I bred and co-own a bitch with a great gal.......she did OFA pre-lims.....those were good / clear.......bitch recently turned 2 yrs old and finals were done............results were Good/clear.....which was what had been expected from the Ortho Vet that did the views...........SO GET THIS!!! the owner called OFA curious as to the 3 Vets findings that rated the bitch....and.......they were Excellent.......Good and Fair...........so the "average rating" was Good.........how can we put faith in OFA when they have such differing opinions?
Penn-hip has been done and the results were what I'd consider to be a Good rating.......I am totally confused by this? Am really starting to question how accurate OFA is........thoughts???

OFA is opinions......... hopefully by competent ortho vets how take the time to really look.

I have been considering Penn Hip for my next few.

I had a dog come back fair, which surprised me since I thought the xrays looked better and so did the vet who did them. Called OFA to see what the 3 ratings were. One had said good, one had said fair, and one had said mildy dysplastic. After that I don't have much faith in OFA, it seems it just depends on who is looking at the xrays and there is no consistancy.

I don't believe in OFA what-so-ever.

That is why my 2 bitches that recently got evaluated, were done by an OVC Vet here in Canada.

I think.........from now on I'll do OFA pre-lims and Penn-hip and call it "good enough" My Ortho Vet is TERRIFIC........and I totally trust his opinion!

I have used OVC in the past as I like the fact that at 18 months they will give you a final report.


I feel / think OFA has gotten "worse" in the past several yrs and have little faith in their "opinions"
Sadly ...the difference between a "Fair" and a Good rating on a Stud dog means alot to folks that are "hunting" for the close to perfect male to use?

Anon 2----you just don't get the point. It's not always about "you" or "me." Sometimes we care about others who are going through the same experience.

OVC is not what it used to be either.

Sorry Anon2, yuo would be the one not understanding. I am the co-owner of the bitch in question here and its not the final rating that is so upsetting. We all all thrilled with the "Good". Its the 3 different ratings that are the issue. How can you maintain any concistancey (sp) with results all over the board. I guess we can be grateful that OFA doesn't read it 4 times so that we can get results back of an excellent, a good, a fair and a dysplastic. Then what would the average be??? I got the x-rays back too so i have them on file. The ortho vet that did them said they were a solid, good, not quite an excellent but no where near a fair.
I liked the penn hip results better and I am now not doing prelims through OFA at all. Just Penn hip and then OFA finals if i have to.

I also received a "Good"
The three grades were: Excellent, Good & Fair
I spoke to the Doc/Vet @ OFA and said that they gave my girl a good as he also looked at the films and felt that whoever read it was way off to give a a Fair on one of them..... I was told by my vet that they were excellent.... I am really thrilled that we received a "Good" but wonder who's reading these reports that they would be so off to give a Fair.

I agree, take the Good and run. Listen to your own vet so you have his opinion and what you get from OFA. Its all we have. I have more faith in it when breeding to an outside dog than Penn Hip. Sorry. JMO.

I have thought for years that they sometimes have the students read the films. How can board certified radiologists have such varying opinions of the same film? Don't think so. I don't see why we cannot accept an evaluation from a single radiologist and forget OFA altogether.

some people are doing that--sending them to a board certified radiologist to read and not to OFA. I have had several requests to do this and have sent them to Victor Rendano in NY. I always recommend Penn-Hip for people who are truly interested in the state of the hips they are producing--IMO it is a truer test of the facts.

Earlier this year, we had one come back Good and when I called to see what the three readings were - 2 Good and one was borderline. Ridiculous.

Had x-rays done on my bitch earlier this year. My vet, who is very experienced said they'd either be good or excellent. They came back mildly dysplastic. We waited a couple months and sent them in again. They came back as Good. My vet called OFA to ask what was going on and they said "it was just a difference of opinion of the panel that was reading them." I lost all faith in OFA. Their "difference of opinion" could mean the difference in washing a great, beautiful bitch out of the gene pool.

I for one will NEVER send in pre-lims again. Dr. Keller is the only person who reads pre-lims. I don't know how he got such power to do that. We are depending on one person to decide whether or not to keep a puppy. I have several occasions where the pre-lims have looked good and have come back borderline or dysplastic, only to be goods when the finals came in.

My understanding is that that is why people do PennHip.. OFA is just an opinion ..

Maybe if we weren't so quick to throw away dogs based on a prelim score, we wouldn't be in such an uproar about OFA. I also agree, the final result was a GOOD. Great. Have you got nothing better to do than call and find out what each assessment was? I don't see how that helps your breeding program. If you don't trust OFA, stop bitching and do Penn Hip. I for one have not had a bad result with OFA.

I used to know of a vet tech that everyone used to see in a part CA because that person could position any set of hips and get a passing clearance. So who's to blame there, the breeder, the vet tech or OFA?

I don't think positioning can cover up arthritic changes.

Got an OFA Fair. Called to see what the individual ratings were -- 1 Good, 1 Fair and 1 MODERATELY (not even mild) dysplastic. Ridiculous.

Why did you do that? It would be great if that is truly what happened to use it as proof that OFA needs
to change the way they do things. It used to take me 30 days to hear back. Now I get a Certificate in the mail in 2 weeks. Really, can it go from my vet to
3 vets and a printed Certificate to me in 2 weeks?

Ok, here are my thoughts. First everyone keeps saying that OFA has different “opinions”. It’s not supposed to be “Opinions”. These are trained people who are “qualified” to “read” x-rays. I don’t want their “opinion”, I want their professional “reading”. Plain and simple. DJD is either there or not, arthritis is either there or not. Hips are seated deeply or not.
In my case where I called, to find out the three different readings it was NOT to find fault with OFA, but in fact to see how “strong” the good rating was. After all if we are breeding to better the breed and to breed out these issues then we should always investigate, so that we have a full set of information. The Penn Hip results fell into the range of what I believe to be a “Good” so that makes me feel better.
The last dog I had OFA’d received a “good” and when I called all 3 ratings were “good”. I was over the moon with those results.
When I do prelims now I send everything to Dr. Kent Wallace, I think he is on Long Island. I have been very impressed with his reports.
I just don’t understand how 3 different radiologists can rate one dog an excellent a good and a fair.
That shows no consistency. Who is wrong, the radiologist what gave the dog the excellent or the radiologist that gave the dog the fair? That is the biggest question. So because of the inconsistency this dog will ONLY be bred to dogs with a strong history of good/excellent. Which I suppose is the goal anyway.

Answer me this, after years of breeding can't most of you look at an x-ray, maybe not elbows, but hips and see a problem ? It becomes pretty plain after a while. Not the Good or Fair, but very good hips look great at first glance. Bad also are quick to jump out at you. Know it is still up to who reads them at OFA and what they see that we don't. Vets are very willing to show you to learn.

***Have you got nothing better to do than call and find out what each assessment was? I don't see how that helps your breeding program. If you don't trust OFA, stop bitching and do Penn Hip. I for one have not had a bad result with OFA. ***


OMG.......Are you grumpy??? "Nothing better to do?" Well.....I think it is IMPORTANT to see the whole picture.........not just grab a "Good and run" with it! This bitch has a solid pedigree and I am not unhappy with her final rating BUT am NOT HAPPY to realize that OFA is so inconsitant!

I think it's important for "US" as Breeders to share and discuss the issues we are all dealing with
information and knowledge are power!!
Again..........I will continue to trust my Ortho Vets opinion and my own and will do Penn-hip on all my future prospects........will do OFA for elbows and prolly hips...at least for the pre-lims.

This has been an interesting thread....THANKS to all that have posted!!!

have a great day! HUG your dogs and appreciate your friends!!!!!!

"PennHIP recommends that the top 40% scores are the most appropriate for improving hips in a breed." NOT CORRECT

THIS is what it says on their certificates.

PennHIP does not make specific breeding recommendations. Selection of sire and dam for mating is the decision of the breeder.
NOTE: As a minimum breeding criterion, we propose that breeding stock be selected from the population of animals having hip laxity in the tighter half of the breed. (to the left of the median mark on the graph). Higher selection pressure equates to more rapid expected genetic change per generation.

By implementing selection based on passive hip laxity, we expect the breed average DI over the years to move toward tighter hip configuration, meaning lower hip dysplasia susceptibility.

Why don't we send the x-rays to different countries?, Canada, Europe, Mexico, Brasil, Argentina.

Look at the beautifull stud from Poland, he has the highest grading possible in Europe, in OFA fair, how could that be?, it's impossible that the same dog has the highest grading in Europe and Fair with OFA.

I think I'm going to do what the other lady did, I will send the same x-rays, with different names, six months appart.

My point of view is that the students are doing the work.

Hi all.. I, for one, do not do prelims.
I would always tell someone to not throw out that pup if you received less than stellar prelim rating. Why? Because while laxity is a factor in the rating of the films and it may be the reason for hips to get a fair or mild or borderline on a young large boned and loose dog, he can easily get a good at 2yr providing no DJD is seen from the early laxity due to the condition of the dog! It's not the competency of the reading panel but the condition of the dog.... Yes, condition of the dog(even adults change due to the condition and muscle tone) plays a huge role.

When you're told to resubmit in 6months but no DJD and in 6months still no DJD, your rating is improved.

I'm not saying all laxity is due to condition of the dog but I think many do not realize it can be in certain situations and you maybe throwing out your dogs too soon.

The problem as I see it is that we are trying to make breeding decision based on OFA results but if three people who are pros can't agree on the hip rating how can we properly use that information to breed better orthopedics. We'd like to believe that a dog that is "OFA excellent" has some of the best hips while a dog that is "OFA fair" has hips that are just okay. I personally appreciate the service that ofa provides because of the data accessible to us BUT I am not convinced that the ratings are exactly right so I have almost developed almost a "pass" or "fail" system in my own head. A dog is either dysplastic or not and I HOPE ofa can tell us that. But a fair is passing and should be free of dysplasia and I just don't have any idea whether a dog with a fair rating has any better hips than a dog who was fortunate enough to get an excellent rating. We'd all like a better system but it really does provide us a wealth of information and useful tool. But it is just a tool.

Of course, I'm not there seeing it but it makes sense to me that the three who are reading films aren't all sitting together doing so. They are doing it one at a time and reading them as how they see it. They don't converse w/ each other.

You(general term) don't always agree w/ someone else's opinions. One might think the acetabulum is a bit too shallow for h/her and another might think it's acceptable for an example. Some dogs just don't have good hips and laxity isn't the main factor in its rating you get.

I am not a PennHip fan. If I had a hip problem w/ laxity being an issue w/ DJD present at 2yrs in my dogs/line, then I'd probably consider utilizing this tool but I don't and laxity is not the only factor in grading hips.

Whatever you choose in keeping your program as sound as you can, be happy with your choice and over time you will have pretty consistent results and a high % of soundness in your program.

Thank you Sherry for the words of wisdom.
As a breeder who was threatened with a law suit and bad mouthed all over the country (and beyond) because of a puppy I sold who had prelim's too young that showed subluxation (NO DJD), I appreciate hearing your opinion on the subject.
I share the same opinion as you, and although I do do prelims most of the time, I do not throw out any dog unless there is clearly DJD.

It's a sad fact that some newbie's seem to think the sun rises and sets on OFA and they forget that xrays are subjective, on the day they are taken.

In my case, the OFA guidlines and readings were thrown at me like it was gospel when this happened.
All I could do is shake my head and wonder why suddenly one vets opinion had changed someones total outlook on this dog and caused it to immediately be deemed a defective pet by the powers that be OFA????
Instead of being an advocate for the dog, the person dumped any hope for it's show and breeding future right in the trash that day and began the witch hunt.

A few years back at Potomac, a representative from OFA gave one of the talks and one point that she drove across to everyone in the audience was to call OFA and ask for the results of your three readings to understand the definitive reading. A solid Good would be 3 goods, a solid Excellent would be 3 excellents. One thing that I think is important is that you pay the extra $5 to have your films returned to you. If your rating is not what you expected, bring those same radiographs to a specialist and have them read to confirm OFA's rating or give you a good reason to resubmit.

I own a boy who has hip dysplasia. At 9 months old he had moderate hip dysplaisa due to subluxation per the OFA... which according to OFA standards is not too young. I had 4 vets look at the x rays as well, all agreed that this boy would have significant DJD by age two. FOUR VETS... not just OFA. Since I did not go to college to be a licensed veterinarian, I trusted what the professionals told me. He still is part of my life and now has DJD with a very stiff hop gait at 18 months. I am proud I did the best I could do for my super boy, as he was first and foremost my family, not a show dog or a sperm machine.

Too bad I continue to be "hunted" even though I have long since moved on with my life. If others feel I am a horrible person for doing nothing more then standing up for myself and my boy's best interests, so be it

burnt

Thank you Sherry for the words of wisdom.
As a breeder who was threatened with a law suit and bad mouthed all over the country (and beyond) because of a puppy I sold who had prelim's too young that showed subluxation (NO DJD), I appreciate hearing your opinion on the subject.
I share the same opinion as you, and although I do do prelims most of the time, I do not throw out any dog unless there is clearly DJD.

It's a sad fact that some newbie's seem to think the sun rises and sets on OFA and they forget that xrays are subjective, on the day they are taken.

In my case, the OFA guidlines and readings were thrown at me like it was gospel when this happened.
All I could do is shake my head and wonder why suddenly one vets opinion had changed someones total outlook on this dog and caused it to immediately be deemed a defective pet by the powers that be OFA????
Instead of being an advocate for the dog, the person dumped any hope for it's show and breeding future right in the trash that day and began the witch hunt.

Sherry L. Anderson

Hi all.. I, for one, do not do prelims.
I would always tell someone to not throw out that pup if you received less than stellar prelim rating. Why? Because while laxity is a factor in the rating of the films and it may be the reason for hips to get a fair or mild or borderline on a young large boned and loose dog, he can easily get a good at 2yr providing no DJD is seen from the early laxity due to the condition of the dog! It's not the competency of the reading panel but the condition of the dog.... Yes, condition of the dog(even adults change due to the condition and muscle tone) plays a huge role.

When you're told to resubmit in 6months but no DJD and in 6months still no DJD, your rating is improved.

I'm not saying all laxity is due to condition of the dog but I think many do not realize it can be in certain situations and you maybe throwing out your dogs too soon.

We shouldn't have to call them; why doesn't our report/certificate SHOW what the 3 ratings/opinions were? Makes more sense to me!

Well, I would have to ask "Burnt", if the x-rays were done by a specialist or respected vet with OFA expereince and I ask if the "newbie's" were told that this was probaby not going to pass at 2yrs, because of the extent of the subluxation and that there would probably be DJD. What consititutes a show dog in your opinion? When was the last time you saw this supposed show dog move? Did you get a copy of the final x-ray. There are so many variables to this persons (burnt) post. The only witch hunt that I heard of was well justified, because this "witch" was about ready to be brewed in her own stew!!!

I understand your frustration with the inconsistency of the 3 ratings. How can 3 orthopedic vets be that far apart? The Good rating is fine, sure....... but why are there 2 of the 3 ratings so far apart?

The OP has the right to gripe. She didn't get what she paid for. I can understand 1 grade apart but 2? No, I don't get it either. I'm also not a firm beleiver in Penn Hip. The percentile depends on what they are evaluating for a certain time frame. If all dogs have just okay hips, your dog has great hips you'll have a very high percentile. The same going in the opposite direction.

After hearing this from more than 1 person, I will call for the 3 ratings too. I want to be sure this isn't happening with my dogs. If it happens too often, something is very wrong. Perhaps they're using the wrong specialists.

That's about all I have to say and I won't come back to argue my opinion on this subject.

"Particularly in breeds with few or no members having tight (OA-unsusceptible) hips this moderate approach is preferable."

Do you really think this comment addresses Labrador Retrievers?

I don't know why you want to argue. PennHIP overall recommends breeding the tightest hips possible to improve the breed average.

Sorry, I think that is a broad over interpretation. That is all. I prefer the forum membership see what exactly is said by PennHIP so they can make up their own minds.

I think the point here is that OFA is subjective. They read what is shown to them on one day in time.
They cannot predict the long term outcome, only tell you what they see on that day with the films you provide them.
OFA cannot tell us if a subluxated dog will or will not improve, get worse or develop DJD and when or how bad.
I have personally seen it go in both directions. I have seen loose joints with failed prelims go on to obtain OFA good ratings at 2 and I have seen them progress and develop DJD. We just don't know until it happens.
I think it's very important that if we get a
failing prelim soley because of subluxation, that we continue to monitor the situation and treat the dog accordingly. In other words, don't throw the dog away purely for that reason because it could change, for better OR worse.
I own a 5 year old dog who was xray'd at 7 months and at that time, it was clear that not only were his hips subluxated but he also had already developed DJD. This dog also showed bilateral ED with DJD at the same time.
In this case, there was no question that the dog was in fact, dysplastic due to the DJD in all 4 joints already.
Fortunately, the dog shows no symptoms of lameness and regardless of his hip & elbow status, he is a much loved, neutered member of our family.

Are you guys just joking when you say the "students" at OFA are reading the xrays? Or is this real? Please do not tell me that it is radiology students that are grading our dog's hips!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Before rumors and hearsay is started:

Perhaps someone should call OFA and find out if the Radiology Veterinary Interns/Residents are reading x-rays for hips/elbows. Maybe they have a policy that they can share with us...?? Does anyone know them well enough to ask?

Why call and ask, when the information is posted on OFA's site? Stars surround the important part of the quote, as I do not know how to make that part bold.

Quote below taken from

http://www.offa.org/hipproc.html

"OFA's Handling Procedures

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When a radiograph arrives at the OFA, the information on the radiograph is checked against information on the application. The age of the dog is calculated, and the submitted fee is recorded. The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality. If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated. An application number is assigned.

****Radiographs of animals 24 months of age or older are independently evaluated by three randomly selected, board-certified veterinary radiologists from a pool of 20 to 25 consulting radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia.****

Each radiologist evaluates the animal's hip status considering the breed, sex, and age. There are approximately 9 different anatomic areas of the hip that are evaluated (Figure 1).

Craniolateral acetabular rim
Cranial acetabular margin
Femoral head (hip ball)
Fovea capitus (normal flattened area on hip ball)
Acetabular notch
Caudal acetabular rim
Dorsal acetabular margin
Junction of femoral head and neck
Trochanteric fossa
The radiologist is concerned with deviations in these structures from the breed normal. Congruency and confluence of the hip joint (degree of fit) are also considered which dictate the conformation differences within normal when there is an absence of radiographic findings consistent with HD. The radiologist will grade the hips with one of seven different physical (phenotypic) hip conformations: normal which includes excellent, good, or fair classifications, borderline or dysplastic which includes mild, moderate, or severe classifications."

Frankly, I think it means if you have a bitch with outstanding PennHip results , you may now take her to an OFA FAIR dog ! If he is the best dog for her. It does not mean you must breed to another PennHip dog that has equally high rating. The beauty of a super sound dog is FREEDOM to use any dog you wish !

that is so simple minded.
I guess we don't need to study the history and pedigrees anymore????

breeder/ohio

Frankly, I think it means if you have a bitch with outstanding PennHip results , you may now take her to an OFA FAIR dog ! If he is the best dog for her. It does not mean you must breed to another PennHip dog that has equally high rating. The beauty of a super sound dog is FREEDOM to use any dog you wish !

Breeding for clearances is simple minded.

This is why breeders should look at their own plates and attempt to find someone to mentor them in what to look for etc. Too bad we can't get an ortho vet to put on a seminiar or someone from OFA etc etc. Years ago, I attended a seminar put on by the PennHip here in ON.
You still must choose a certifying body....find your comfort zone and what works for YOUR program/dogs.

"When a radiograph arrives at the OFA, the information on the radiograph is checked against information on the application."

Well, anytime humans are involved, there's a chance for error or oversights! I had a pet bitch puppy Iplaced, AKC individual app completed correctly and sent to AKC for registration and they issued it for a male and sent to new owner. Owner never bothered to have it corrected. Down the road, prelims were done and sent to OFA and vet completed form copying info from AKC registration submitting them for a male. OFA issued the prelim report stating it was a male. If OFA was checking the information on the radiograph against the written information, they would have noticed the missing "equipment". When I saw results posted on OFA site for the registration number stating it was a male and knowing that app was issued for a bitch puppy , I called them on it. They pulled the xray and clearly it was a bitch. So all I can say is they don't always double check that information carefully and compare to the xrays!!

How can you tell gender on an x ray, the penis is soft tissue, and I don't think that would show up on an x ray???

Besides I think the statement that you quoted is intended to mean that they check the Reg number and data on the x ray film and make sure it matches the Reg number and data on the OFA application. If both the OFA application, and AKC Reg data match genders, how else would they know that this was a bitch, not a dog? There would be no reason to even look? Human error aside, I see a big hole in this story.

Last time I heard the male dog penis had a bone in it....

I own a 5 year old dog who was xray'd at 7 months and at that time, it was clear that not only were his hips subluxated but he also had already developed DJD. This dog also showed bilateral ED with DJD at the same time.
In this case, there was no question that the dog was in fact, dysplastic due to the DJD in all 4 joints already.
Fortunately, the dog shows no symptoms of lameness and regardless of his hip & elbow status, he is a much loved, neutered member of our family.


Excuse me, this 5yr old dog was x-rayed by the co-breeder and the x-rays were never sent to OFA, you decided on your own, because you have x-ray vision, that this dog had DJD. There was never a final sent to OFA, so how can you even compare this to what this discussion is about?
It seems to me Burnt, that you are full of stories that are made up in your head, just so you look like the victim. Back up your accusations with proof, I know what dog your talking about and there is nothing on OFA. So, how can you say, you have seen dogs that have subluxation at 6 months, pass or fail at 2yrs, when your example of 5yr old dog with supposed DJD was never submitted to OFA?
So, just to let you know, yes, that was a litter from hell! You took that dog, knowing fully, he had subluxation, never paid for him and then later throw this up in the breeders faces, with no hard facts, like OFA evaluation, just your x-ray vision. We all have had litters from hell, but we go on and try and do our best later. You still harp on this and in fact had my stud dog on your website, as the sire of this dog that had DJD. So, there was no bitch involved? Hmmmm, breeding101, there is a dam and sire to every litter! You can put in neon lights about this dog and his sire and how your rescued him. Until you come up with genetic testing for HD or DJD as my sire was to blame, you need to put the broom in your mouth! Get a life! We "breeders" never told you about others in the litter. You need to quit twising things around to make everyone look bad but yourself. You are not a victim or burnt, when you walk into something with your eye's open. So, I think you are just stirring your "brew again". There are so many people wise to you. I guess witches never change there brew-right

wow, is it a full moon? the crazies are really out tonight!!

You are not a vet...are you? Your statement does not make sense at all. It is all a matter of how much the eye of the Dr is trained. To a vet with a little experience it takes less than one minute to evaluate a hip/elbow x-ray.