I started in obedience and after a couple of years bought a show potential from a top breeder. She was a wash out in the ring but I bred her to a top stud and kept a nice pup. We placed at specialities but no points. I bred her and kept a pup, again placing but no points. Last year I bought another show potentail and he isn't show quality. 8 dogs--no points. I see below about the handler costs and I cannot afford that plus I thought it was supposed to be about the "journey." This must be *my* journey--filling the classes for others to get points. It's embarrassing.

I think you need some mentorship. Put your check book away, stop buying dogs and learn about correct structure and breed type, then you can CHOOSE the right dog to take in the ring.

I am 8 years in the sport, and running on my show keeper from my first litter. Mom was sold as show potential, lots of firsts, no points...though other performance titles.

Everyone raves about my boy, and while an UKC champion already, no AKC points. I don't think you can successfully show a dog in 5-6 shows a year and hope to gain points unless the dog is fantastic or you are a superb handler. I don't know how your handling skills are, but even though the trainers I have gone to say I do it fine, I still lack the nuances that the great handlers have. I am a TON better than when I was showing my first bitch. We are doing alot better this time round though. I can't use a handler either and really would prefer to do it myself, but I am realistic that might mean I don't finish a dog for several generations.

I love being in labs but at this time in my life my family must come first so priorities will not allow me to use 8-10K to finish dogs. I look at the shows I go to as a hobby and a relaxation place that I get to spend time with friends and other lab lovers.

In a few years when the kids are out of college I would love to start traveling and getting more into the shows. but for now a two hour drive from home allows me 5-10 shows a year.

akc has become a sport for those who can afford paid handlers.

for a sport with a family and fun atmosphere and no paid handlers, try ukc. ukc registrations, events, and Lab competition are increasing every year. there's a lab club that sponsors specialties with good judges. two specialties in oct. in nc.

the motto of ukc is "our dogs do stuff." warning: ukc judges do not like dogs so overweight that they can't do stuff.

Placing at a Specialty is a great accomplishment
Pick your best 2 dogs & get other breeders opinions. I would just focus on the best one and enjoy yourself in the ring

Yes - you need a better mentor with a proven record. I show my own dogs mostly, with a few handlers here and there, mostly for a last major. I've been showing for about 12 years now and have bred and finished about 8 dogs so far in AKC shows. It can be done, though 5-6 shows is not enough to do much of anything. I would also work on your handling skills, presentation, and choose your judges wisely.

Good luck!

....akc has become a sport for those who can afford paid handlers... NOT!!!!

This statement couldn't be more untrue.

I have dogs with titles on both ends. I have never hired a handler. I have finished Ch on 6 dogs (4 are BISS), and have major points on 4 more. I have Hunt Titles on 7 dogs and one MH. They are fat and fit.
My guess is your dogs are house dogs and you don't keep alot of coat on them maybe? You have to know how to find structure. Learn to weed out the dogs that just don't cut it, instead of wasting money on dogs that will never make it. Place the ones that don't please you. Do get opinions of those that have been successful, but be prepared for brutal honesty. It's tough but you can do it!

How you feel after 10 years and no points was pretty darned close to how I felt, but my situtation was on the flip-side. I have 3 labs that need a major to finish. Now, they're all too old to be competitive any longer even though they look great - but they are all 7yrs old. The dogs placed at specialties consistently even a nice specialty RWB long ago. I can't seem to finish a dog!! It bothered me for quite some time that I couldn't finish a dog on my own, but now I just don't care. They're nice dogs, have been good producers, and they fit nicely into my life. I have quit trying to finish a dog as it just isn't going to happen without a handler or constant trips on the road to specialties.

When I look at how much money all those points cost me showing myself and not finishing the dogs, I should have just hired a handler as it would have saved me money. Doubt it would have had the same meaning as finishing a dog myself. In the end, it's all a numbers game - breed more litters, run on more puppies, cut numbers, hire a handler.

I am going to say something here that is not going to make fast friends .
For those of you that keep one or two dogs, pamper them and keep them in your house year round, how the dickens do you expect to compete with dogs that are on a serious excercise program, [rears that are as hard as a rock], toplines that are solid, no rolls with side movement, and coats that are from allowing the dog to be outdoors in the weather and grow enough coat to warm themselves. If you are going to play the game, then you must know the rules! They are supposed to be atheletes !!!! A ball tossed in the backyard is NOT excercise. The dog must have stamina , the dog must be conditioned, the male dog must look like a stallion !

BRAVO!!!

You're right - you're not making friends!! You ASSUME that the dogs are out of shape. Frankly, many of the dogs out in the ring are too fat, sloppy and have rolls over the shoulder (only mentioning a few things I see).

There are plenty of folks showing who have 4-6 dogs living as family members that are in the correct condition to be shown. Those folks do the needed work to get dogs in condition whether they live in the home or not.

While I don't love what you're saying, I think you are on to something. For me, I am pretty new to showing and am putting my toes in the water carefully and methodically. I have several excellent mentors who allow me to go on and on with my questions and keep a straight face!

My advice is to try some of the things that were suggested with "toughening up" your show dog. Think of it as an experiment. If you have the facilities to work the dog hard, allow him to be in the cold a bit more and really exercise him, maybe you can get there. Well, that and a great mentor who is willing to be honest with you. Your original breeder may not be that person; sometimes they are too close to the situation to be objective.

Good luck!

yeah, yeah, yeah. same ole, same ole. but you still need to breed a lot of litters spend a lot of money and or hire a handler.

i have finished dogs in akc without a handler. it cost thousands of dollars and miles. i stopped adding after ten thousand because the numbers depressed me.

i have finished dogs in akc with a handler. it cost thousands of dollars and miles. i stopped adding after ten thousand because the numbers depressed me.

at one point i believed that a dog needed an akc title to be bred. but at this point i wonder if an akc title says anything about how good a dog is for breeding stock? too many nice labs start. too few finish. and i stopped having fun a long time ago.

OP, i know you must feel discouraged. the odds are against you. the costs are high. doesn't mean you don't have a nice dog.

A lot of times in the AKC an owner/handler is going against the odds. Many times it is the pro/handler judge connection that get some of these dogs the points, nice or not, in condition or out. I see it all the time, a not so nice dog wins because of who is on the other end of the lead.

It is necessary to get a dog in show condition to keep up with the competition if you are going to owner/handle. It is discouraging when you don't win but you would have a better chance to win by going to more shows and if you give a good presentation with your dog and it is nice enough quality you could get the win.

Another thing is to take a real objective look at the dogs you are showing and compare them to the standard and make an honest decision on if they are really competive for what is out showing now.

Good luck!

I have been breeding, showing and loving labs for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple that my dogs have done any serious winning. But I have to say: when I go to a large specialty and I bring my dogs (who in my eyes are the most lovely representations of the breed) it never fails to floor me that there are so many gorgeous, gorgeous Labs out there. And believe me, I am happy to take home a specialty placement at these shows (and I feel this way after having a dog win a best in specialty). Not every deserving dog can win every time.

I also have to say that handling can be critical. I don't mean you need to have a big name handler, but the dog needs to be shown to it's best advantage. The competition demands it. It also bears repeating that conditioning is critical as well. You just can't physically compare a couch potato to an athlete-be it man or beast:).

Which is all well and good, but me, I like my dogs, I enjoy their company. For the time they are in the show ring (what, 1/2 hour of their lives???) I will not banish them to the yard to grow coat. Period.

I show my dogs in conformation and obedience. Obedience dictates that I must have a rapport with my dog. I'd rather lose in the show ring thank you very much.

'Hot' statements like the ones you have made are what leave AKC people with a bad taste in their mouth about UKC. I support both registries and show my dogs in both AKC and UKC. You catch more bees with honey...

A AKC Judge JUST thanked me for showing him a Lab that was in good weight and good condition! (the only boy who was in good condition in the class)there were lots of FAT Labs in the ring. It was very nice to get this compliment from a JUDGE, when we work hard to stay in fit condition. Fat does NOT equal natural substance. I do think some put extra weight on their dog thinking they can fool people that they will think their dog has more substance - wrong. You can see fat rolls and lumps/bumps standing or on the move and it is clearly fat, not muscle or structure.
I shake my head when I see a very overweight Lab, either male or female, because the FIRST thing I think is can, or could, that Lab also work in the field without tiring? Back to the breed standard.

Can you give some practical info on how to condition a dog for the show ring?

Seriously, OF COURSE if you can afford a handler, you will have an advantage or why on earth would you do it? For the advantage!!

IMHO, each person needs to make their show/breeding experience an individual thing and not compare their goals to the goals of others. My dogs are members of my family first and, even if I could afford to send them off with the best handlers and finish them, I wouldn't feel right about it. That's not why I do this.

I have one boy that I show, on occasion, when I am able to gather up the funds for entry fees. The AKC points he has have all been put on by ME, his breeder, his handler, his owner, the one who adores him. Will he ever finish? Probably not. I'm not naive enough to think that I can put majors on him myself. It would take a pro for that. But you know what? I'm proud of what I've accomplished with him and for me, that's enough. I've proven that he's got what it takes, despite having a "challenged" handler on the end of the lead, and that's enough for me. That suits my goals and my life.

1. Diet: Feed the dog, not the food. High quality diet, but make sure the diet is right for each dog, not the whole pack. Check coat quality, quantity. If the food isn't right for the dog, change it. I have several dogs and they each are on different diets.

2. Weight. Know and maintain the right weight for the dog. I keep my bitches at about 75lb and my dogs at 85lbs.

3. Exercise. Swim if you can, road work if you can't. Just be careful with roadwork - too much is not good for the joints or the feet. Lots of running up and down hills if possible.

4. Weather. Work them when it's hot and when it's cold (not when it's not safe, of course), so they get used to it. My dog had a big win once when it was hot because he kept showing when the others fell apart.

what I have said are simply truths. i am not intending to catch bees--or flies. those *people* who are interested in fun competition--with dogs--can find it at ukc--without having to pay a handler. btw, good advice about getting dogs fit.

ukc entries are up. nuff said.

Get off it already!! you sound like an annoying infomercial!!! SHEESH!!

Thank you for all the input and constructive ideas. BTW..my dogs swim all summer and run in farm fields. At a recent show I was told they were in shape but needing weight so I'm starting there. They are on an excellent food and I've increased the quanity.

yep. just a sunny, happy ukc convert.

I have been breeding off and on for 25 years. I had a major break in my breeding program because I had to take my career more seriously. Being retired now, I find the time to do selective breeding, taking time to go to alot of the big specialties, selecting healthy stock, selecting the right judges to show to, and showing my dogs when they are in the best condition. It is expensive for me to run on alot of dogs, but I feel that this is the only way to stay in the show game - to have alternative bitches to breed and about 2 litters a year to choose the next show puppies. I also run on alot of puppies. I think that it is very difficult to win alot / finish champions/ if you don't use a handler once in a while. I have had help to finish my bitches, but did finish a boy myself. I would suggest being strategic when selecting shows/judges/handlers/ and only show when he looks great. What I don't like about being on the road with a handler is that the dog gets shown to every judge. I like to be more selective.

Lets say 5 weekends a year for 10 years = 100 shows at $20 entry per show, two potential show quality dogs bought ($800 each), 6 more bred ($600 each), $20 entry per show, $100 per weekend for gas, hotel, food. No handlers. Round numbers, easier to figure, probably cost more, lots more expenses not included, maybe offset by breeding litters.

Total around $12,200. No points. Something to think about.

Enjoyment of dogs, priceless. Of course, you can enjoy them without showing....

No one mentioned how showing our Labs might be more enjoyable if the AKC gave points for the reserve winners at shows with large entries. I thought the AKC was considering this.

Uh, no, I don't think so.

I believe the AKC was considering giving points for Reserve at a National show (for any breed). That's it.

Good thread! Another question, though. Has your boy been used much? I'm wondering what are the chances of having a boy used if he isn't with one of the top breeders??? Is there really any point of keeping boys at all, even if they are good???

No point in keeping boys really unless you travel tons to specialties, and are a "big" breeder. Have seen many nice boys go un-used.

Truly spoken by a real BYB. Anyone who decides on the sex of dog they keep based on whether it can whelp puppies for them should reconsider why they have dogs.
To put it another way, if you would only keep a male based the amount of stud services he could bring in for you, again, I beg you, please reconsider your intentions.

.........akc has become a sport for those who can afford paid handlers..........



Not true. I have a friend who just finished her dog from bred by, obviously handled by herself. A proper lab who fits the standard and is shown well will prevail.. its not all paid handlers

and if you think it is , go show in UKC, no handlers... I have a Best of Breed UKC dog on my couch right now...
if the dog fits the standard, eventually they will prevail, or not if they dont

Is there really any point of keeping boys at all, even if they are good???

I have a boy who had a very successful show career. He's my pride and joy, and I adore him in that same unconditional way I adore my children.

That's the point.

You're kidding, right? I am not going to throw my dogs outside just so I can win a championship.
I don't make my living off of my dogs and my time showing them/competing in other events is enjoyable or I wouldn't be doing it. Besides I've seen dogs kept outside year round at field kennels that have horrible coats. If there isn't the genetics behind them to grow good coat you can keep them in a freezer and not get a good coat not to mention they need good food as well. I read somewhere that "a good coat starts from the inside". My dogs get more exercise than "tossing a ball". I have a full agility course down in my barnyard area, we have fields to run in and ponds 5 min. away at the retriever club I belong to swim in.
I also have never spent anywhere near the figures I've seen tossed around for finishing a dog (thank goodness). I've spent that amount on my dogs in a year especially including vet bills, but not for showing to a championship, even when using a handler on and off.

How discouraging to new people in our breed or new to showing to read these things. No wonder we're having trouble finding majors.

I don't care how many people say that they have finished dogs without handlers and without spending huge sums of money and really quickly. This is a vocal minority. Thousands of Lab are entered each year, only about 200 dogs finish in a year, and I see mostly handlers in the rings these days.

Of course, there are also some areas of the country where it is easier to get a championship, where the point schedule is so low that you can make your own majors. Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Alaska. This can give you the impression that it is easier than it is, but check the point schedule for the NE in comparison.

The OP is not alone; most dogs drop out before finishing a championship because of the time and money commitment. And many because they can't afford handlers. It's simple economics.

The point? For me, the point of keeping any dog is for MYSELF. Again, not everyone has the same goals.

you say:
Thousands of Lab are entered each year, only about 200 dogs finish in a year, and I see mostly handlers in the rings these days.

Yes, hundreds of Labs are entered each year but there is always only one winner at each show. This is true not matter who is on the lead, not just because it's handlers showing the dogs. There are only so many winners.

You must have a dog that can give a handler a run for his money.

A real BYB? Be realistic. Plenty of nice boys out there that never get used. If you keep a boy, you are evaluating your breeding program so he can be used with your own girls as well as by others. Everyone uses the same boys . . look at the entries. Kind of obvious. Sure keep a boy for yourself cuz you like him. Isnt' that the same as keeping a pet w/ that mentality. Yep!

I stand by my numbers. It's not hundreds of Labs. It's thousands. Potomac alone has over 1000 dogs entered every year, and the majority of people do not attend Potomac every year--and certainly not with every dog.

About 200 Labs finish every year--in contrast to about 600 cockers who compete by color.

Anyway you cut those numbers, a tiny percentage of Labs who are entered in dog shows in their lives will get a championship. Does the best dog finish? Or the owner with the most money? Or the one with the best handler? Or the most friends?

But thousands of people will spend tens of thousands of dollars trying--at least for a while.

Spending money to try and finish your own dog to alot of people is total enjoyment. You do what you can financially. I know showing is great fun for me whether I win or not. I've had so much fun at shows I don't even remember who did win. The friends and good times I've had are worth every minute and every penny and my memories are endless. It's all in how you look at it. Maybe mine won't ever finish. Who cares? Not me. I sure have fun trying though and I love looking at my own dogs. I have several boys, and most don't get used, but I love their look and I use them myself. No handlers for me. If they can't finish with me, then they don't finish and I could care less. The quality of the sperm is the same whether they have a title or not.

Hang in there! It will happen eventually. I have been showing for 7-8 years, but just as a hobby. Some years I might make it to 15-20 shows and some years just a few. I have gone down the road of buying a dog, not getting and points, so buying another. I have also considered using a handler because I have not been able to finish a dog. But, I decided it is my hobby, and I will do it and have fun. I know I am not as good as the handlers, and I know I have had some really nice dogs that a handler could easily finish, but what is the fun in that? I am the one that everyone ringside tells me how beautiful my dog is, and I never win. But I did go WB once and what a feeling! With that same bitch, I got reserve several times. So, no matter how bad the handling is, if the dog is exceptionally nice, the judge will still see it. I would recommend that you have your dogs evaluated by someone you trust, and take some handling classes from a good handler.