Has anyone used this hormone? (stimulates pituitary hormone assoc. with ovulation and should produce more ripe eggs)

If so what else did you use along with it to help produce a larger litter. At what point did you give it (at LH?) and how many times?

Was the breeding successful and how many in the litter.

Any idea of the cost?

Any info is appreciated.

I think these type of drugs are associated with cancer in humans.

You are the 1st breeder I've heard of that is interested in the same idea that occurred to me but I decided against. You are talking about a very expensive proposition not without risk. It is also used for stud-dogs but that doesn't sound like what you're considering it for.

Unless I had a very special bitch I desperately wanted pups from, I wouldn't consider it. A GnRH agonist(sometimes along with other medications) is an expensive, injected protocal that is used for various hormonal problems, sometimes the unknown. It can be used for induction of estrus that hasn't occurred or is late, inducing proestrus and usually injected for 9-15 days. It does not always work as you've probably been told. This is usually done at a Veterinary Hospital with an exceptional repro-program or with top-notch repro-specialists that know what they're doing working with these medications. It is not without risks to the bitch at the time of adminstration or in later years.

If you have a special, possible or finished champion bitch that you want pups from, you may consider it. You need to learn *all* about it before proceeding. If you can afford the cost of this expensive procedure, it could enhance her chances of getting pregnant by 30% to 80% but an undertaking where no guaranty is included. Her health could be at risk during or later. There are not enough studies yet.

I had looked into this procedure in-depth and decided against it with my Multiple BISS bitch. She did finally get pregnant using a surgical implant after 3 misses. She produced a litter with 4 of 5 surviving pups and I ran on the entire litter. That was the key for us. She never had another litter but I did get what I was looking for from that 1 litter. I really think, had I not ran on the whole litter, I wouldn't have the boy I wound up keeping. He was the only boy in the litter. The 3 girls were nice but he was the definitively best and we realized it as he matured. All the girls went on to show homes, co-owned as I saw he was the very best of the pups at 10.5 months.

The 1st girl finished her Am. & Can. Ch. later than he did, the rest are pointed and moving closer to finishing. My boy finished his Am. & Can. Ch. with lots of help from a superb, professional handler. This was the same handler used for the co-owned girl. I don't think I could have done it on my own although I had handling experience. The handler chose the shows knowing what type of dog the judges liked putting much thought into it. Some shows were All-Breed, some were Specialties.

I hope you're prepared to spend mucho dinero if you go ahead with this, it's expensive. I spent alot doing a surgical ai, running on the whole litter for close to a year and paying a handler for quite a while. I normally don't do things like this, my bitch was so special to me and I felt she could have a great litter. Running on even a small litter for time is not cheap. Yes, I co-own and will receive a pup back if the girls have litters. I did give each co-owner a break in price b/c I was asking for a pup back. It was my 1-st co-owns and how I decided to handle it. Combining all the facts, it was a very expensive proposition.

Cornell had the program I investigated then and who I spoke to before trying the surgical ai there.

Have you tried a surgical implant or does your bitch need her first cycle began with the help of a GnRH agonist?

Get yourself educated on the different ways of doing these procedures, the *risks* and the chances of getting what you want. Then weight them. Be sure your checkbook is full, again, this is not inexpensive to do and it has some unknowns. I would also consider running on several pups from any possible litter to be sure you wind up with the very best you might produce.

Think hard before you procede.

Thank you so much for your extensive reply.

I did a surgical last time which produced only 2 pups. Uterus examined during surgical and in perfect condition. (full blood work and progesterone done prior)

Repro's thoughts are she is not dropping enough ripe eggs or she is resorping.

I figured this was a very expensive procedure and will look into that. Most likely beyond my pocket book.

I also will not do anything that would put my girls health at risk so thank you so much for your info.

I will contact Cornell for health risk info first and foremost.

How long ago did you research this? Any idea how long it is being used? I know it is used on horses as well.

So glad to hear you got wonderful pups from your litter.

Trust me I am thinking long and hard before proceeding. Not to mention doing tons of research.

If anyone else has info please respond.

Here is a Cornell link. http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2680&Print=1 The medications alone ran around $4000.00. All inclusive, the procedure was almost $9,000.00.

They have done this on cattle for years, I don't know about horses. I doubt many dog breeders have done this, the cost is high and most would rather retire a bitch than do all of this to her. That was my decision even with a Ch. BISS bitch. I was lucky the surgical ai worked. I have now retired my girl.

And keep in mind, two great pups are all you need.

You're right. One can do it also.

Wow!!! I would think that price is for getting a dog into heat (rapid induction of Estrus) and involves multiple injections?

The procedure I was looking into only involves 2 injections.

I have also heard this drug is used to hold off heat cycles so a bitch will cycle when it is convenient for the breeder to do a breeding. At lease I think it is the same drug. I read studies where it is used for sterilization (in hi doses) as well.

Thanks for the link - I found that one yesterday in my search.

I agree it only takes one or two great pups.

Who told you that? 1 or 2 GnRH injections will make your bitch sterile without other medications. It shuts off her own hormones!

What I was told during a meeting with 4 repros, you then need to add hormones from outside the body to make your dog *super-ovulate*. When super-ovulatation occurs you could wind up with a situation like the octuplets. The uterine horns are not meant to carry that many pups. If ultrasounds are not done to make sure not too many eggs are going to be ovulated, you could have too many pups fertilized & implant. An injection is given to make the eggs ovulate, you could have dozens fertilized and implanted in her uterus. She could abort, wind up with pyo or rupture her horns.

If too many eggs are produced, the staff recommends you forego that heat cycle. There goes the money spent for the injections, ultrasounds and consults. Then your bitch can have swollen ovaries for months or could be ill. These are some of the reasons I flat out, decided not to do this to my girl. Most breeders don't go this route for these reasons. The health of their bitch could be at stake and their wallets can't handle it.

4 surviving pups worked out for me, done by a repro-surgeon that had done many, many surgical ai's. Was the surgical ai done at around 72 hours after your bitch reached over 5.0 ng per ml progesterone?

I hope you're getting the picture of costs and the beginning of this complex process I looked into.

Is she from many years of your breeding a particular line with generations of reproductively healthy girls? If you have a mediocre bitch without the history of her dam, grand-dam and great-grand-dam, I wouldn't do more than a surgical ai. Do you realize, the chance of her 'female get' inheriting her problems, the lack of eggs at ovulation or tendency to resorb (not resorp) is possible also? Then what do you do a generation down the road? You finish her daughter, breed her and it's the same problem all over again. It's better to start fresh now rather then later if it's not at least 3-5 generations of known repro healthy girls preferably of your breedings behind her. If it is, your chances are better that won't happen. If it isn't, contact the breeder with the girls behind her.

I learned lots at the consultation, have a file folder full of print outs and some scanned information. I kindly advise that you think with your head, not your heart.

Email me if you would like. I am leaving for a show until Sunday evening. I can get back with you then. If you posted an email address I would have sent my post & documents to you and not wasted list space.

Don't mess with Mother Nature.

I agree with you. This stuff sounds crazy to try to have a larger litter.

There are other drugs involved in the process and this is from a renowned repro spec. I will not name names.

I hear everything you are saying. I am truly thinking with my head first and foremost for the health of my girl.

The reason I came here was because I was skeptical about this proceedure and I am so glad to have you responding with all the research you have done. I truly thank you.

Her surgical was done at the precise time post ovulation and followed up with a side by side the next day.

I have heard enough and will not be doing this procedure.

Thanks for all you input.