When looking at pedigrees for a potential breeding, how far do you look back? Also, doubling up on dogs in a pedigree further back, does that seem to be successful or are the genes too diluted? Wondering what your experience has been, not necessary what the theory is!

I have dogs and kennels from the past that I really like what they have produced. So when I look at a pedigree I want to see these dogs.
I like a nice line breeding and there are certain lines that seem to mesh well with my lines so that helps me decide if it is a pedigree I would be interested in...with that being said, dont just breed to the paper make sure you like to dog as well.

Great question. First thing, nice to see paper, but MUST KNOW about all the dogs and as many close relatives(siblings of those on paper) as possible. Thoroughly know..........

What I look for is 1) THERE MUST BE a consistent kennel throughout pedigree 2)if there is a dog in 4-10 generations that is multiple times, what were the plus and minus sides of this and 3) do those lines mesh with what I have, seen through proven crossing by other successful breeders.

Every pedigree has skeletons and you better know them so you can pick your poison so to speak.

It is so great to have the newer tools to help make breeding decisions and being able to actually see the dogs in person is very valuable.

Good luck, and rely on mentors who know all the dogs from 10-40 years ago! INVALUABLE.

Three generations is all you need to look. after that, the amount of genes is so tiny it matters little.

Read some books on genetics and see what i mean.
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JMHO after looking at some lovely 3 generation pedigrees that produced some not so lovely health issues, 3 generations is not sufficient. I personally look at 6-7 generations and I look to see what else has been produced 'laterally' too.

6 - 7 generations. Do you play the lotto every week? The odds of any genes making it through are miniscule at that point. Do the math. You are talking GREAT, GREAT GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, GREAT -GRANDPARENTS.

You might have a better chance of hitting the lotto.

wow.

Yes, you are absolutely right I am a lotto player and I win...how did you guess? Guess that little secret is out now!
I do understand both the math and the biology of looking at a pedigree...however, until we thoroughly understand the transmission of TVD (just as a single health example) I personally will continue to look beyond 3 generations, per my previous post.
Everyone who breeds has to decide for themselves how they make their decisions, what risks they are... and are not willing to take. This is simply my process based on my experience.

Three generations is what most think, but IF the fourth generation is closely linebred, you better take a good look at that too.
For instance on my stud dog , he looks like he might be loosely linebred on Arnold just by looking at the the first three generations , but the fourth generation he is actually doubled up on Arnold on both top and bottom. That matters! And he stamps his get, so consistantly it is amazing. I'm not using my name today , for obvious reasons.So when you go to a website , LOOK at the puppy pictures MOST stud dog owners place there as a representative of what their dog is doing !

I sure look back further back than 3 generation. I have 4 gen. here and can sure see what still shows up. Thankfully some good traits, head shapes, intelligence, small things that you can see having them all right in front of you. So seeing the good passed down, you know the bad could also be. Think how a chocolate pup pops out from way back in the pedigree of all black or yellows. Its carried. And yes look at siblings and offsprings from any of them you can.
Good luck with your studys.

Having the knowledge of what is in a pedigree (as far back as you can get) is invaluable. Only considering the first three generations as having any importance or influence is ignorant. Study the vertical pedigree, of course,, but as Susan pointed out, in many health issues (TVD being a prime example) you need to study the "lateral" pedigree as well. Educate yourself as to what the siblings have produced!!!!

Pardon my ignorance, as I'm new to all this also, but what is a "lateral" pedigree? OP's question is something I've been wondering about, too.

to posters who say only 3-4 generations matter-why so much epilepsy still in the breed. As we see there are not even 25 sibling pairs for research (hmmmm) so where is it coming from? Breeders have always said it can skip many generations....so, is it skipping or is it being hidden in the 3 generation pedigree?
Also, paper pedigrees to a new comer means little-it is the eyes of those who have been in the breed for years, who have hands on the dogs whos names appear and can tell you what they saw, felt and know what they produced-both the good and the bad.

I used the word 'Lateral' when I probably should have used the word 'Peripheral'. An example is same sire bred to a different bitch, what did they produce and do the pedigrees of the bitches have any common ancestry or not. Same goes for sibling of the bitch you are considering bred to different dogs. In general it is a 'wide view' look at the potential offspring possibilities. I personally look from both a "Yippee" maybe I can introduce this wonderful characteristic, to "Uh Ohh" here is a potential land mine...do I want to run that risk, when I look at pedigrees prior to breeding.

I can definitely see Susan in your males what you are referring to. B*tches not so much, But I can see where you are coming from.

It is nice to see someone actually talk about their practice, and you can see it. Like I see here.

Rather than the person talking up a storm w/no proof.

Keep up the great homework

Debbie, Thanks! For good reasons about 5 years ago my whole breeding program changed rather drastically. The boys, and some other offspring who are not up on my website are the result. There are many other breeders whose "hand in the breed" I admire whose opinions had an impact. Does this qualify for "old dog can learn new tricks?"

Play for me too. Because looking a the 0.02% impact on 7th generation is a longshot for sure.

And to the poster calling this ignorant- take a look at Dr. George Padgett's book before you go around calling people ignorant.

The most important thing we can all do is share the good and the not so good things that lurk in our pedigrees-be it in the first or the sixth generation. So many undesirable traits are expressed through a multitude of genetic contribution without complete penetrance. This allows these problems to reappear after many generations. And, believe me, if it is there it will eventually bite you in the butt.

Unfortunately not many want to talk about the negatives that our dogs might bring to the genetic table so much gets swept under the rug. Genetic testing, of course, can help us with much but complete honesty-with ourselves and others-is the other part of the answer.

Gee, I wish people would read. If you go back far enough in a pedigree you will often see a particular dog over and over again. Going strictly by a numerical value (which is virtually meaningless in terms of the potential heritable consequence in many cases, such as autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance)you would have to mutliply that particular dog's contribution by as many times as his/her name appears, and in increasing significance and increased weight when his/her name appears in more recent generations.

Dr George Padgett's Book "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases" is interesting. I have read it, and I would recommend it to others as well. I am also fortunate to have an in-house biologist as a reference, so I count myself pretty lucky. However, just picking TVD as an example disease, you will note that in his book the mode of inheritance for TVD is unknown.

Hypothetically, if the mode of inheritance is dominant with incomplete penetrance then it stands to reason that it could exist in a pedigree for multiple generations without exhibiting phenotypically. What triggers it? Is it the doubling, or tripling or more of known producers in a pedigree? Would pedigree knowledge of multiple generations allow you make better choices, specifically for this particular inherited disease? If the answers to any of these posed questions is yes, then perhaps a multi-generational pedigree of more than 3 generations has value. JMHO we are talking about much more than "can I correct a topline or get better turn of stifle" when you look at a pedigree.

As breeders we "cause" essentially every litter we breed to happen. We choose the stud dog, we choose the bitch, and we choose the pedigree combination. We are then responsible for our choices, good - bad - or ugly.

So as another poster pointed out, being candid about what has occurred, and not pointing fingers at people who are truly seeking information, nor pointing fingers at people who have unintentionally produced problems, along with sharing information thoughtfully can only help the breed as we seek to make informed and good choices in our breeding programs.

(((eyes rolling backward))) does this mean I should or shouldn't play the lotto?

I really enjoy looking at pedigrees and had several of my dogs worked out to 12 generations or more. If you do that, you find the same names occurring over and over. My dogs are descended from Lockerbie Brian Boru, Sandylands Mark and other dogs who go back to Sandylands and Blaircourt. Back in the 10th generation or so was a dog named Poppleton Lieutenant. I didn't know anything about this dog. Imagine my surprise to realize that he accounted for 12.5% of one of my dog's pedigree. He was WAY back but theoretically could have about the same influence as a great grandfather. In fact, if he embodied traits that breeders were selecting for, he could have a even greater influence. After I made this discovery, I was very pleased to find a picture of him. This dog grabbed my attention, not because he was so prevalent in my pedigrees; other dogs like Sandylands Tweed of Blaircourt, Ruler of Blaircourt and Diant Juliet occurred over and over, too. But I knew something about those dogs; I had never even seen a picture of Poppleton Lieutenant. Susan's point about sleeping deleterious recessives is well taken, but it's not the only reason to look at pedigrees.

5 generations

Agree!!!

I find it really interesting to read through all the pedigrees and even find some pics of the dogs that have been very famous and contributed so much to our modern day programs. But as a new person to the breed where do you start?!
It's SO hard to know who to breed to or take a chance on when you've barely been able to meet many of the stud dogs out there, let alone meet the "old greats" or know what they're strongly inherited features were. I hear the term "stamped their get" all the time, or I hear more seasoned breeders say, "oh I think "that" (be it whatever trait...) came from so and so's line".... how do you learn these things?

If you never got to meet (and actually get a good look at them and or their immediate relatives) these dogs 3-5 generations back how do you know what they're contributing? Inquiring minds want/need to know!

mentor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be nice....breeders near me are retiring, kennel blind and have not used an outside stud in YEARS. Guess I'll have to keep learning the hard way :(