I recently had one of my labs EIC tested from DDC, and it came back Affected.

There is no way this can be true as this lab can run like the wind for long periods of time, and there has never been an incident or collapse.

Also. no offspring have had EIC symptoms.

For this reason, I will no longer EIC test my dogs, as I do not believe this test is accurate.

I am doing my own research, and want to know if anyone else has had the same experience.

Or has anyone had the same diagnoses, but has experienced problems of collapsing, or any other symptom.

Thanks

I've said this before- I know of a Master Hunter from conformation lines that is genetically affected but has never collapsed. When bred to a carrier female (before the test was available) this dog produced a litter in which several dogs cannot be field trained or hunted with because they collapse. I have corresponded directly with the dog's owner and am friends with the breeder of the collapsing dogs. This is not hearsay. Some dogs do seem to be protected from the dynamin1 mutation that the DNA test detects, but if they have the gene, they can pass it on and produce phenotypically affected dogs that, for whatever reason, lack that protection.

Last I heard, the U Minn team was very interested in the dogs that are genetically affected but do not exhibit symptoms. The researchers agree that other genes may be involved and would like to find them if possible. Please contact them, tell them about your dog and cooperate with them. Maybe you can help with the development of a test that is better at predicting what dogs will collapse. In the meantime, only breed your dog to clears and realize that all the resulting puppies will be carriers for the dynamin 1 mutation. The test is accurate for what it is designed to detect.

I have two EIC genetically affected dogs who do not collapse and just a few weeks ago received a questionnaire from Katie Minor at UMinn regarding the status of the dogs. I had them tested about a year ago and the questionnaire asked if they had collapsed since they were tested, activities they participate in, etc.

Prior to the test, I bred my genetically affected bitch to at least one known carrier, and have bred three carrier to carrier litters. From one of those carrier/carrier litters, there is a dog who is genetically affected who had a collapse this summer at age 3.5. I am not the owner and the 'wobbliness' stage was not seen, and the owners saw the video and didn't think it looked familiar. They and vet originally thought it was heat stroke, but given the pedigree, I paid for him to be tested and he came back affected. At this time, UMinn is not 'counting' him as a collapser, but will follow up on him as well.

I definitely think the dynamin-1 mutation is associated with EIC collapse, but as Peggy said, there appears to be a subset of dogs that are protected, or there is an incomplete penetrance factor in play.

To the OP, I have been collecting information about dogs/pedigrees that are genetically affected but who don't collapse for my own information and would be interested in hearing from you and anyone else who wants to 'talk EIC' privately. My email is listed.
CME

I have 10 Labs, and I am a show breeder, this particular lab that is rated "Affected" can out run, and out do all of them hands down...

And is 4+, and never produced offspring that manafest EIC

Did you READ either of the above responses - both had situations similar to yours and it looks like it's only a matter of time until it bites you in the butt!

Besides, 4+ isn't very old to have produced offspring that are adults, unless you started breeding him at about a year of age! Or you might have been lucky and only bred him to bitches that were clear of the gene, in which case you would not get any collapses from EIC.

Yes, you better read and listen. We all have our time. I have a dog that has a very bad hip. He does not know it and to see him butt tuck and fly across the field you would not think he has a problem. Does not limp at this point. But he does have a very bad hip. Its there. In time he will slow down. And yours might collapse. Think this would be a sad thing to watch.

RUNNNING has nothing to do with whether a dog has EIC. If you read the literature and the messages here, all dogs seem to have a different trigger. Some can swim and run like crazy, but throw a tennis ball and they are down and out.

Perhaps your dog hasn't had an excitement trigger that would produce the classic symptoms--but I would not just poo-poo the test and walk away. It is a real and serious issue.

MWK

HELLO!

You are missing my point.

(I am a show breeder of many years, not a novice breeder...)

The point is this:

#1 She is 4 1/2 years old, and has not shown any symptoms of EIC.

#2 She can out run, (including strenous retrieving), over most dogs, and out do most dogs younger than she, and has never manafested any EIC symptoms.

#3 She has been bred, and never produced it.

For these reasons, especially #1, and #2, I doubt the accurcy of the EIC DNA TEST. (please note DNA test)

If a dog has HD or ED, you can see it on an x-ay.

With EIC, the dog will collapse if excercised enough.

My op is for those who are educated in this field, not for novice breeders who are on witch hunts

THANK YOU TO PEGGY STEVENS,

I have wrote The U Minn to let them know I have an EIC tested positive dog that is 4 1/2 years of age, and has not manifested one symptom of EIC. And as I said, she can run,retrieve,, jumping, etc (anything physical), basically out do most dogs younger than she, ( so this is not a couch potato).

Perhaps the DDC's test isn't accurate, but I'd probably not bank on it if the pedigree has any red flags at all (see labradata.org or OFA for some hints). If you don't believe the test, plesase go directly to the researchers who did the original work at U of MN and get it confirmed or denied there before making your final decisions based on how long or fast a dog can run. I have one in a pet home who can hunt all day (upland, no less) but has gone down 2x w/ a game of Chuck-it w/ the kid. Still trying to get them to test her... at my expense, but I'm convinced it's EIC,not heat related as shes recovering too fast.

You aren't reading.

Being able to RUN doesn't mean the dog does not and will not suffer from EIC.

I hope your girl continues to do well, and that you don't go ahead now and breed her to carriers or affecteds.

Please do not disregard the results of your test.

I too have a genetically affected dog that does not collapse....YET! However, she has a half brother who DOES collapse. Do you think that the gene she got from that same dam that produced a collapsing affected somehow doesn't "count"?

The collapsing half brother collapsed early in life at under a year in hot weather when he saw a deer and a chase ensued. He continued to collapse in those type situations when out for a run on a hot day with the owner and any kind of "game" was seen. In the absence of either game or heat, this dog apparently does not collapse. The mild weather this year....Not one collapse.

Please understand that while your individual dog may be protected for whatever reason or simply has not been in the right triggering situation, he CAN still produce collapsing affecteds if bred to a carrier or affected.

Now, all you have to do is test any bitches bred to him and make sure they are clear.

or not.....and risk having a puppy buyer ask why you knowingly produced the collapsing dog they now have to watch and be worried about collapsing; with the possibility of death as a result.

She can retrieve not only tennis balls, but doves as well.

And no falling or callapsing, etc

This is worth noting. It was posted over on the ask the experts post on
http://www.dancindogproductions.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10


This is a good lead in to a point I would like to make regarding dogs that do not show signs of collapse.

Again from our data, >80% of affected dogs 3 yrs and older have experienced at least one, and often times multiple, episodes of rear limb wobbliness/collapse. However; there is a percentage of dogs that may never experience signs of collapse, even when worked to a very high degree of intensity. This does not, however; predict a similar lack of symptoms in their littermates, or their offspring.

For this I have a very good real life example.

We have tested 60 offspring from a genetically affected non-collapsing sire that has competed at a high level in field trials.

We have 39 carrier offspring, none with a report of exercise intolerance or collapse

We have 21 genetically affected offspring from 11 different dams

of those

14 are collapsing

1 - 6 yr old is not
1 - 4 yr old is not
1 - 3 yr old is not
4 - 1 yr olds are not

Typical age for a first collapse is between 5 mos and 3 yrs of age, so of his 21 affected offspring, only 2 have attained greater than 3 yrs without collapse do date.

Mine is training in upper level field work and has not collapsed either. She is very high energy and will go, go go. She also has field lines behind her. She is almost 4 years old. No collapsing....YET.

But Hello!!!!!!!!!!!! Her half brother is still a collapsing affected. Which means the gene she got from the mutual dam did produce an affected and therefore, the same gene can be passed on to any puppies she has.

Katie Minor has said that they have dogs on record who are affected who did not collapse until they were very old!

You are in classic denial.

Somethings are just hard to accept. I had a girl who was 2 months short of 7 years old who fell right before my eyes. It was the scariest and most disturbing thing I have seen in dogs. I was in complete shock, believe me it's something everybody should wish they to not have to experiance for themselves with one of their dogs.
first tested for epilipsy, then echoed for TVD, everything came back negative. Finally decided to test her for EIC, sure enough, came back affected!!!
And yes, my girl is from confirmation lines where the kennels hunted as well. MY girl has worked in the field and participated in hunt tests as well, with no inkling of what would someday happen to her. She has a ton of drive, could go all day. Endless amount of energy in the field and at home.
The incident occured at home with all my girls outside playing and rough housing like they have done hundreds of times before.
Now with 3 litters behind her, not a day goes by when I don't think I am going to recieve that dreaded call that a puppy that she produced suddenly collasped. Also, her pedigree would be a surprise for alot of people, including me, who kept up on the "lines" that were possible carriers.
One final word of caution, the worst of this I feel is being in denial.

Dear none believer breeder,
You state you have 10 Labs and are not a novice Breeder. Could you please use your name so that I don't make the mistake of buying a dog from you because my last dog showed no signs of TVD (Echo cleared), but passed it on to her last Litter

OP- you do not seem to understand the concept of penetrance of a genetic trait as Peggy and other posters have been pointing out to you. Good 'ol wikipedia lays this concept out well for the layman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetrance. And no I am not a breeder, but am an MD who treats a number of genetic conditions in people that have variable penetrance as well. Hope this helps you to understand that although your girl shows no outward signs of EIC (phenotype), she can and will pass this gene on to her offspring.

Not sure why you keep being a broken record about this. There is CLEAR evidence that some dogs that are coming back AFFECTED have never shown any clinical signs. Are you saying that the pups this bitch has produced are being tested and are coming up EIC CLEAR? If so, then there needs to be more discussion. If you are being stubborn just because your dog plays and runs and outruns the rest of your dogs, consider yourself lucky that your doesn't show clincal signs yet.

"My op is for those who are educated in this field, not for novice breeders who are on witch hunts"

Carrie and I have both worked in the field of molecular biology. I have read the original research paper, and I think she probably has, too. Is a Stanford Ph. D. in cell biology, several years of post-doctoral study and 25 years of college teaching of genetics and cell biology educated enough for you? I also have communicated directly with Katie Minor, who works in the U. Minn. lab, as have quite a few other breeders. As for being a novice, I have had Labs for 35 years and have been breeding for 25 years, and some of the other people who have replied may have been in the breed longer. Maybe you've been breeding longer than that, but surely you don't think that length of involvement makes me a novice. There are veterinarians and MDs who have chimed in on this issue in support of the validity of the test. And I'm not on a witch hunt. I freely admit that I have carriers myself and that I am breeding them to clear dogs. I have produced a collapsing dog. I'm in the glass house with you, and I'm just trying to put up stickers so that no one will crash into the walls. I'm not throwing stones. (Sorry about the colliding metaphors.)

Where do you people get the idea that I will breed my girl who rated "affected" to a Carrier?

Where do you people even get the idea that I will even breed her again?

I do not mention my name, as I do not want any gossip or ill toward any of the respectable breeders whom I have bought from, or to whose stud dogs I have used.

The question is not how it is inherited, but is rather why the "affected" dog does not have episodes

I wrote you "kind" people to see if any one had a similar experience, not to ignite a fire of gossip or back biting.

I just talked with a specialist at the University of MN, and she said they are not 100% sure why the 20%+ of the Labrador Retrievers with the result of "affected" are protected, (show no physical signs)

Reasons I have gathered from the U of M are as follows:

Human error--test mixed up with someone else's

Could be that the temperament of the dog is very easy going, amd does not excit easily, which is what brings this eppisode on.

or it could be a gene in the dog that is protecting the dog from this condition.

I also found out that some breeders who's dog is rated as "carrier" do the test again at another place who does the DNA test to try to get a Clearance. (and some have succeded)

My final conclusion is this: I am going to retest my girl at the University of MN, and if she is bred, it will be to a stud dog who is EIC clear.

huh?

"quote from NON-BELIEVER
For this reason, I will no longer EIC test my dogs, as I do not believe this test is accurate."

You asked where we all got the idea that you would breed your girl to a carrier or affect EIC stud? Your above quote! If you believe the test is not accurate then you probably would NOT consider a stud's EIC stauts to merit any consideration when making your breeding decisions. - so it is not that far of a leap to assume that you will breed to a carrier and disregard the test. Don't start getting snarky with the breeders who do respond to your OP. Please read what you really write before hitting the "POST" button.

Just a comment:
Tests to detect deceases are a blessing. If you don't see it like that, it is because you, either don't care and don't love your dogs, or because you haven't been long enough breeding dogs (AKA ignorant).
The millions of dollars invested in research are very well spent. No test is perfect at the beginning, but it is a tool to be use by wise breeders. Once it improves it can be used by any breeder.
You, and by you I mean everyone, are a jerk when you complaint because your dog came back affected when you though he/she wasn't.
Would you complaint if a test comes back negative, when you though it was an affected?
Again there is no perfect test, and The EIC test is on their first steps. Trying to defame the test only hurts you , us and the dogs.

Sorry for been to straight forward, but I've lost dogs to deceases I wish there was a DNA test for.

I have an almost 8 yr old girl who collapsed this last winter. She had never before shown any signs ! It didn't last long but it sure as heck scared me to death. I am thinking of testing her to see, when I send in my boys sample. She has not collapsed since then but I am now getting my Labs tested just to be safe.

No, the only "jerks" are the ones who who blindly follow anyone that claims to have a "test", even though it isn't accurate and incomplete.
Long time breeders are the ones who are smart to question such "tests" and they are the ones who know you do not put all your faith in a "test" in it's beginning stages, especially when even the inventor admits they haven't perfected this "test" yet!
So go ahead, breed for clearances. You who do so, are the ones who DO NOT have the breed in their best interest.

LauraD......I went to your web site and didn't see any of your dogs that had been tested for EIC? Maybe you just haven't updated your site yet? You have lovely dogs to be sure..

I do not completely disagree with you. It is a tool, that will get better with time. Some breeders might use it as a %100 reliable test, and then they get upset like the OP did.
I just don't understand why people trash a test, when the own Lab is telling you it is not perfect. It is not even about EIC, it is about any test that has become available out there. Be grateful there is research been done. Use it as you think your dogs need it.

Again, it is not about defending this test in particular. I'm pro-research, and any advance is appreciated.
Some more tests are in the mail, and one thing I can tell you, whatever results I get, I don't question them. They are just a red or a green flag that I'll take into concideration for future breedings.

Laura, I find your comments re the accuracy of the EIC test somewhat surprising. I would assume that as a veterinarian you would have read and understood the papers written on the EIC test.

The test is 100% accurate in testing for the rogue gene. This is exactly what the test is for. What is not clear is what other factors trigger the actual collapse.

Olivia Nankivell
Milaje Labradors
Western Australia

I’m the one that doesn’t understand your statement. I’ll be a reliable/perfect/complete test the day that it can identify all the factors involved in the syndrome, and not only the mutated gene responsible for the susceptibility to EIC or as you called it “Rogue gene”. For now I’m glad there is a new test to help eliminate a health issue.

LOL - She's not a vet - look up her kennel name (which is her last name) - it's Van Dalen, thus her name on the list LauravD.

LOL - She's not a vet - look up her kennel name (which is her last name) - it's Van Dalen, thus her name on the list LauravD.[/quote]
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If you read her 'about us' page on the website, Paragraph 5, she states that she is a veterinarian[:)

Olivia Nankivell
Milaje Labradors
Western Australia

Well, in that case, that's awful scary - you'd think a vet would be more educated on both medical issues and genetics!

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My thoughts exactly, I thought maybe that English was not her 1st language and perhaps that was why the spelling and grammar were bad.

The issues regarding the medical stuff and genetics is much more scary lol.

Olivia nankivell
Milaje Labradors
Western Australia

Not all M.D.'s primarily studied genetics in med school but have some knowledge and not all went on to be Geneticist... some go into Family Practice, Pediatrics.... etc Many times, if children are having a genetics problem of some sort the Pediatrian would get a Geneticist involved... which I believe would be the smart move and something that you would want for your child!

So I would think (not having college degree myself) since EIC research is relatively new in the last 5-7 years... that a Vet would not have studied the genetics of EIC at Vet school or is still learning about the intricacies of the actual genetics of EIC that they would defer to those who are well educated in Genetics and continue to learn about the disease...

It's interesting to see people slam someone without thinking the process through but then again.... that's just my humble opinion!

Genetics is a major in itself.
Do you think your general medical doctor could figure out genetic diseases? That is what specialist are for.

Most of your veterinarians will have one or two base classes on it.
To slam her with out understanding how the process works shows your ignorance

If you disagree with someone, then state your case.
Some of us are actually interested to read, learn & listen to others thoughts and opinions based on these kinds of tests.

I don't know why you have to make personal attacks on someone, by saying "I thought maybe that English was not her 1st language and perhaps that was why the spelling and grammar were bad" It's just Rude

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Nobody is doing any slamming of anyone.

Laura posted the following:-

I’m the one that doesn’t understand your statement. I’ll be a reliable/perfect/complete test the day that it can identify all the factors involved in the syndrome, and not only the mutated gene responsible for the susceptibility to EIC or as you called it “Rogue gene”. For now I’m glad there is a new test to help eliminate a health issue.
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I question her understanding of the test. The test identifies the mutant DNM1 gene. The test is 100% accurate in identifying the gene. Laura is not separating the EIC test from the other factors which lead to an affected dog collapsing. This is the part of EIC which is puzzling because it would appear that different dogs collapse in differing situations. It has been well documented here and on other lists and also from UNM that there are other factors involved, but this does not alter the accuracy of the test.

The test is for the gene only.

If this is slamming someone then I would question your ability to engage in an informal discussion about a contentious issue.

BTW, I am neither a veterinarian nor a geneticist, but I understand the basic fundamentals of the test.



Olivia Nankivell
Milaje Labradors
Western Australia

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Diane, I think you need to read the entire thread and put my comments in context.

I was surprised to find that as a veterinarian, she did not appear to understand that the test for EIC and the other factors which contribute to a dog having a collapse are two separate issues.

This is very clear from the research done by UMN. I do not have a veterinary or scientific education, but I do understand what has been published by UMN about the research.

Another poster said that Laura was not a vet, I referred her to Laura's website on which she states that she is a veterinarian. I then suggested that maybe English was not her first language based on the content of her first post on this matter. It was NOT
a personal attack. I don't actually care whether English is her first or last language, I found her delivery of her case rather difficult to understand due to the spelling and strange grammar.

Olivia Nankivell
Milaje Labradors
Western Australia

So your saying, that breeding with considerations to EIC testing is hurting the breed? Now that's intelligent. How smart will you be when people stop using your stud because he wasn't tested or you produce puppies that collapse and word gets around? That's real good for the breed. I think you need to read up on how affecteds are produced. Not using this tool can hurt you, your puppy buyers, the breed and your reputation which will hurt your pocketbook in the end. You have nothing to lose by testing but plenty to lose if you don't. You risk hurting the breed, not the people who test.

Please, let's get back to the topic at hand and stop making rude comments about others.

Be civil or you'll be gone.

-Jill

I didn't read all the posts, but will chime in with my experience. I have an affected who has collapsed. She can run with other dogs and wrestle all day. She can hunt, train, compete, etc. and seems fine. It is only on a frenzied hunt where live things are popping up like crazy that she has collapsed. It is not just plain old exercise that brings it out in her. Like the UMN website info says, it appears that many dogs collapse with some factor besides just exercise. Those of you with dogs who tested affected may just have not found the trigger for your dogs. It is not a death sentence to have EIC. My dog will continue to live the life she has always led, but now that the test confirmed EIC, I know exactly what I am dealing with. I feel confident that I can prevent the collapses from happening by stopping her when she gets in the state that has triggered a collapse. Because we don't yet know about the penetration of this gene and how it will play out for each dog, the best that each breeder can do is test their breeding stock so they don't breed EIC affected dogs. Those breeding field dogs are testing commonly now. It is not a witch hunt in the field world and should not be in the show world either.