testing -$500, shipping -$200.
We're down to $5500. Cost of keeping a bitch in whelp (more food) and a litter of 8 pups for 8 weeks, say -$1000 including food, cleaning supplies, shavings, etc.
Vet health exam and shots, -$400.
We're down to a whopping $4100.
Now count all the clearances, cost of raising the bitch, showing expenses (if you're not showing, you shouldn't be breeding).
Ooooh, that's a LOT of money I've made considering the average cost to finish a champion is $5000-$10,000!
yeah, this is one heck of money scheme!
HA!

I don't recall anyone mentioning AKC, handlers, judges or politics. Did you read something other than what you quoted?
You are very paranoid sounding?
You sound like a defensive BYB who is trying to justify your litters by claiming you don't show because of politics. Trust me, we've all heard that one before. It's the oldest excuse in the book and it doesn't fool us!
I think what was implied is that most of us show our dogs, and the reason we breed is for our next generation of show dogs. If you don't show, what is your purpose in breeding? If you tell me to produce great family pets I will know why you don't understand the concept of showing.

People need to go back in history, look at the kennels that made Labradors what they are today, those that had a PROFOUND influence in the breed yesterday AND continue to influence the dogs of today both abroad and in the USA. Do you really think these kennels and breeders with their breeding programs only had 1-3 litters a year?

Two points:
To $$$$$ who said "There are several breeders out there who are making this kind of profit", I don't know where you got your understanding of "profit", but profit is - let's keep it stupid simple and put Quicken definitions to it - "Inflows" minus "Outflows". As several other posters have said, there are significant "outflows" and you apparently have an agenda that makes it necessary to ignore that in order to feel validated.

Next, "Nameless" hit the nail on the head. When I first read the OP's first post, I suspected Troll. I still do, based on what has happened here. That's all I have time for - I need to go plan my next litter and figure out how the Aitch I'm going to pay for it.

Well, let's see. A few years ago I got a no fee checking account and an associated credit card just for the dogs. In May the bank closed the checking account for insufficient activity. The credit card currently has an outstanding balance of over $14,000. I have absolutely no doubt all the self appointed moralists and judges would have a snit fit if I said I planned to breed more than one or maybe two litters this year. After all, all I am interested in is the almighty dollar. Right????

Dog Broke wrote: I need to go plan my next litter and figure out how the Aitch I'm going to pay for it.

Better go plan your next litter so you can make all of that money.

I don't consider 3 litters to many in a year. It is more the point do you have the time and money to properly care for the mother, litter and buyers.

I have a American bulldog breeder near me that has 3-5 litters at a time on the ground, over 30 bitches. Very sad and bothers me very badly.

What about breeders who have no other income except for breeding dogs? Are you all saying that you are in the hole and continue breeding dogs and keep on going deeper into the hole? How does not that make sense? No matter how much you love the breed you can't say that you are breeding one or two litters a year losing your shirt in doing so and have no money left over for anything else. How is that for a lesson in Quick books.
Oh pleezzzzzz.....

Excuse me but some people who breed and don't have an outside job have HUSBANDS who support them and their hobby!!
So don't classify everyone in one group because you may not have the whole story!

With all these judges on this thread we could form the Supreme Court!!!!

Can anyone smell a TROLL?????
Amazing how this topic just keeps popping up on a regular basis and how each time someone will get hooked. The OP is probably posting under several names on this thread alone!!!!!!!!

The cost of owning a dog should no be calculated when determining how much it costs to breed a litter. If we are going to own dogs, then it is a given we have to feed them, take care of their health, and provide them with appropriate housing. That has nothing to do with breeding a litter and should be a given for anyone who owns an animal. Otherwise, everyone who owns a pet would want to breed to cover their costs. We certainly expect our puppy buyers to cover these costs without breeding litters or collecting stud fees to cover costs. We as breeders need to lead by example.

So you are under the impression that it costs the same to keep a breeding animal as it does a pet??

People, activists are trying to take us down state by state. They are now targeting show breeders, by saying it's not about showing or the breed, that it instead is about money-making to say we are no better then puppy mills! Isn't it a little obvious that through posts like this they are stirring the pot and trying to use people's words against them! Wake up and pass by these sort of posts!

And to the activist extremists who say we are just being paranoid. You wish! You would like for all of us to bury our heads in the sand while you attempt to chip away at our rights! Nice try, but we have seen this ploy and that line way too many times! Go elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!!

my my, someone needs their prozac

Animal extremist Troll! Why don't you go elsewhere!

It’s expensive to breed just one litter, my girls are 3 years old and I still have not breed them as I want to make sure that any puppies go to good homes and didn’t want to breed in the current economy…but with that being said…. I broke down the expenses so I would know what I would be approx. spending and it is just an estimate as I do not know how many times you have to have progesterone testing….
This does not include costs for having my girls EIC, CNM’d, Hips & Elbows, x-ray’d, OFA costs, Optigen tested (actually had the Optigen test done 2x by Optigen) I’m sure I’ve had more testing - This does not include reg vet care, any small emerg vet bills, food, etc - NO I don’t think you’d make any money having a litter - Mind you these costs are approximate as I want to do it correctly ….
Costs as of 06/15/2009
Sea Costs
Stud fee $1,000
Their Veterinary costs for shipping
$350.00
Plus Fed Ex charges
$125.00
Approximate costs for Std Fee & Vet fees
$1,350.00
Cost for storage at Clinic
$90.00

Progesterone Costs:
5-7 days after 1st sign of heat - 1st Visit
$108.85
Ea visit there after
$63.30
Depends on when they get the correct results

Maybe every other day or every 2 days
$189.00 (cost for 3 tests)

Insemination of Frozen sea:

Surgical (anesthsia incl
$385.54)

26-28 days from ovulation for Ultrasound
$97.95

1 week before due date Xray for count
$97.95
Approximate costs for Transcervical
$581.44
(This cost only includes 1 Progesterone tx)
(It could actually cost an extra $200 for Progesterone tx)

Approximate costs for Insemination & Stud fee
$2,320.19
$960.00 EIC/CNM testing on puppies for approx 8 puppies
Total $3280.19
$900 shots & deworming (approx
Total $4180.19

Cost per puppy $348.35 that is if you have 8 puppies, but if you have 1 puppy then it's $4,180.19 approximately

That's right, my singleton and only litter this year, did cost $4000, as I said before.
Now since I am not selling this puppy, I guess you could say that $4000 should roll over to my next litter as an expense.
So if I "made" the $4100 as stated above (that's IF I have 8 pups to sell and IF my girl whelps natually), then deducted that $4000. Guess I have a profit of a whopping $100!!!
Boy, I'm makin' a killing!!

This is all just an example of how things usually work.
Will there be litters you will "profit" from? Sure. But take into account all those you do not and it's sure not the money making scheme some people think it is!

>>>I don't recall anyone mentioning AKC, handlers, judges or politics. Did you read something other than what you quoted? You sound like a defensive BYB who is trying to justify your litters by claiming you don't show because of politics. Trust me, we've all heard that one before. It's the oldest excuse in the book and it doesn't fool us!>>>


Hey breeder - Where did I post that I have not shown and where did you get the idea that I have no idea what I'm talking about regarding AKC politics? You're quick to point out that I may have misread something, and that "all of us" aren't fooled by "the oldest excuse in the book" Are you for real? Anyone who has been to an AKC event is no stranger to handlers, judges and politics.

Yes, these are only approximate costs, what if you have a singleton and have to then add $2K+ for a C-section if it's necessary
Also, what if you go thru the process of an AI and you have no puppies.... Then you've lost that money....At some point I'm sure'll you'll break even but it's not likely if you do it the right way... OFA's, Optigen, etc.... If you just breed dogs to breed without clearances, then I'm sure that you'll make some $$$ that's called BY Breeding
It takes a lot of love and a lot of personal hard work (how do you charge that) to breed properly...
This is not for the faint of heart... this may sound silling but it's just like winemaking.... takes years to get to that place! JMHO ... Not everyone will feel this way....

just spent 1200 stud fee, 380 to ship frozen semen. 1000 to get frozen implant 350 progesterone 100 sonogram 165 for 2 xray views 1500 c-section 150 puppy vet check, shots, exams, microchipping for 8 pups, food to raise pups, 2000
Gee 6695- that doesn't include what I spent getting clearances- add another 2k. Showing to finish her? 7500
grand total with no problems 16195. It would be nice if I could claim this on my taxes!

I love all these figures and breakdowns, although it sickens me to realize how much I spend to produce one litter.

But setting everything aside and I do mean EVERYTHING!

If the litters are from healthy cleared parents, they're healthy, well socialized and loved . . . where's the problem?

Personally I believe -- if responsible, reputable breeders bred more puppies -- then maybe we could put the puppy millers out of business!

I am currently having 3 litters in less than 9 months and am not appologetic about it. I have not bred for about a year and a half, and I won't breed for awhile again. Two girls are getting old and I want keepers from them. We as a family are a lot less busy than we were or will be for awhile. I am a little tired of showing for now, etc. My children/teens are all home now and love to socialize pups. Relatives who usually visit in the summer are not coming over. I had a waiting list for those I am not keeping, etc. There is so much that goes into the breeding and raising decision, you cannot judge from the outside.

I do think it's wonderful that you are going to bred as I know it gets hard when the girls get older! I wish I had more time myself. My response was not to judge but to make sure that a previous post knew that I for one would not make any $$ on a litter larger or small as clearnances and breeding is nothing cost money. I personally worry about the economy and want to make sure that they go to good homes. When I breed in January this will be my first litter and the girls will be about 3 yo then.

I breed one and at the most two litters a year. Some years because of the girls age no pups. The bunch of show breeders I know all breed like this and always to keep puppys from the litter. We breed for ourselves. I do think those who always breed more litters are doing it for the money. Some seem to have alot to show for their puppy business. And we all see right through the excuses. And boy some are a racket. Unreal. Great web pages and deals and brags. So funny.