hi guys I am having a problem with cruciate ligament injuries.I have two dogs which are sired by different sires although they go back to the same stud line gad about.There dams are half sisters as well.Do you believe this is genetic? a conformational flaw? or a conditional problem ? I am at witts end with this.Appreciate any input you can offer..

All/any combination of the above??? I've read many points of view/research & none are conclusive in my mind. JMO Sorry to hear what you're dealing with!

I saw first hand a genetic component..dogs all raised in diff. homes, sizes varied, angulations varied, diets varied, environment varied, pedigree was consistent.

I have to disagree that is is genetic.
These are dogs, injuries happen they run around like mad men.
Plus a cruciate injury CAN heal with out surgery, it may leave a bit of scare tissue but it still can heal.
it has gotten tot he point that any injury with a dog is now genetic, well of course it is with out mom and dad there would be no pup.

I think that over-angulation can be the culprit. This, then, would be genetic. I had a litter many years ago where 2 siblings (that I had kept to show) (each) had ACL surgery at a little over a year old. I will admit that I let them play as hard as they wanted, and even let them play with the older dogs, but they each had quite the turn of stifle. I do segregate age groups now, but they still play very hard and I have not had problems since. I do believe that certain lines can be more prone to this type of injury.

I was told by an orthopedic surgeon that he sees it more in dogs with straight stifles. The only one we've had was in a girl with a straight stifle.

I have been told by surgeons and by several vets that its a conformational problem but she does'nt have straight stifles.I appreciate all of you sharing your expertise.

So there you have it - take your pick!

LOL

"Plus a cruciate injury CAN heal with out surgery, it may leave a bit of scare tissue but it still can heal."

This I'd love to hear more about that comment. I have 2 boys totally different lines that both needed TPLO. I was told by 3 vets that if it wasn't repaired severe arthritis would set in.

"Plus a cruciate injury CAN heal with out surgery, it may leave a bit of scare tissue but it still can heal."

I'd love to hear more about that comment. I have 2 boys totally different lines that both needed TPLO. I was told by 3 vets that if it wasn't repaired severe arthritis would set in.

that's what happened with us and our male that had 2 TPLOs. Although our girl who's completely straight in the stifles is fine, the boy who was moderately straight had the problems.

I don't know about it healing on it's own. I suppose if you can stand crating your dog for 6+ months with no activity, you can do it. I preferred fixing it with surgery. It's done, he's better, and earned all his OB/Rally titles since the surgery!

I have a working great pyrennes, she has over 40 acres to cover while protecting 50 head of goats.
3 years ago she came up very lame and it turned out to be a cruciate ligament injury. Vet wanted to do surgery but after talking to another ortho vet that was more of a friend he suggested trying the natural healing first.
She was "crated" which for her was being kept in the kidding pen that is 50 x 100 for 2 months put on anti inflammatory and supplements. After we allowed her out into the 5 acre area for about a month then back into the large pasture.
took about 3 months of a slight limp but you cant even tell now a days. I am glad I did not put her through the surgery.

Do you keep your Girl on supplements? Are you worried about arthritis? My Ortho told me that it will never heal itself and arthritis will set in. Anyone else with long time experience without doing surgery

she is on arthritis suppliments I just got her ofa exrays done and it showed her knees and YES a lot of arthritis..hips elbows were good but her joint is fryed..she was only 3 months old when it happened her dad was playing with her and injured it and at that age they cannot do surgery.We crated her and you could not even tell she had a problem we followed up the crating with swimming each day in our pond..she is two now and limps and again has lots of arthritis..do the surgery

i'm confused .. who's on first??

What's on second! I've been told that if a cruciate is not complete torn, with rest, it MAY heal but not if the dog has completely blown it.

Is on 3rd.

They don't know for sure if it's genetic, environmental or both. Heavily overworking a young dog that does not have closed growth plates and it's conditional in my opinion.

Tell all your buyers just that before they take their pups home. No heavy running especially leashed to a bicycle (I've seen it with young pups!) No running on in or outdoor slippery floors, no hiking, and no jogging until age 2 are a few good examples.

Most of these injuries seem to occur before the growth plates close. Would we do these things with our growing pups? No way. It's very important to inform future labrador owners of this from the time they get on your list for a pup. If it doesn't work for them, get another breed.

I was furious years ago when Dr.s' Foster and Smith had an article in their catalogue that said torn cruciates were 100% genetic. Orthopedists aren't sure, they go case by case, but these two pet item sellers knew more than specialists. I never bought from their catalogue again but it still arrives here after asking them to stop. They must be hooked up with AKC. They are *knowitall* businessmen with a degree at the end of their names. They don't practice medicine and surely not orthopedics.

Look at the third or fourth study down on the page. Research is being done to determine what, if any, genetic issue there is with CCL injuries.

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/cic/current/sasurgery/home.html

Is it a complete tear? We had a Beagle that tore both- While he was recovering from one he tore the other. He had complete tears and would hitch up the limb and not bear any weight on it at all. Repairs worked, but when he hit ten (repairs occurred at seven), he was somewhat stiff, but might have been anyway at that age.

My ortho vet tells me that there is proof of a genetic link in Newfies. Sorry, but I do not have details on this. I think I will ask her if she can provide me with this the next time we talk.

JUST MY EXPERIENCE

I have gone through 4 cruciate repairs (2 were on the same dog, both knees). 1 was on a litter sister to the other 2 dogs' sire. All were raised by me, in the same environment, yet none of my other dogs have had a lame day in their lives (there are 3 others in my home, all older than the ones with cruciate repairs, all raised here too).

All were complete tears and none of the ligaments showed any outward signs of disease or degeneration. What was similar on these dogs was the angle of the femur and tibia, which caused extra strain on the knee.

Structure is genetic.

I asked a very experienced and intelligent orthopedic specialist this very question. He said that there were no studies at the time pointing to either hereditary or environmental facctors. However, he said he felt that there were conformational/anatomical aspects that contributed to many cruciate ligament ruptures. He said when he got into the joint, there was a shallow area on the groove that the knee ligament rode on was not deep enough to hold the joint together. Do these physical characteristics run in lines? Possibly. Does that mean that you should never breed a dog that has a cruciate ligament tear? NO! Accidents do happen, and a dog that has a ligament tear can produce generations of dogs that are sound (my opinion based on experience).
There simply is not enough information to base a hard decision on. Use your own best judgment.

If there isn't a complete tear the knee can heal.

If there is a complete tear then there is no stability in the knee and any scar tissue that forms will not stabilize the knee it remains wobbly, this leads to horrendous arthritis in the future. Stabilizing the knee with an extracapsular repair will allow scar tissue to form to continue stabilizing the knee. The wires, tapes, bands etc are not meant to replace the ligament, only to stabilize the knee while scar tissue forms to take over.

There can be a conformation connection and conformation is genetic. Tears in a younger dog is usually caused by an injury. Other factors influence older dogs and a majority of older dogs will need the other knee repaired within 18 months.

In people these types of injuries are often caused by not warming up or stretching prior to exercise, this is also thought to be a factor in dogs, especially the couch potato that only gets out on the weekend. Excess weight will add to the problem. Cruciate ligament surgery in dogs now outnumber cruciate ligament surgery in people.

The sooner you get the knee stabilized the better. Surgery isn't usually done in a young dog until the growth plates close (around 14 months). There are custom braces that can be made to help stabilize the knee but they are seldom successful and very costly. Surgically cleaning up arthritis doesn't help and the arthritis comes back worse.

hi Just me...you seem very knowledgeable are you a surgeon? or have you just had extensive experience with this? I agree conformation and genetic is the same thing.I believe with my young girl it was an injury.She is now 28 months and when I took her in to get her OFA he saw a good amount of arthritis already although she gets around well.He said it was to late for surgery is this true? She runs and plays and swims etc.Some days not a limp others a good limp.Is she just being stoic? I very much appreciate your input and your time to respond.thank you Diane

Of course, some are simply injuries. It happens. If a dog has been running agility for years, for example, it stands to reason that excess wear leaves them prone to injuries like this.

Should a puppy less than a year old have a complete tear just from normal play? That leads me to ask more questions. My girl had the youngest case of a cruciate tear that my specialist had ever seen, and she has done thousands upon thousands of these surgeries. This leaves me feeling very uncomfortable about dismissing it as a simple injury, especially since she has an aunt and a littermate who have both had complete tears.

Everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with, but I am one that tends to rather be safe than sorry.

As far as the genetic/conformation argument goes, I honestly don't see how one can argue that conformation doesn't have a genetic factor! Of course it does.