No flames, please.

I'm thinking about sending my dog out with a handler to pick up his final five points (needs one major and room for a few singles). I have never sent a dog out before, but I just can't take the time to make the trips this fall that I wanted to.

How many dogs should a handler have on the truck? I'm not asking for optimal care, although that is important, but at what point are dogs taken as fillers and how do I make sure my dog isn't one? There is one dog that I've already been told has priority for the Open class until he finishes, but he isn't similar in type to my dog so likely they won't both be in the ribbons together.

My gut says if the handler has more than say 3 in each sex that some of the dogs are fillers with little chance at winning until the better dogs finish. Not only do I want to minimize the impact on my checkbook, but I'd like to minimize my dogs time away from me.

TIA!

How many dogs does their van hold? That's how many they bring if given the money. And they will always give preference to the big clients. Are you one?

If YOU think your dog is of "filler" quality, why finish him at all ? Raise the bar in your own program, and then this is a non issue.

Ask the handler. A handler should be willing to tell you who goes in with him/her in the event he has multiple class winners to show in Winners, and he should tell you what other dogs he is showing. I also think that if you know judges well - that you should be able to colaborate with the handler on who your dog would do better under. On a weekend of shows, if your dog isn't the right type for any of the judges, then why should he be on the truck. If he has a shot on half the judges, then that would be okay with me.

Come on, REALLY???
If your dog isn't good enough to win, don't waste your money!
Sheesh!
If you are worried about the other dogs on the truck, keep him home!
Once those nicer dogs finish, there will be NEW nicer dogs to take their place!

Dear Anon for this:

If the handler has another dog in the same class as your's, simply ask him if he is saying your dog wont get shown at all? or will the handler not be handling it him/herself?

If the dog will get into the ring no matter what, then why not take the chance? Seriously, if your dog has it all, just because the handler thinks he/she has the better dog, does not mean the Judge thinks that.

In the end, it is up to the Judge. You said yourself that you are thinking of doing this because you wont have the chance to get out to these shows yourself. Well, what if you did have the chance to get to these shows - would you simply not enter when you see this handler there with the "better dog"?

(I am not bashing your handler or anything in this - I am just saying)

You should have the attitude that no matter who is on your dog - If you and your dog believe you can in - your dog will win. And if he doesn't, he doesn't. Next day, Next show, next win.

The moment you don't think you'll win, and you start giving up - the dog is going to feel it (as crazy as it sounds, they know when you just dont want to be there)

Best of luck in whatever you choose.

Sorry for any confusion. I think my dog is great. I love him and what he's produced and have put all 10 points on him with good competition.

We all know that sometimes there is a hint of politics in dog shows and I have unfortunately witnessed handlers who have multiple entries in a class and have seen judges more strongly consider a lesser dog that has the pro on it over a more typey/correct dog with the assistant on him.

I have been told that there is another dog on the truck with a 'better' client (I've never hired a handler before) who has priority. Either my dog will go in Am Bred or will be with an assistant in Open. Do I think my dog can beat the priority dog under the right judge? You Betcha. Do I think that it might not happen due to politics under some judges? You Betcha.

I also know that while my dog would be second priority in Open, the 'better' client has several young dogs on the truck that I don't consider to be competition really, but the handler will be showing them in their class.

I've also been told that if I pick and choose judges that I will lose my priority if there is another dog/owner that comes on the truck full time. The consistent dog gets priority.

The more I think of it, I may just find another handler or adjust my work schedule to try to make the fall specialties. One five point major is all we need and he's capable of it! With me handling too!

Congrats on getting so far with your boy! Showing has become more of a game and after awhile some people get frustrated and think they need to play the game on a more level playing field by hiring a handler. I'd say what's the hurry? How old is this boy? Is he getting better with age or should he be finished fast? Most Labs get better with age and I'd say just continue showing him at the rate you've been going and be satisfied when you do earn your championship. I've seen a lot of dogs finish at 5 or 6 years of age and some even older.

But as to your OP, I would definitely go with another handler. When I've gotten frustrated, I would send a dog out with a handler. One handler who I greatly admire told me he ONLY takes one dog of each sex per breed. Although he never did show my dog anyway--always his assistant or another handler who was quite capable. LOL I wasn't paying for the "name" just wanted the dog to be out more. He got one point on her. I put 14 points and both majors on this dog.

Good luck with your boy!

Hey, I'd say go for the owner handled scenario if you can do it.Maybe choose another handler if you can't take time off work. Can your boy handler being less than a star on a truck full of fillers? Sometimes the "star" doesn't do as well when he is just a number, stresses, and drops weight and coat. If you have handled him this far, maybe you SHOULD take the time off and finish him yourself, unless he is getting old or overdone looking and should be finished fast. Sometimes it is the whole package, the owner handler knowing how to get the best from her dog, with team work that makes the poetry in motion for the judge. Good luck whatever you choose.

Thats better :)

Adjust your fall schedule and get out there and kick butt!

Thanks to all who responded constructively.

This boy is just over three and is looking his best ever. He'll be in full coat for the fall shows and I was just hoping to finish him up before the end of the year. With teenagers and a job, it's hard to be in four places at once but I think I will take some of your advice and just show him myself.

I always wonder why you who have had bad experiences with some handlers won't state the name of those handlers who didn't do right by you. How else will we novices learn? And remember, truth is a defense to slander!

Truth is not a defense against abuse and retribution from the people who use that handler and from the handlers themselves.

The fact that someone could say it doesn't matter who finishes the dog really makes my heart sink. Such a statement shows how far away we have gotten from the idea of sport and hobby--and how far we have gotten from enjoying the connection and interaction with our dogs in the ring. People who think it doesn't matter who shows the dog reveal that they are all about winning and not about the joy of finishing your own dog. So very, very sad. And that is precisely what I hate about how handlers and the intense to desire to win have affected our sport.

my handler does not take fillers,,she does not take more than 1 for each class,this does not mean she fills the truck with dogs for all classes either,,,and is honest about what judges may be good for your dog,saves me money,,,but if she has a special,it will take presidence over a w/d or w.b.,it,s something special if she likes your dog well enough to go on the truck,,,

IMHO I will only use a handler that is not showing another class dog of the same breed at the same time as mine that way you don't run into the 1 per customer deal what sadly sometimes happens. I don't mind if they carry a special of that breed but if they have other class dogs I know that will reduce my chances.

Well I would guess any handler that doesn't have anymore than 1 class dog is not such a great handler then, are they?????!!!!

one dog per truck. You could simply pay the handler six times his/her normal fee. That way the handler could make a living and you would not feel taken advantage of.

This doesn't answer the OP's question, but I see a lot of folks judging those who use handlers. I'm one such person who has and does. I'm hardly rich, and paying those fees really hurts, however, I had one major back surgery five years ago (I had paralysis and drop foot and am lucky to be walking), and for about five years before that, I had severe back pain. I've had five foot surgeries in the past two years - two major, taking one year each to heal, one of which involved bone grafts. Between surgeries, I show my dogs as best I can, but sometimes I just can't. After a series of shows, I can promise you I pay dearly for showing myself. Hopefully I don't gripe about it enough that folks who know me are even aware. ... I work with folks that would just tell me to suck it up anyhow, and I hope my friends would do the same! At any rate, showing dogs is among the expressed forbidden activities from both my neurosurgeon and my orthopedic surgeon. I still do it when I can.

Yes, I have friends who can handle, but asking them to show my dogs at lots of shows is an imposition. So yes, I use a handler when I just can't show as often or as well as I wish I could. No, I am not looking for sympathy. I only mention all of this, because sometimes you don't know why people do what they do. I sure don't pity myself. I'm walking, and I'm healthy (even if I am falling apart at the seams). I'm just limited sometimes.

Be careful how you judge people. It's none of anyone's business why they do or do not use a professional handler. I have nothing but respect for those who are out there every weekend handling and finishing their own dogs. I envy them. Perhaps some of you should walk a mile in the shoes of others before you jump to conclusions or cast aspersions.

Next time you see me running around the ring, know there is a Dr. out there madder than hell at me. I don't care... being out there is worth it. If you see me sitting on the sideline watching my handler, know that I just know my limits. Sometimes I show the easy ones at the same show my handler takes in the ones who would put me in bed for weeks.

Regardless, please understand that sometimes you don't know why people do what they do.
Dian

You know, after reading Dian's post, and the one from "WRONG", it occurs to me that just possibly "commonsense" doesn't have any.

Outside of the US people do just fine without handlers. UKC does just fine without handlers.

You ought to take the advice you give and be careful about the judgments you make. I have a back injury plus pretty bad arthritis in my feet. And yes, I pay dearly--and I ask friends. And when I can't do that any more, I will be using a cart--as dear Annie Cogo did.

Commonsense, indeed!!! Plus a love of the sport and working with my dogs. I also have friends. I don't need handlers. What's more, I won't let handlers deprive me of the joy of showing my own dogs.

curious- Sometimes the bad experience may not be the handler's fault. The dog and the handler need to fit. This has to come before anything else can work. Then there is the money aspect- it is very expensive to send a dog out. Then there is the human aspect. Personalities don't always mesh. If the handler is well known for taking the best care of the dogs they have on the road-then a talk with the handler needs to take place. I'm not talking about a ringside chat. Handlers are beyond busy at shows, rarely taking a minute, having too long a day for anyone. You need to speak when that handler is home, which may be one day a week. You ask ALL your questions, get ALL your answers then decide whether or not it will work. There is no such thing as a filler. Every dog on that truck is a responsibility, even if it is a difficult dog to finish. They take a commitment, it needs to happen for that dog. Whether or not it happens in two weeks or ten, that's another matter.
Talk to the handler. Get your answers, then make a decision. I know I have had dogs that were specials and first priority, and have had class dogs that were lower on the list, but they finished too. But bottom line is every handler is different and will have different answers. You can't make generalizations. The handler also has to be adaptable. They may get into the ring thinking one dog is the one they'll stay on and after seeing the judging that day, move to another dog in winners. They are being paid to use that judgement- you can't second guess them or dictate where they take the dog. You are paying for their knowledge- my only advice is to use it.
Bottom line is- get your answers first, then make your decision. Good luck. Hope your boy finishes quickly!

And if you believe that, I know a nice bridge in Brooklyn you can buy.

To the person(s) using the throwaway hotmail address that wrote to me in private, I will answer you in public. I am guessing from the word "we", there is more than one of you.

Just because you do not see any "limping" or any "evidence" of pain, does not mean someone is not in pain. It would be foolish to lie about surgeries, as a lack of scars would become evident to all. Anytime you want to see the scar on my back, or the road maps my feet have become, feel free to ask.

I said before, I am not looking for sympathy. I'm walking! I'm fine! I just have some limitations (some days more than others), and have to be careful. I never knew there was so much hatred for people who elect to use a handler for whatever reason they wish, or need to use them. My dogs have won with them handling them, and with me handling them. I'm just happy when I can get them out there, no matter who is on them.

So, for the person(s) who called me a liar, here is a link to the diagnosis that led to the back surgery you state never happened, or causes long term issues:
click here
Happily, I had a great recovery!

And here is a link to a photo of my foot in 2007 after my first of five foot surgeries:
click here

Not everything is as it seems on the outside, is it?

While this forum is nicer on the surface with some moderation, there appears to be stuff happening on the back end that is pretty nasty. Wow!

With that, I wish you all a wonderful time on this forum. Enjoy your dogs!

Dian

A handler that has one dog per class, rather than multiple dogs per class is a handler that values every dog and every client relationship. There is nothing wrong with that, and I completely respect it.

However, if the handler has a partner or employees that do just as good of a job as the handler - I don't care how many dogs they have per class, because there is a reason why that person is working with or for that handler.

I have seen many handlers who kick the dog to the curb if they can't take it in, and give it to some inexperienced person just to fill the class.

But I also see many handling relationships, like Rusty & Jenn Howard, John & Joanne Griffith, William Alexander & Monica Parks, etc that have people working for them that do just as great as a job as they do. And they will not let your dog go to some random person. They will make sure your dog is well taken care of. So when I send my dogs off with them - I dont have a doubt in their abilities.

Between "commonsense", "respect???", and a couple of others here (whom I suspect are really the same person) methinks I smell some unpleasant old relics whose physical infirmities manifest themselves in degraded handling ability. Now, in the twilight (after all, it's been 40 years now) of their being competitive in the breed their dogs aren't good enough to overcome the bad handling, and whether it's the professional handlers or one of us other owner handlers the resentment and frustration are just too much and they are cracking up. The difference between me and them is I have the "commonsense" to recognize that I need a handler on my dogs when I can't get around the ring on a particular day. Here's some news: a good professional handler with a bag over their head so as to be unrecognizable will still win over poor handling. Like it or not, handling errors will make a good dog look bad. OTOH, good handling can make a good dog look better but can't make a bad dog look good.

I guess that depends on what you consider okay!!!

Not only do I believe it, but it has worked for the last 35 years.

Well said. More than one judge has told me they think it is silly when the person handling turns this way or does that- they all say the same thing- do they think we are stupid? They laugh- there is no way to hide faults or faulty movement. Pat Trotter gives some hilarious examples of how poor handling will just make her nuts- almost to the point of sending the owner out of the ring. Some judges get frustrated because they cannot see the movement after 3 times around the ring, so they pass on the dog. Don't say Lab movement means nothing- these dogs need to work long hours over field and stream- they have to be able to move efficiently. A professional handler handles well because they are doing it 50 weeks a year, on average 3 shows/ weekend, anywhere from 6-20 dogs per day. (of course not all travel with them). If you want to really handle your own dogs, take handling clinics, train the dog to stack and practice. You also cannot expect a dog to be in the groove going to two shows a month. You just cannot walk into a ring and expect the dog to shine if you and he are not trained to do so. You may think you handle just fine out there- have a friend videotape you. Then look at it with a critical eye. I sat at a show this weekend and watched dogs running in zig zags hoping their owner handlers would catch up to them. I saw more crabbing going on than on this forum. Sidewinding was especially nice. Some dogs won in spite of it all. But instead of trying to tear apart the handlers, some self evaluating needs to be done. Some homework too.

I personally think the people who have such bad attitudes against professional handlers are the very ones who either can't afford to use them and/or are very bitter because they do not win themselves handling or with their dogs. I personally have absolutely no desire to get in the conformation ring and show my dogs (we do performance titles on our dogs too, field and obedience) and I know alot of people who feel the same. I don't have time to go to shows every weekend and travel and all of that. Lucky for all us busy people there are handlers who can help us,after all, this is a hobby right?! If you don't like the game, don't play and if you do choose to play, don't be a hater, worry about your own dogs and if they are not winning, ask yourself why. The pros win because they take on nice dogs, look at a dog who has consistently won since they have been showing on a regular basis since they were a six month old baby, that's not a fluke, that's a very NICE dog!

If her boy only needs 5 points to finish and already has 1 of his majors I think you can say he's good enough to win. Give the OP a break and be kind.

So true! The one yellow that is out this year, that Sher-Mi dog. He had all his single points at 6 months of age! I am sure there are others as well.