Dear Breeders
I was told of this site and hope that you can give me some advice. I purchased an 8 week old male puppy from a breeder in NJ who has been breeding for many years. We are a first time puppy owner, I have two young children 6 and 8. We can not pet the puppy as he bites (not mouths) and bears down hard on us. I have hired a professional behaviorist/trainer (with 25 yrs exp.) who has worked with the pup for 3 weeks and has come to the conclusion that this puppy can not be trusted around young children. He actually jumped up and clenched onto my thigh yesterday as I took him to go out and did not let go.
I contacted the breeder asking what to do and she said I should bring him back but, she will only refund me half of the purchase price. I have spent quite a bit on eval. and training and feel we should get a full refund-she has no litters due and quite frankly, I would not want another pup from her.
Any suggestions?
Thank you

What does your contract say??? Have you taked to the breeder about the costs you're incurred??

If you have only had him 3 weeks, I would think the breeder would give you a full refund.
Sorry this happened to you and your family.

Just curious what methods you and/or the trainer have used before you came to the conclusion that the puppy can't be trained?

I would also think if you have only had the pup for 3 weeks you would get a full refund from the breeder. Most pups go through this at a few weeks. Breeders can work with pups at this time and pups learn this is not good to nip. I have had some harder to break than others. But I do it before the pups go home. That is sad you need a trainer for such a young pup.

Contract only guarantees health for 2 weeks...I don't care so much about the costs I've incurred as I would spend any amount to help this little guy. The trainer employs the Volhard method of training if that helps you out. This puppy does not "nip" it bites and does not release-he should not have been hanging from my leg like a pitbull. I thought most breeders take puppy personality into account when placing pups-that is why we are not given a choice of puppies. This pup may do better with an exp., strong owner without young children. I did not purchase a lab puppy for my children and then come to find out they cannot even pet this puppy. Do you know my son asked the trainer "can you train him so I can pet his head?"
I just don't know if I have any recourse at this point....
I don't understand if the breeder has spoken to the trainer and was told by a professional that the puppy needs to be returned (and it is not coming from me, an inexp. dog owner) that she will not reimburse me after only 3 weeks?
I know lemon laws cover hereditary issues and state " if pup is unfit for purchase , ill or defective" if that would include temperament.
What should be a happy time for my family has turned into a nightmare....
thanks to all who offer advice-I am not looking to make problems for the breeder, I just am looking to see if I am unreasonable and if there are any avenues I have not explored from a professionals point of view, such as those of you on this forum

It is very much likely that this puppy was probably the runt of the litter and was picked on from Day 1. And now he feels that he can bite anything for revenge. It is also possible that your kids ( no offense ) but they might have been flashing their hands in his face and he thought they were chew toys and got in the habit of snapping at the hands.

This might sound nasty - but I highly suggest that you get a rotten egg and when he comes to bite you, make sure he bites it. Or, wear adhesive gloves and spray bitter apple on it and when he bites it and squirms, tell him NO BITE! And give him his toy.

You have to be firm and persistent with this training, and you must ensure that there is no encouragement within your household promoting the biting.

This might seem harmful - but its not. Its better than having another bite in your leg/hand.

I am sorry that this breeder is not willing to help you or give you tips on helping him.

Thats why we are here

Health is guaranteed for "2 weeks"??? Do you mean two years???? Has this pup been like this from day one? I'm sorry for what you're dealing with.

He was not the runt, I saw the litter but thank you for that suggestion.
I don't want a puppy that I can not trust with my children, even though I do not leave them unsupervised with the puppy. I bought a lab BECAUSE of their temperaments and above poster was right, I shouldn't need a trainer at 9-11 weeks-not for this.
Though no one can predict just what he will grow into, based on the exp. and knowledge of the behaviorist the outlook is not good-yes, he is "workable" but I want lovable and predicatable, I want a puppy that wags its tail and gives kisses at least some of the time.
Am I unrealistic?

If it were my puppy, I would take it back and refund your purchase price. I don't know if the puppy was not socialized properly before it left the litter, if it has an inherent temperament problem, or if there is something in the dynamics of your family that is causing the problem. Whatever is causing the problem, that is not the right puppy for your family. I hope your breeder has second thoughts.

I have heard this many times where breeders only give a health guarantee of 2 weeks after the puppy leaves the house.

I thought that it was obscure myself, but then I got thinking that a breeder cannot guarantee that this puppy will not encounter any disease no matter the guarantee. And this would not be the breeders fault.

Yes he has been like this since about day two, once he got "settled" that is why I contacted a professional for an eval right away.
No, not two years, two weeks-I know, I am now hearing that is not the norm either.....sigh.
I will tell you, I got this breeders name from a "valid" posted source.

Thank you Peggy..
I can tell you I had the trainer come to my house on numerous days to just observe our family dynamics (as your thought was hers as well).
It is not us, it is the puppy.
I have now contacted this breeder numerous times and the trainer has spoken with her twice-she is not changing her mind.

Hmmm....I know breeders often guarantee a healthy puppy for a certain period of time after they go to their new homes and to give an owner time to have them vet checked AND then, in addition for an overall 2 yr period for things like PRA, dysplaysia. Did you talk to the breeder right away about the biting?? Any suggestions from the breeder if you did??? Regardless, as Peggy said, this is NOT the pup for you and I do hope you can work things out with the breeder - I'm surprised they didn't offer to take this pup back as soon as they knew about the problem?! However, I would also carefully evaluate your motives for getting a pup for the "children". What you're looking for in a lab pup doesn't happen automatically - it takes lots of work & time which you may or may not have with 2 young children. JMO

Is this a breeder who is breeding simply for pets and really has money as their bottom line? I know most of the breeders on this list, me included, want the best home for each puppy and if it's not working out, we'd certainly do something about it, not just refunding half your money. Where did you get the recommendation for this breeder?

Has this pup been to a vet for an evaluation? Something seems to be radically wrong. There must be a reason for his behavior. How are the temperaments on the parents?

It seems clear to me you have no choice but to return the puppy to the breeder and get what you can in the way of a refund. You have to look out for your children first. What a shame this happened. I would do it ASAP so you can get on with your life and avoid any injury to your children.

HINT: when puppies get wild, they are similar to a toddler and have to be put down for a nap. CRATE TIME! Then one uses gentle, economical movements when one gets him out or trains him. Does that help? How's housebreaking going?

Kids tend to jump and squeal and run and flap and get puppies overexcited. I imagine the puppy was hanging onto your clothing or shoelaces? Did you ask the breeder to help you train the pup before spending the money on an outsider? Did you go to a group class? Has anyone, including what was probably an overpriced expert, shown you how to gently push the puppy's lips in over his teeth to get him to let go? How to trade for whatever he grabs? One walks around with kibble or treats in each outfit and up high in each room and teaches command "trade."

With any luck you didn't use the behaviorist from NJ who was in all the papers for his cruelty. Or one that someone said didn't like most young Lab pups except from one breeder. Another puppy-wise big dog, a well educated grandma dog or puppy aunt or uncle, could have solved more for you and the behaviorist. What you have is two professionals who disagree. Most breeders are to a great extent behaviorists, and they specialize in their own breed.

Look at it from the breeder's point of view: she may have sold you a puppy who was just fine, one sturdy enough in spirit not to be cowed by children, their friends, and their activity, and now pup is sort of ruined by reputation and will need rehab for while. I am starting to understand why other breeders choose homes with no children under 10 yrs old or only experienced homes. As a mother, I can see it from both sides, and yet I am glad that I didn't place with you. Good intentions and all, but puppy wildness is pretty normal. My kids preferred puppies under 9 weeks or over 3 years old at the ages of your children--and they grew up with Labs. Puppies are highly overrated. Even show bred ones can be Marley in novice hands. You sound scared of this puppy, and I think Pup knows it. That is how YOU ruined the puppy, possibly, from the breeder's point of view. You claimed to plan on handling this puppy when he is 70 lbs bigger than when he came home, and you no longer will stand by that promise.

I am currently feeding Eukanuba puppy to a litter of two with good results, but I do find that some individual pups get too revved on it or Iams or other food with by products, corn and sorghum. Forget the shredded and dye laden foods and treats, including those from Purina. Try Eagle Pack, Wellness, something like that. Soft wellness treats can be high value for trading and training.

Wow, 3 weeks and you gave up. No wonder I sometimes hear of pups in rescues. You need to get a retired, trained, cream puff, ready-made companion, for I am sure your kids and you would like that better. You owe it to the pup to get him back where he will be appreciated. A pup is not a good fit, and you just found that out. Sad but true. At least you are willing to return him. You are not even willing to pay rent or repair, though. At least breeder is willing to refund half--sounds as though contract doesn't require that. If you treat pup badly enough, I am sure he will act badly. Environment is not genetic.

After all, aren't you a better driver now than when you first learned how to drive? It is similar with dog experience.

Please take him back. If contract doesn't require ANY refund because you are tired of puppy training, then breeder is doing you a favor. Get him back and get half price before breeder changes money and requires pup back with no refund. Forget what I wrote about food. Take him back tonight and get back what you can.

I recall an episode that happened a number of years ago to a breeder who used my stud dog, so I only know about the episode because she asked my advice, and I don't think she is breeding Labs anymore- haven't heard from her in years. A pup from a previous litter was supposedly a problem actor. Somehow the pup ended up in the hands of the law -he turned out to be a perfect drug detection dog or some such thing. He had a great prey drive that made him easy to train for such a task. He ended up living with the officer that handled him and, with the training and the relationship he had with that authority figure, he became a good pet. Unfortunately, he was older- at least a year old. But maybe that would be a good solution to your problem pup, if you could contact an appropriate agency. I'm sorry I don't remember the details- it was close to 20 years ago and here in the upper midwest.

You should consider yourself lucky that the breeder is willing to give you half, as it is likely you greatly contributed to this problem yourself. So quick to give up, our disposable society! I get so many emails from people looking for a "mellow" puppy for their children. Even the most laid back puppy is not mellow and all puppies bite. I am glad I did not sell you a puppy and I sure hope I won't be getting a call from you for the replacement. The above poster is correct in that a puppy is not a good fit for you, your expectations were not based in reality.

Peggy, I work with local police who train for detection work and they look for dogs (usually 1 yr & up) who have a high RETRIEVING drive, not a high PREY drive.

Dear Anon..no wonder that is your call name You are just plain ignorant and rude to boot.
Neither my children nor I are afraid, they are well mannered as witnessed by the breeder when we went to visit-for you to come to that conclusion, along with we ruined the puppy and gave up on him tells me a lot about how you see life.
I did not purchase a lab pup "for" my children, we wanted a new family member and 6 and 8 are not too young. I am the one taking full responsibility for housebreaking, obed, etc.
I said in my earlier post I am willing to do anything for this pup providing that it will pay off..I am a better driver now but if I was driving a clunker that kept breaking down it wouldn't matter who good my skills got over time, what I'm working with is the problem.
This pup has been vet checked, blood work etc, and is fine in that respect. He is eating Eagle Pack Holistic C&R.
My behaviorist is not the above mentioned is very well respected in the field with 25 yrs exp.
We brought the pup to a training session involving adult dogs who put him in his place a few times as I know dogs can communicate on levels beyond us-he still bites. He was not hanging on my pants, he broke my skin.
My environment is not bad, I am not even saying the puppy is aggressive, he is just not a pup that should be placed in this particular situation.
Anon, sounds like you have had some bad things happen to you in your life to be so defensive and jaded-I hope it gets better for you. You are really way off in your advice but I'm taking what you said as just an "opinion" and you know what they say about those.
Breeder name was given to me from a club website.
I can see just from this post that there really are good and bad in all fields-to all the respectable responses, I really do thank you, I wanted to try and see it from a breeders point of view-as I said, I don't want to make trouble but I do think I'm entitled to a full refund.

I think what OP is saying is that the puppy can be returned for full price within 2 weeks if her veterinarian finds a health problem. This is a common clause in contracts.

OP, since you are OK with spending more money on this pup, I'd suggest you should get a second opinion. There must be other behavior specialists in NJ. All puppies do not respond to all training methods equally well. Maybe another point of view and alternative suggestions would help.

I tend to agree that you were quite unprepared for a puppy. Have you had puppies before? They all bite and pull on clothing, etc... Have you tried rolling his lip under his canine when he bites so that he bites on his lip rather than you? What do you do when he bites you? I'm going to ignore the trainer as most of them aren't well-versed in young puppies, but what exactly do you do when the puppy bites??? As far as not being able to trust him with your kids - you sure can't trust ANY puppy at that age - they bite! And I'm sure your kids are angels, but I'm sure they still run and squeal and get the puppy going. Don't tell me they don't - I have 2 kids myself and know how kids are.

I agree - you need to return the puppy ASAP for the puppy's health and sanity!

And kudos to Anon - they are right on!

Dear Agree,
I did not have unreal expectations..all pups mouth, bite, normal pups do NOT bear down and refuse to let go, nor do they hang from your thigh.
I am the one who is lucky not to have contacted you.
Would you breed to a stud dog of this nature?
Why do you breed labs and not pitbulls or Akitas or Dobermans?
I am not giving up or disposing of anything, my family comes first-does yours?
Many breeders I spoke with prior told me they would never tolerate anything but typical lab temp. in their kennels-are you "agree" telling me different?
Please, don't make me out to be the bad person here...we have a wonderful home with lots of love to give, we did not jump the gun and "assume" anything on our own-we have been observed with the pup, took him to private lessons, have him vet eval.let other dogs discipline him and would be willing to continue IF what we were dealing with was "normal puppy behavior". To suggest this it normal is not being honest to yourself and perhaps it is breeders like you who would be willing to overlook other issues as well. Shame on you.

Again - have you ever had a puppy before??? You apparently think puppies are sweet little cuties who never are supposed to bite down. I'll break it to you - they all do - they need to learn boundaries - you need to teach them!

Although this is a new puppy for my kids, I grew up with dogs, worked at a vets office for 8 years and was a helper for a women who used to give puppy kindergarten and obed classes. I know dogs and puppies well.
Yes, I have pushed his lip in, it doesn't much phase him after the release, he just walks away.
My children are, as I said supervised with the pup-not allowed to go face to face with him and of course normally have a higher toned voice than adults but are by no means running screaming from this puppy.
The trainer has done TT testing on 100's of litters over 25 years and takes puppies in for clients and trains them in the home, or comes to your home-which ever is best for you. Very well versed in all ages of dogs, and competes with own dogs in obed and agility.

An sorry, I think this puppy has a problem. Can't believe in two weeks this family has messed up a puppy. Not fair. I have seen a wild puppy or two. They can't be trained, they don't stop biting. I would take this puppy back before someone gets bit and get infection. Not worth it. I witness how they act. The people I know tryed and tryed. Had to give up and place pup on farm. By then it was over a year. Can't believe in just two or three weeks you can't get your full money back. I would sure give it to you. I would want the pup back to see what was going on. Puppys do love to play rough. With a litter that is what they are use to. This seem extreme.

Dear New Puppy Owner,

I for one am sorry for your experience so far, it does sound from your posts, that you did your homework and expected normal puppy behavior. Have you tried taking your thumb nail and pressing it behind the teeth of the puppy's lower jaw, enough to make him yipe, then in a firm, deep voice say "NO BITE", I've always found that to work well. Is your breeder willing to take the pup back and work with him or come by you and work with him. It may be that this puppy is a wrong fit and if you've already decided you don't want him or anything from the breeder, then maybe the best course of action is to return him and take what ever you're being offered.
I wish you well.

I would ask for and expect a full refund after only having the puppy for a few weeks. Yes, all pups bite as they are learning, but lab puppies do not bite and latch on and not let go! At least mine don't. I know it is hard to guarantee a puppies temperament, but after only a few weeks, I feel a full refund is in order. With almost anything you purchase you get 30 days to return for full refund. If a breeder prides themselves as breeding quality labrador puppies then first and foremost after health is temperament. Right out the breed standard it describes the temperament of a labrador showing no aggressive behavior. If the puppy acts like that now, it is not going to be a suitable family dog. Let the breeder deal with placing it in the right home since they failed to do it right the first time.

Temperament
True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the "otter" tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized.

Also, new puppy owner, don't listen to all this negative. There are a lot of breeders that always want to blame the new owners for everything that goes wrong with a puppy.

It was a long time ago, and I don't remember exactly what the problem behavior was except that the dog was too dominant for the home in which he'd been placed. I know you agree that this pup does not belong with this family. I hope you agree that he might do very well, indeed, with a handler who knows how to deal with a very active, possibly also dominant personality.

Thank you "Full Refund"..I did not expect so much negativity here, esp. from breeders who have dedicated their lives to this wonderful breed. Yes, the description from the breed standard is just what I had hoped for. I did my homework and thinking that I picked a breeder listed in a club (that speaks about ethical breeding) I thought I was in good hands.
The breeder wants me to send my puppy out to a "breeder friend" for a few weeks so they can work with him. Breeder of pup says they can't take him to work with him. I don't know of this other breeder nor do I want to send my puppy away to not even his own breeder nor risk anything happening to him while he is out of my home and then being responsible for that too.. Breeder of pup admits this is a problem, just won't refund me for it or work with him .

What were you expecting when you first posted??? Regardless of what anyone suggests here, it's not going to make your pup's breeder change his mind. I'm very sorry for your situation and the pup's too and hope that a satisfactory solution can be found.

I would suggest contacting the New Jersey Consumers Against PetShop Abuse.

http://www.njcapsa.org/

The people with this organization may be able to help you, even though its a temperament issue. They are not anit-breeder/PTEA types, they are just against ripping off consumers and unethical breeders.

I am very sorry you are going through this, I know I would want the puppy back if I was the breeder to further evaluate the situation and issue a full refund.

Dear OP, do you want to be right or do you want to get this whole thing behind you and your family, and move on? Asking a forum full of anonymous breeders their opinions won't solve your problem. Your breeder doesn't care what the "forum" thinks, what you think, or what your trainer thinks either. Take the offer or keep the puppy. Pretty simple really, it isn't up to a group of *anonymous* people getting info second hand, to pass judgement on you, your trainer, or your breeder.

Puppy Owner,

Do you know how your puppy was raised at the breeder's home/kennel?
Just curious about those early weeks before puppy came into your home......

I hope you are finding some answers and support here. It is difficult
to open yourself up, only to meet with criticism. To me, it sounds as if
you are doing all you can, and I want to say thank you for not
giving up, and trying to help this little one.

a few days ago a breeder asked about someone who had a puppy and was worried that they were the reason it was so mean and aggressive. Just wondered if these could be the same???

I have been breeding and showing for 25 years. I have not yet come across a puppy that would not stop biting, at some point. I will say, though, that some just seem to bite more. This could be the case with your pup. Aside from the return at half price - how would you feel about selling the puppy to an adult home, certainly explaining to them what the situation is. It is more involved, but you could probably get most or all of your money back that way. I sell older pups often and ask full price. I don't understand why your breeder won't take it back at full price. She could more than likely sell it at full price.

Dear New Pup Owner...

I have had a similar situation with a pup- absolutely no bite inhibition! It was not my first lab pup- and I, too, was not accustom to this behavior. We failed puppy class (bit instructor and drew blood the last class)...but, I repeated the class (with a different instructor). I won't bore you with the details...its water under the bridge for me. My situation was different in that I did not have kids in the equation (that would have been a deal breaker for me). I will tell you that I worked VERY hard to learn what made this pup tick- I also worked hard to find the right trainer(s) who believed they could help me figure the pup out & TRAIN us both!!! I was lucky, I had the time, desire and BELIEF we could figure it out & we did. This pup is now the best dog- awesome in obedience, rally & hunting!

Let this pup go! If you can't get a full refund- take 50% and let that go, too. Move on for your sake (the kids)and that of the pup! Don't delay w/ shuffling him to another breeder...he needs solid ground if he is going to recoup from this experience. Based on what you have said here, I don't believe you are going to bond with this pup...no judgement, just observation, not a "good fit" as they say.

JMHO-Best of luck to you.

Thanks to all of you who responded.
What I had hoped to gain from posting was seeing this situation from the breeders point of view-I have gotten that both from breeders who would have stood behind their pup and those who were just looking to place blame somewhere other than on sometimes this just happens. You can get unacceptable behavior in a litter, just like any other health issue that creeps up.
It is not that I won't bond with this pup, I won't allow this type of temp. in my house with young kids.
I am not the same person who a breeder posted about a mean or aggressive dog-as I posted, he is not aggressive.
Since this breeder simply does not seem interested in the welfare of this pup maybe above poster had a good idea and that would be to sell him to someone who is a better fit. I don't want him going back to her as it appears I am more bonded to him after only 3 weeks than she is after 8..I want him to have a good life and really don't want to make trouble for the breeder. He is beautiful and deserves to be loved for who he is and not resented for what he is not.
Thanks again for all the points of view..

Dear New Puppy Owner;

I was once in your shoes. A puppy from h*ll. The behavior you are describing could have been one I wrote about my puppy. My kids were 4 & 6 at the time. My youngest hated this puppy. She kept asking me to take her back. She didn't like this puppy or want anything to do with her. This puppy upset our entire household. She was such a challenge!

It was a long, but worthwhile road but we made it through. Lots of training; lots of exercise; and lots of patience. And the reward? My youngest daughter ended up bonding with this dog. They were inseparable. The dog slept with my daughter every night. A happy ending ... except ...

During the biting phase which had not really abated much by 10 months, I insisted on full bloodwork. Even though she didn't fit the profile, her bloodwork came back as hypothyroid. As soon as she was started on Soloxine, EVERYTHING changed. Her temperament evened out ... she stopped biting, she was easier to train ... it was a transformation.

Other health issues followed, and we lost her at the young age of 7. I have never regretted sticking by this puppy. The lessons she taught us were invaluable. She still sleeps with my daughter, as her ashes are in a little pine box on a shelf in my daughter's bedroom. Yes, the lessons our puppy from h*ll taught us.

I really feel your pain. Not all puppies are like ours; I think they are truely the exception. Puppies that followed our special girl have been typical in every way. I just wanted to share our story to let you know that in our case, we ended up with a dog that everyone loved.

Jo-Anne

Personally, I think you're right. You do deserve a full refund. Some breeders, as you have read, believe that their puppies are perfect and that every owner is the root of all problems. Unfortunately, sometimes bad puppies happen just as bad children happen.

Get the biting issues documented by trainer and vet. Did you seek medical treatment for the bite? If so, get copies of that. Keep copies/records of your communications w. the breeder.

Take the money and run.

OP You are not to blame nor is the puppy or the breeder. For some odd reason your chemistry and the pups just isnt working out.It happens. I have worked with pups that were like this and it takes alot of being consistant. Over and over. They do turn out to be awesome dogs.Young children can not deal with this.I consider your children young. Sounds like this pup needs a firm hand. You need alot of confidence. You can do it. But it really isnt the breeders fault. Its no ones fault. It happens.
Best of luck

She is saying that she would rather sale this puppy than send it back to her and I think that is great. Just as some breeders say refund the money and get your puppy back, you dont want them having that puppy and so on. I am with this buyer I would not want to send a puppy back to someone that does not want him. As much as I think it is great that you would want to find him a better home I am always sad when this kind of thing happens. I think it does fall on both of you that this puppy will be sent from home to home at such a young age. There are breeders and buyers that treat animals like they are disposible when they are too much to deal with or have no use to them

OP, New puppy owner, saw how this puppy acted at breeder's, I think she said. Time to move on--send puppy back, take what she can, and move on. How can anyone guarantee how someone will raise another being? This reminds me of the person with the 9 mo old show prospect--not yet a champion-- that wanted full refund and all expenses, including normal maintenance, paid back. Sometimes we just make mistakes, have to own up to it, and move on. OP seems overly concerned with the money, with being right, and with making a big fuss. I find it odd that after all this training she didn't know how to deal with pup, as they leap and grab and hang on their dam's necks, too, then grow up to be mellow! Makes me question the training. Frankly, I am not sure that, since her vet has passed the puppy on health, that it is not all about the money after buyer's remorse and just changing mind about the whole puppy thing. Some things are not adding up. Somehow we are not getting the whole picture. Did OP meet the dam? Meet maybe even the sire? Puppies don't come trained and well behaved, and all of them act out sometimes--just like most of the other people's children at school. Something is not adding up. Throwing gasoline on her fire isn't helping her or the puppy. She is at the end of her rope and needs to send the puppy back. If, IFF, she believes the puppy is not right, having OP selling him to someone else isn't right either, for she is admittedly novice, and cannot be expected to handle that. Besides, that may be a violation of contract.

I am sorry for your troubles, and sorry for everyone involved. Who is your trainer? Something sounds familiar.Please search this website for Volhard or for her URL, then, if it comes up, click on whole thread? Granted, many use Volhard method and test, but this might be the third pup I've heard of not fitting in with one northern NJ trainer who otherwise is well liked. Then again, it might not be anyone related at all. Sometimes dogs don't fit the trainers OR the families, and folks lack patience after high expectations. I am sorry for your troubles, and sorry for everyone involved. A sad situation, and probably no one can be totally right. I wish you a peaceful resolution to this problem. It will probably be a relief to have him back where you got him.

I do not want to be "right",I want to do what is right- and it is not all about the money. I never told you how much I spent already in private lessons and vet work up, I am not looking for a penny of that back. I gave you the whole picture.
What is sad is that some of you are trying to fuel a fire that does not exist.
I merely posted to try and see this from your side.
I did not come upon a decision to get rid of or dispose of a pup because he is too much work-that is just absurd. As stated I have exp. with dogs/pups and in fact took in an "aggressive" Great Dane before being married and worked with him until he was able to be social. Would I have put him with kids-NO
I met the dam, no sire on premise-I questioned this boys apparent behavior issues as he was a little off on visits but the breeder told me it was due to all the new people, smells etc. I trusted her, my mistake.
As I said, I do not blame her at all, any puppy is subject to the roll of the genetic dice.
After all (and even before) this training I do know how to deal with him however, that will NOT change his innate behavior-just like some dogs are born with higher pack drive or prey drive etc. I merely brought in an outside expert who does nothing but that for a profession to see if I was reading this pup wrong-it was after that person spent 3 weeks giving many things a try that the advice was to return him. Not that he was "unworkable" but that he was not the type of pup to be put in a home with young kids.
There is no contract stating he needs to go back to the original breeder-what does that tell you?
Please don't judge me, as I said I came here just to see it thru different eyes-what a view I was given.

Having read all these posts and everyone's opinions .. really this is NOT a good fit, for WHATEVER reason. Honestly - the breeder should be taking the puppy back, refunding the purchase price, and rehoming the little tyke. How irresponible not to. The family should move on (sorry for the heartbreaking experience - how sad for your kids to have to part with the puppy) and purchase a puppy or older dog from another breeder. End of story - ie THE RIGHT THING TO DO - STEP UP BREEDER.

I agree, the breeder should take the puppy back and refund 100% of the money. That's what I would do, especially since it hasn't been a month yet.

However, this just goes to show that even though you THINK you did your homework, you missed some crucial points when picking your breeder. Put it down in your notebook on what to do better next time, but unfortunately, you were duped by a lousy breeder claiming to be reputable. It happens all the time.

If you really can't make the situation work, I would send the pup back and get what you can out of the breeder and learn your lesson on the next pup.

I unfortunately can't be of any help on the behavioral issues since between all the dogs I have bought (from BYB's too in the early days) to the dogs I have bred, no one has had problems. No biting problems, no temperment problems, no food agression. I have had harder puppies to handle...our first lab bit me until he was a year (never my husband) to the pup that ate everything in sight unless he was tied to me for 200% supervision.

I guess as a breeder that would be ask to take a pup back( and I have) I would have to say to OP please come and let me see whats happening. Evaluate and try to correct the problem.After all the breeder must have experience. Hopefully. In other words let me help you. Did the breeder offer any advice or help?

"I don't want him going back to her as it appears I am more bonded to him after only 3 weeks than she is after 8.I want him to have a good life and really don't want to make trouble for the breeder. He is beautiful and deserves to be loved for who he is and not resented for what he is not."

I couldn't agree more with you. Now the challenge is to find a home that will be a good fit for him, and peace of mind for you.

FWIW, If this breeder is a member of the New Jersey Federation of Dog clubs and is listed in their directory, they have an obligation to have an contract that "will ensure that the breeder will be contacted whenever an owner can no longer keep a dog at any time in the dog's life and it will be the obligation of the breeder to assist in the placement or disposition of the dog."

It seems like this breeder of the pup does not really want to take it back when they are telling you to ship it off to another breeder. It sounds like the breeder of this pup is looking for ways to not have to take this pup back by only offering half the refund and telling you to send it to another breeder. Most breeders would insist that you bring the puppy back to them first. Maybe they know this puppy is a challenge and they don't want to deal with it. I would not ship the puppy to another breeder. It will just get shuffled around and it will not help the pup. If you have the resources and ability to rehome the puppy yourself that is certainly an option, but you also have to be willing to take it back if it is not the right fit. You might want to think about it and maybe take it back to the original breeder. I also would look into the local rules regarding breeders and returning a puppy for the full refund.

There is a puppy lemon law in the state of N.J. You might want to contact them. The lemon law works for 6 mo.from when you purchased the puppy.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/press/pets.htm

I am not taking sides, it could be the puppy (not properly socialized and placed by the breeder) it could be you (unrealistic expectations), but at 11 weeks old I would absolutely refund full price and resell the pup. The fact that your breeder is not demanding the puppy be returned to be resold and placed in a new home speaks volumes.

There is always small claims court.

You may wish to write this question to www.leerburg.com. I don't agree with all their advice but they specialize in helping owners treat aggressive dogs. If all their posts are true, they've had some great success. I wrote them once about a shy dog and received some unusual but veryworkable advice which really fit my shy girl.

From all the postings, it sounds like you know what to expect from a puppy, and how to deal with not so ideal situations.
If your breeder is worth at least a penny, and the puppy has a severe problem, he/she should return the money, all of it.
In my case I would not put another puppy in the hands of someone that came back with a problem like this, just in case the problem is the people and no the puppy. Sorry, but you might not be prepare to accept the any puppy will bite your kids, no matter what.
I would return the money and keep the puppy for evaluation. If the agressiveness is a serious problem, I would put him to sleep for his own sake.
Sad stories like this just happen, It might no be anybody's fault.

I think all us breeders should take note. It really doesn't matter why, but the bottom line is that this is not a good match. If any of us find ourselves in this situation, we owe it to the family to take the dog back. it doesn't matter why. I personally would refund the money, in full. And, since I probably wouldn't have a replacement puppy available at that time, since I only have one litter on the ground at a time, I would talk to one of my breeder friends and arrange for them to buy another puppy. There are 2 sides to every story, and then there's the truth, and the OP should return the puppy, as hard as it is since you've bonded, and whether or not you get the full refund, because it's not a good fit. The puppy will do fine. Aren't most of us willing to take a dog back at any time?????

I don't care what my contract says. If I was presented with this problem, I would give a full refund and take the puppy back immediately. Any breeder that would not do that is irresponsible.

Return the puppy and receive whatever refund that is offered. Why continue to keep the puppy in your home when you are so unsatisfied with him? Let him go. Chalk it up to experience and move on.

It would be hard but I would return the puppy. Just alot of work that might never give you the right fit. You have already tryed alot. You deserve a full refund. What kind of breeder would not take the puppy back. Someone in it for the money for sure. Send her some of these notes. Maybe it would concern her that her kennel name might come out. I can tell you, we would not think much of her. And I do remember someone with a roughdy puppy and hope she did not just pass it along. You just have not had the pup long enough for it to be your fault.

There you go. Enough has been said on this subject. Alot of views. But this sums it up. Well said. you got to move on.

Your call name here "no spring chicken" would imply you've been around quite awhile..not sure then why you reacted so immaturely.
I did not "argue" I merely "conversed" with the panel of posters-that is allowed isn't it? I replied with answers to questions and explanations to accusations.
We do live in America and just because I asked to see it from your side does not mean I asked to be dictated to.
No, it doesn't make me feel better to hear your silly statement-this was never about winning because no one in this situation "wins". It is sad for all involved.
I never blamed the breeder nor called them unscrupulous-those are your words perhaps coming from your life exp.
Yes, I did think I should get a full refund BUT, that is precisely why I posted, I'm not sure what the "norm" is among the breeders world-if all had responded that this is common practice then my thoughts were wrong and I would have had my answer. However, it seems everyone had a different take depending on the morals of the breeder. Yet, many did feel that a full refund wasn't about money or being right, it was about doing the right thing.
It's sad that you see only ONE option to a problem, I hope that you can start to look at life and people differently and start to look thru the eyes of compassion instead of judgment. If you can not see that life is imperfect and sometimes situations arise due to no one being at fault and that all involved just need to work towards an agreeable solution than you still have much to learn about life. Maybe you are not such an old soul after all.
And please, if you are going to respond do so without sarcasm..of course all puppies bite-I will give you that affirmation..

New owner, I understand your frustration with this forum, but the reality is that you can't expect good advice from an anonymous forum. Sometimes you get good advice, but often you don't, and even more often you can't tell the difference on the surface from the good and the bad.

What matters is the agreement you have with the breeder, regardless of what anyone else does or says.

What also matters is the well-being of both the puppy and your children, regardless of what anyone else does or says.

So go back to these two fundamental ideas and decide for yourself what works in this situation.

Thank you "Perspective"..I will do just that.
This has been a learning exp. for me, I will not post anymore nor probably visit this site after this-it was a place I came for unbiased opinions. I did not realize that being a breeder and perhaps having faced this very situation or those similar with pet people (and I'm sure everyone of you could write a book) that opinions were bound to be jaded.
I also did not imagine that some would not understand the difference between puppy biting (normal) and "bite inhibition"-big difference.
To no spring chicken, in the future try not to be so angry, let your kindness shine thru because I'm sure deep down you are a good person. Having the last word isn't always as important as putting on paper words with lasting meaning.
I sincerely do thank all of you for taking the time to respond, regardless of what your responses were- you still took the time to give advice to a stranger-that says volumes about you all. We will never all see things eye to eye but I appreciate all your views and expertise.
I too wish all of you continued success and luck-thanks again.

OMG - New Puppy Owner - you take the cake for sarcasm and attitude. Good luck getting any money back - and please explain what happened to the next breeder you talk to for a puppy. We'll know it's you and politely refuse.

First of all... REturn the puppy. It is obviously not the right fit for your family. If you aren't happy, I assure you the puppy isn't either. The breeder should, IMO, refund full purchase price. I know I would in a heartbeat. This puppy would be a good puppy in the right hands/right home. You need a reserved baby.

OK.. this thread is huge so I don't know if this has been said yet or not but how old are the children? Children have a way of exciting puppies and can cause them to go into overdrive. A puppy that isn't given 'plenty' of downtime(naps) will become too stimulated. A puppy w/ high prey drive(which is probably what yours is) isn't going to sit there and allow young children to 'pat his head' or to even to 'stroke it'...The arm/hand is going UP n DOWN...UP n DOWN... I would want to go after that hand too! : )
The puppy you need for your family is a very reserved one(equates lack of confidence) and even still, this type baby needs to be taught bite inhibition as well as other things too. He's just an easier baby to deal w/ and he isn't one to challenge as much.

Puppies need to be taught bite inhibition. This is not something they just know. Mother teaches it, breeders teach it, siblings teach it~ Mothers left w/ their litters teach them oh so much. Breeders who interact w/ their puppies teach them so much too.

Please.. return the baby and better luck in your next breeder and knowing exactly the disposition of the puppy you are seeking...This was clearly not a good match.

ps: The reserved puppy will not be 'in your face/at your shoes' upon visit. He'll be the one that stands back and when approaced to be picked up, will want to go behind the chair, etc. This type babies make outstanding pets!

I am deeply ashamed by many of the responses to this poster. If those of you who were so disrespectful, and full of blame rather than offers of assistance spoke to a person this way at a dog show, you could and should be brought to a bench hearing for unsportsmanlike conduct.

If this woman returns her puppy, I'd be amazed if she got another labrador. You've made us all look terrible.

I'm not surprised by the reaction of some on this post. I've been contacted by a couple of puppy owners, whose pups have been diagnosed with severe TVD, their breeders too have basically told them it's not coming from their dog and have offered no support, in one case didn't return a phone call or any response to a certified letter sent by the puppy owner from her vet.

To those breeders who turn your back on the folks that end up with a problem pup, either bred by you or out of your stud dogs, I suggest you offer more support, there are other breeders fielding those calls and now know who to stay away from as we do ask who the dogs are out of, interestingly there's been a consistent dog in the pedigree

Well, that's just not playing fair. If you know of a dog consistently producing TVD, why not say so. If I give you my email address will you tell me so I know not to breed to him?

Sorry, don't think it's my place to give out information, other than to say be sure to use a dog with an echo, not just an auscultation, if you use an echoed dog you won't have to worry about breeding to the dog I've run across. Granted there's still so much unknown when it comes to TVD, but an echo is the best tool we have.

Okay - we'll play 20 questions. Is this a heavily-used stud dog? Been around awhile? East Coast/West Coast??? And we wonder why we have all these problems in our breed - people are just too coy with important information!

I'm not being coy, I'm not going to play 20 questions, use an echoed dog and you won't have to worry about using the dog I referred to. I am done with this post.

well... this is why health problems in this breed are are increasing. why don't we lay it all on the table and deal with it. it should not be taken personally and breeders should all work together to try to find out where diseases such as TVD come from. we all know TVD can come from two echo cleared parents also. but most breeders keep their TVD offspring a BIG secret and lots of breeders refuse to even use echo doppler as ofa doesn't yet require it.
shame on you. if nothing else do it for the good of this wonderful breed. and just once put yourself in the shoes of the family who loves this pet only to find out it has TVD. requiring visits to the cardiologist and meds or worse losing them early. think about it

New puppy owner I really feel for you, but mostly I am disappointed in you for letting "the breeders" get to you. I too am just merely a "pet owner" who thought what better people to ask a question about my new labrador pup. It started out great - had a few really helpful responses from the truly reputable breeders then BHAM - the feeding frenzy began as it inevitably always does when a lowly pet owner dares to invade this class-act forum.

My question pertained to normal size of a non BYB lab and also correct time for neutering. Great questions put forth to those who would have the knowledge to help me. Only took a few minutes for some so called breeder to advise me to get off this forum and go to the a forum for pet owners. LOL. This so called breeder actually sent me to ask my questions from pet owners with BYB labradors. Now if that wasn't a stupid way to enhance the breed, I don't know what was. My guess is he would have preferred this scenario. "Duh, Joe Blow what is the best time to neuter my pup? Oh you say 4 mos, ok thanks so much." What kind of idiots are lurking here, that is my question.

Since then I have never posted another "question" to this forum. Just not worth the ignorance that goes with the good info. But I do read everything for information on the breed and honestly just for plain old entertainment because believe me these people will entertain you. This is truly a mean spirited bunch which is why I love it so much.

You had over 70 posts to your question and one person, ok 2 counting me, had the guts to post their name. What are these "breeders" so afraid of?? Names like No Spring Chicken. More like Chicken #@*# if you ask me.

I thought your post was great. I have only owned one lab pup and he was my first pup in over 20 years. Brought him home at 8 weeks. On day 2 he threw up at 11pm and I laid on the couch with him and he slept on my belly all night and was a sweet baby until 3 weeks later then he started nipping. I just corrected him a few times and it was over. Yes he got rowdy once in a while and would nip. THAT IS A NORMAL PUPPY!!!! And no- he was not the timid one in the litter like that one breeder suggusted you look for - he was the donminant one. Goes to show you some on here have no idea what they are talking about. Yours is not normal. It is something we expect to get from a BYB. Bet my life this is not the first pup this breeder has had with this same problem. They knew when they sent him home to you he was not normal.

You simply asked advice from this forum and of course some of these whacked so-called breeders attacked as always. I guarantee you these cowards are the same nasty responders you see on post after post they only change their scared little names over and over so no one will ever figure out who they are. Because I suspect a lot of them "not all" are BYB's in disguise. Why else would one be ashamed to post their name?

Most of the responses were pure sarcasm and could not possibly have come from an intelligent professional breeder. They went for blood because you struck a nerve in them. They don't like buyers who expect to get a quality pup with the proper temperment for top dollar. They got their money from you and they ran like hell.

When I bought my pup I was fortunate enough to spend time with both the dam and the sire and loved them both. In fact I was able to see all the breeder's dogs. Every one had a beautiful temperment. Very calm and gentle.
I was lucky. I didn't know a lot about the breeders in my area but just made a choice and all went well.
You just were not so lucky. The fact that this breeder has not helped you says it all and those on this forum that attacked you I will bet anything they produce an inferior quality labrador and also wouldn't stand behind their own dogs and if they say different I wouldn't believe them. Who can believe anything people say that are too ashamed to use their name?

Anyway just don't let the inferior breeders get under your skin. Keep reading the posts but always remember that you can't ask intelligent questions here and expect professional advice without taking all the whacko attacks that are sure to come with it.
Most of them just do not exhibit the professionalism one would expect from such a forum. Where was the guy who sent me to the pet owner forum when you needed him?? You sadly would have been better off and probably received better advice and way way more compassion from those mere pet owners If you don't believe me just go back through the archives or any day for that matter and read all the nasty posts. Hell they even turn on each other most days. Get rid of your BYB pup and search for a quality labrador like I have.

Best of luck to you and your family. And don't forget to tune in daily to watch these vultures go at it. LOL
Sorry to all of you reputable breeders on this forum - just a shame there are so few of you. But I really think that those of you who truly love the breed would be ashamed of this forum for the way they treat people seeking advice.
Let the feeding frenzy continue..... Gobble up those info seeking pet owners and spit them out. That will surely help advance the breed of the Labrador Retiever.
Like I stated earlier - class act forum.

I totally agree with you. This is the most cut- throat bunch of people I have ever seen. I am new to Labs but not new to the sport of dogs. I think it should be required to put real names on posts. I wonder how freely people would be with their "expertise" then.

Please don't judge all of the respected long time breeders that might read this list and reply to a real problem. There have become in the last year some very ugly persons to be on this list. If you say black they say white. If you say something was good they say bad. They are just not educated on the breeding and keeping of Labs so they jump in with ugly remarks to be notice. Like in all life there are just a very few, very unhappy people. They are a sad bunch. There poor dogs. Feel sorry for them too.

I have seen forums where you didn't have to use your full name but at least you had to register under one name and then use it.
And I think when they start attacking someone they change their name several times within the same thread. That way it appears that someone is agreeing with them or if they don't like someone they can beat up on them over and over under a different name. LOL
Maybe only one person really disagreed with New Puppy Owner and they made it appear as though there were tons of them. I said it was entertaining.
Hang on I gotta get some popcorn.

The thing you should try to remember is that many of the people who frequent here are not very educated, nor are they very intelligent so when they read a well-written post they feel the need to attack it. Lots of these folks are engaged in a hobby that's basically a talent show/beauty contest for dogs and they take it all very personally because they could never enter or win a talent contest or beauty contest on their own. AND many of them hate children, so they take any opportunity to attack someone who puts the safety/happiness/welfare of their children ahead of the dog. Nice bunch o' folks.

I'm so sorry when I see puppy buyers and new breeders ask questions on this forum, which is an embarrassment to all breeders. But you should be aware that many breeders themselves have been attacked on this forum and post anonymously because they just don't want to deal with all the crap.

Responsible wrote "well... this is why health problems in this breed are are increasing. why don't we lay it all on the table and deal with it. it should not be taken personally and breeders should all work together to try to find out where diseases such as TVD come from."

I second that, as the owner of a Lab with a great show pedigree and TVD. All of my dreams for this puppy are down the drain, she cannot even do a long walk and every day could very well be her last. A long time obedience/agility trialer I know does not know where to find a new prospect, there is so much secrecy when it comes to health issues that are getting more prevalent.

Why do so many people on here "look down on" pet owners? I don't understand it, nor do I understand much of the pettiness that surfaces on this forum. Who cares if someone used "there" when they should have used "their" or said "confirmation" rather than "conformation"? I was just on the website of one of the breed's highest profiles and they made the same spelling mistake .. don't see anyone publically reviling them.

I agree that people should have to use their real names when posting on here - perhaps then they'd be more polite.

If it weren't for the folks like the New Puppy Owner who started this post, etc, who would you sell your litters to? And how is this type of behaviour doing anything positive for this breed that we all say we love so much? Come on, folks ...

This is not a good fit - the breeder should do the ethical thing and take the puppy back, refund the purchase price and allow these folks to move on and find a dog that suits.

"This is not a good fit - the breeder should do the ethical thing and take the puppy back, refund the purchase price and allow these folks to move on and find a dog that suits."

I agree.

To the OP, we are not all nasty. Some of you are an embarrassment to the breed.

Dear OP,
I have to agree it may just be bad chemistry. This is not saying your family is at fault or the dog is bad, sometimes it just happens.

I sold the sweetest pup to a wonerful family with a 5 year old boy, she called a week later to tell me how aggressive the puppy was. After trying to figure it out for a week I told her to bring the pup back and get her refund.
while she was here I noticed the 5 year old had a very high squeal and when the pup came around he flapped his arms and squealed. The pup stated jumping and biting...BINGO, she could not see it but it was obvious.
Anyhow the pup was placed in another home two days later and the family loves her, cant tell me enough how sweet she is.
Sometimes its just the wrong match.
good luck with your decision.

to all on the table. thanks for your support. i too have a wonderful puppy with great pedigree and show potential that has TVD. in fact i did my research before choosing my breeder. for those who haven't lived in our shoes, i hope you don't have to. i just think of the potential that could have been, and a life that may be cut short, but try to enjoy each day we have. TVD breaks the hearts of those who love the dogs just as much as the dogs that are afflicted. there is so much more we need to know. i am hoping breeders can break their "code of silence" and share tvd puppy pedigrees and provide a data base. this isn't a personal vendeta to harm a breeding program or black mark a stud or dam it is to save the future of this breed and prevent those of us living with a TVD labrador more tears. isn't breeding first and foremost for the love and betterment of the breed?
something to think about.

Okay - what's your puppy's pedigree? Where can we discuss what dogs produce without getting ripped to shreds? We're not lying or talking out of school, we're discussing health issues that we've SEEN! I for one produced a TVD puppy in my first litter - I'll be more than happy to reveal the sire and his pedigree. My bitch had a color doppler echo after the puppy's problem was discovered (this was over 10 years ago) - she cleared (vet school cardiology department did the exam).

Just because a dog/bitch cleared a color doppler/echo does NOT mean that they can not, or did not, produce TVD.

Wow...didn't this bring out the best and the worst.
It is quite clear from so many responses and later posts that drifted off topic to TVD that denial is a pre-requisite for some who claim the name "breeder".
Deny that OP happened to just get a pup with atypical lab temp. my gosh-that could NEVER happen. It HAS to be the fault of the pet owner..if she had posted there was a problem like a previous thread we would have told her to hire a professional for eval..oh that's right-she already did that and still was to blame.
Deny that her breeder should own up and take back the pup and refund the money-we all stand behind our pups-right.
Deny ever knowing that TVD does exist in certain lines..especially not yours.
Denial at it's best-previous posts on the epilepsy research project that can not even meet the criteria of 25 sibling pairs because I'm sure no one has that in their lines either.
If we keep up like this we are bound to see more posts from "new puppy owners or pet people" asking how/why did this happen and the best we'll have to reply is by placing fault everywhere but at home.
This was disheartening.....but eye opening.
To the few voices of reason that replied, thanks for showing that there are still some honest people in this world-the one we call the dog world.

How many of you guarantee temperament?

Either written or implied, all of us should. Or we shouldn't be breeding. It's that plain and simple!!!!

I sell many pups to families with children, this is where I believe Labradors belong. When the parents came for the visit the boy was not like this, he was quiet. The family was knowledgeable and very nice and seemed like a good fit.
I wish it would have worked out for them, but it didnt. 99% of my placements work, the 1% I take back, refund and re home.
BTW it was not the puppies personality, she went into a home with 3 kids, 7, 9 , 12 and is doing wonderfully.

As a NJ breeder, I am familiar with most of the breeders from the 2 NJ clubs. I personally do not know of any who would not gladly take a puppy back. Puppies are not all that hard to place in this state. And the going price is anywhere from $1200 to $1800 and up.

Several posts recommend you cut your losses, return the pup and take the 50% refund. It makes me wonder who exactly is making this recommendation. Could just be your breeder. It would not be the first time one person replied with different names. I personally feel using this situation to get 1-1/2 times the usual price for a puppy is unethical.