Big thumbs up to Debby Kay for her recent article in the LQ.  In the age of
the internet, there are more and more 'wolves in sheeps clothing' in our
breed and some of these high volume breeders tout champions and specialty
winners thanks to some excellent purchases, handlers, and a little luck.  So
many newer exhibitors are quick to want to breed, and others breed pet
litters to financially support the hobby, oftentimes never even seeing the
selected stud in person, knowing the pedigree or even speaking to the owner/breeder, as ordering up semen is as easy as hitting the 'send' button!

Many of us feel like we know each other from forums, websites, and email exchanges, yet have never met in person or would recognize each other at a show. While the Internet is a wonderful way to see pictures of dogs and email is a great communication tool, there's just something about sitting at a friend's table sharing coffee and watching dogs in the flesh that the many breeders have missed. Is mentorship like this a thing of the past?

Perhaps we should all wear nametags at Potomac 2010 with 'My name is
_______" followed by "I mentored under _______"?

Thanks for bringing awareness of this topic to print, Debby!

Pretty darn ironic to compliment anonymously Debby Kay's article about not knowing people personally.

Not me! But I do agree. There are "breeders" who finance their handlers by sales of 100s of puppies bred just for this purpose. Then they try to get into well known clubs out of their area to lend credibility to their "operation."

But do they think most of us don't know who they are. Well we sure do. We have been around and remember well what they do. And you are right. They sell enough pups to get a champion or two and thank that makes them okay. We see right through it. But younger ones, yes, they need to ask and have mentors.

I've been showing for awhile now and have nice dogs that do well at Specialties and at All Breed shows. Have started breeding .. let me tell you it's VERY hard to find a mentor! I have contacted some experienced people and asked for help and received NO response.

I would hope that people would say No to their membership applications into our clubs.

I think what these particulare Breeders are who have at least 2 or 3 litters a month are is Commercial Breeding VS Hobby Breeding and they should call themselves this. They throw in the Champions from all their profits and pay the big handlers and join the Respective Lab Clubs to get more recognition and in turn more sales. Even though they might have Kennel Managers and nice clean Kennels they still are Commercial in it for big Profit. Lab Clubs and puppy buyers don't seem to care?

Please be sure to have your facts straight. I THINK I know one of the people you are disparaging, and if it were me I would not judge until you have visited their "operation" (to put it in your terms) and seen for yourself what they do and can put your own standards of caring for your dogs up against theirs, getting every clearance known to man on ALL of their dogs (yes, not hiding behind "auscultation" just because it's all OFA asks), I would not begin to open my stupid mouth and make an absolute fool of myself. As far as selling puppies - let me see. If you have a litter of 10 puppies, how many of them do you keep? All 10? Please, spare me. What happens to the rest? Do you "bucket" them, or do you sell them as pets? Oh - and that money does not go to supporting your "hobby"? What hypocrisy. If you were priests you would be diddling the alter boys and condemning the practice.

I wish there were only one commercial kennel that hides behind the name of hobby breeder. There are many. Unfortunately, Debby in her article neglected to address the "hobby breeders" who produce multiple litters for fame as well as fortune.

Competing in Labradors has become so ridiculously difficult and expensive that many breeders have decided that the only way to succeed is breed and breed and breed until they get a champion, producing and selling many inferior quality puppies in the process to support their habit...er "hobby."

And this is widely known and they write on this forum.

They write on this forum, show up at shows where one apparently doesn't know how to behave, hangs out with "so called" reputable breeders and judges and continues to exploit the breed. It's good to know they are not fooling anyone.

>>> What hypocrisy. If you were priests you would be diddling the alter boys and condemning the practice.>>

You sound like one of them being discussed. Admirable...not!

2 or 3 litters a month??, how many bitches you need to have that many litters?, at least 20, plus the puppies you keep, plues the ones you show, it's impossible to have 30 - 40 dogs, how much do you need just to feed them?, clearences, vaccines, land, etc..

They do not know how to act at the specialities!! Then just keep quiet for a while but always come back with cheerful "girlfriend like" postings on all the forums.

Very repulsive and uncalled for! I think you lost anyone you were talking to with your last line.

Open your eyes. There are numerous breeders producing 2 litters a month and having 30 or more dogs in their kennel and numerous others they have placed as soon as they stop using them for breeding. If you breed a bitch back to back, you need 12 bitches to produce 24 litters in 12-14 months. You can also use family members and young breeders to help you.

How do they pay for things? With the profits from their puppies and their stud dog services and their boarding kennels.

Where are these breeders? Everywhere. Especially at dog shows and clubs.

What do you call these breeders? Hobby breeders? Compulsive competitors? Commercial breeders? Puppy mills? I guess you "call them" as you see them from your own vantage point.

As someone who produces maybe one litter a year, I call them commercial breeders if they take good care of the dogs, puppy mills if they don't, and compulsive competitors if they hire handlers, show up at Specialties and appear on club websites.

How about the whole 'foster' situation. Its so gross.

Before you go disparaging the people who have larger operations, breed multiple litters a month, kennel managers, etc... Consider where the breed would be if we DIDN'T have these types of kennels in years past. Look at how many litters old-time breeders in England had. They had huge kennels, kennel managers, etc... We would not have the quality in our breed without those kennels.

If it's done well, I don't have a big problem with it - just not how I want to run my own program.

Bickering about other people’s breeding practices is not going to change anything. The best way to forge ahead in life is to lead by example and to nurture relationships with those who have similar principles. This includes finding a mentor who shares similar values and in turn mentoring someone new. People who are breeding non-stop will “mentor” because they need to find co-own homes for their excess dogs. If you find it too much work to mentor, then the mass breeders or compulsive glory-seeking competitors are the people who are going to be guiding the next generation.

Yes, in the “good old days”, there were big breeding kennels; however, most of them were big working kennels where the dogs were evaluated in the field and the best of those were shown. Today, people are breeding so much they “do not have time” to evaluate their dog in the field; many do not have time to wait until the dogs they are breeding are old enough to have final health clearances. It is not about breeding a better working dog, it is about having something new to show in Sweeps at that next specialty. While I find this sad, the only person I can control is myself. I will continue to breed a litter every few years after the dogs in question have proven themselves worthy of breeding (in the field, in the show ring, and in health clearances) and try to mentor others to do the same.

Call a spade a spade - they are "puppy mills with credentials".

Or just call them "successful" because they are. And which example are new breeders going to follow?

I beg to differ. What they do is produce a sea of mediocrity breeding to their own dogs and charge puppy people outrageous prices for pet puppies. They sell puppies on full registrations to use for breeding without so much as a care to where they go to. Personally I suspect they sell whole litters to the Asia and India market as no one gets that many puppy calls for pets. They are a disgrace to the fancy.

As a Labrador 'fancier' of many years and one who does not ever produce more than one or two litters a year I have to say that this breed has more than it's fair share of elitist attitudes. We all have to sleep at night and I hope that everyone who loves this breed as much as I do does the best they can by every individual dog they are responsible for bringing into this world, whatever the numbers are.

The Labrador is a wonderful companion animal and we are lucky as breeders to be able to make so many families complete with one of these amazing dogs that we chose not to compete with-whether it be a puppy or young adult with a problem or a retired breeding animal. They all make phenomenal pets.

Who is to say which breeders are breeding too much. There are smaller breeders breeding average litters and providing inadequate care that are not being so openly criticized. We all know we can't have our cake and eat it too. This is truly a heartbreak hobby no matter what your numbers are and that our breed makes fantastic pets is the upside.

The bottom line is that we have to live with what we are doing ourselves before we start pointing fingers at anyone else. I think most exhibitors who show up at ringside and appear on club sites are in it for their heart regardless of the numbers of dogs they keep and the amount of success they have. And those in their glass houses would do best to not cast any stones.

And then the well known handlers that will finish their dogs for them. It really is a disgrace.

I for one am getting tired of the finger pointing and the name-calling. The being polite to your face at the shows, and then the bash your butt on a forum anonymously gets very old very very fast. I have been “in the fancy” for nearly 25 years. The first few years without a mentor, and yes I floundered then with no knowledge and some really awful dogs purchased from back yard breeders. I am no better and no worse than anyone else, and I certainly am not special in any way shape or form. I have made my share of errors, and will probably screw up again, but that is simply life. I am over 50, wear purple and accept full responsibility for my words…..so after reading this ya’ll might want to sit down and look in the mirror.

I was fortunate to have a mentor who left a mark on the breed. Without the dogs she started me with and the things I learned from her I would not be where I am today. She also recognized that I had the ability to purchase a lot of dogs, and believe me I purchased a lot of dogs from her. Did they work out, did they get re-homed, was I disillusioned, was this all part of what everyone calls paying ones dues? All of those are fairly obvious answers. Was she perfect? Not only no, but heck no. Was she smart, did she have a good eye for a dog, could she intuitively “pick” a winner….yes, to all of those. She also sold all of her puppies on open registration, she had satellite homes and produced many more puppies than you would have suspected, she also did not get all of her clearances on her dogs, and bred them anyway. Before everyone gasps in horror at my statements, they are not meant as denigration, nor condemnation. They are simply facts, and proof to me that setting ones self up in a glass house is simply a recipe for disaster. I was fortunate, the balance tipped in my favor as my eyes were opened and I learned more than dogs, I learned about human nature.

I will always be grateful for the things I learned, and the friends I have made through my love of the Labrador and the mentor I started with, those who have helped me along the way and those who continue to help me. What I learned is that above all else I love my dogs. If I were to stop this fabulous hobby tomorrow I would still have a kitchen full of the absolutely best pets a family could ask for. What I have also learned is that it is the “Truthiness” as Stephen Colbert calls it, that is what really matters. You are not going to like everyone, and everyone is not going to like you. There is not just one way to do things right, and if someone does not do it “your” right way it does not make “their” right way wrong! And if you do not know something as a fact based on physical evidence, but you “know” it because “everyone says so” then you might want to verify your facts.

Lying about clearances is wrong, knowing about inherited health issues and not appropriately sharing is wrong. Not standing behind the dogs you breed is wrong, burying your head in the sand and threatening legal action when a researcher who has one of your dogs and wants blood samples for research is wrong. Not standing behind your dogs if they do not use a specific supplement that you financially benefit from is wrong. Not showing your own dogs, hmmm …gee it sure does not seem to carry the same weight in the scheme of things does it?

Based on the posts prior to mine I see that my new label is “compulsive competitor” and “commercial breeder” as I have produced more than one litter a year. Aren’t “Labels” fun??!! Darn and I was going for “Ring Fashionista” and hoping Chico’s would call me to be a Senior Model. Well crumbs there goes that dream!

The bottom line is do what YOU know to be the right thing to be a good steward of the breed, just tell the truth, don’t misrepresent and don’t lie about your own stuff, or other people’s as everyone’s dirty laundry will be revealed in time. I think each of us has enough to worry about in our own lives without worrying about “fixing” everyone else issues.

I have a quote I love “Your candle shines just like anyone else’s, and snuffing theirs out does not make yours burn brighter” …v.c.wilson master of the hounds

You said - *No one gets that many puppy calls for pets* ?

I don't know where you live but it's the opposite in the past 2 years where I live.

I'm not touching this subject in any other way. You're wrong about the pet puppy inquiries. They are out there with too many for most of us to fill on the East Coast.

I sincerely doubt entire litters of pups go to India. Every breeder I know never sold a pup or dog to India or Asian countries. They are exceptionally cautious about the inquiries from those parts of the world. There was just a posting about scamming, read it if you haven't.

Know what you're talking about; not only in your own backyard before you post is my suggestion. I suspect you're in a part of the U.S. that is more remote and you're not a well-known breeder or would have more pet pup inquiries.

"Coming out" doesn't make anything and everything ok.

Shine little candle shine!

Labels are everywhere. There are English Labs, American Labs, Field Labs, Show Labs, Specialty Labs, All-Breed Labs, Working Labs, Traditional Labs, etc. In theory, they are all Labrador Retrievers and should all adhere to the same physical standard, should all have a decent work ethic, should all be sound enough so they can function as a working gun dog, and should all have the sweet biddable temperament that makes them great family pets. I personally don’t care if someone breeds one litter a decade or one a month as long as they are breeding for, evaluating, and caring for the whole dog rather than for the parts of this breed that interest them. If that were happening, there would be far fewer labels needed to describe the same breed of dog.

I wont touch this thread either other then to say I live in the east and also get so many puppy inquiries I could never sell a pup to everyone of them.

So where are all these people getting your name from? I have had several e-mails from companies that provide web search listings for puppy breeders. Are they finding your kennel name on one of those listings? Do they do a google search for labrador puppies and your kennel link comes up?

What a PITA. If Debby is reading this forum, I bet she is tearing her hair out. Her article promoting mentoring has been turned on its head. When I got my LQ today, I couldn't wait to see what she had written. The nasty girls, as usual, have taken over and are launching a campaign of accusations and malice. They picked up on the lesser content and taken it to create sensation & contention.

I receive and give recommendations to & from other breeders. You can obtain these from other breeders, past buyers you worked with or veterinarians to begin with. Not everyone has a website. Word of mouth is a good form of referral.

Another way of buyers finding you is through your club affiliations. I send buyers to the club site if I don't know of any pups available through the half-dozen or so breeders I would recommend. Most clubs have a puppy section with rules. I see some rules aren't always followed at a couple of club sites, for example, final clearances, CERF and a few other items aren't available although those are the rules.

Did you actually read Debby's article? If so, you can see that she proposed mentoring as ONE solution to a problem of breeders who have goals other than improving the breed when they breed a litter. Another solution suggested was fewer breeders breeding fewer litters.

Of course, those who have other goals than improving the breed find such solutions to be critical of their "operations," but I don't think that Debby does--from what she said in the article.

Mentoring is not like it was in the past.... Kids and adults alike are in a hurry to know everything and breed the best dogs... Some people think they know everything if they only have 4 or 5 years in dogs.

Experience means taking the time to learn... Having patience when it comes to breeding your dogs, not just picking the flavor of the month because they are the #1 in their breed...

When you ask a old timer a question about what you should do, dont do the opposite... You respected them that much to ask them, dont ignore them....

For some people dogs are a hobby, for some a business... But above everything else it should be FUN!!!

Jen

My what a lot of finger pointing!! Perhaps you would be better to worry about your own lives then who shows up at specialties, hires which handlers and breeds what dogs?

Ok, so I'm new in the breed and wanting to learn. At the moment, I have two boys - one 7 y/o and my constant companion and one <18 mos old who I am showing (and handling) at local all-breed and selected specialties.

I have a wonderful mentor in the breed, but after reading all the posts above; I have to ask. What IS the correct recipe for approval?

Mind you, I asked 'for approval', not 'for success'. I've been in dogs long enough that I really don't need 100 differing opinions on the 'right way' to successfully breed dogs. I would just like to know, based on the above posts, what is the 'right way' to garner the approval of those on this forum that are so quick to point fingers and 'J'Accuse'.

How many litters a year are 'too many'? What factors go into coming up with that boundary? Is it okay to breed more if the breedings are well-considered and thought-out matings between two Labradors who exemplify the breed standard and have the appropriate clearances? Or is one over the imposed boundary for any reason cause for being shunned and whispered about behind one's back? And, who is the one person in charge of determining if a breeding is allowable under these rules of impropriety?

And...kennel help. Hmmm, I'm on the slippery slope to 60, on disability due to heart problems; would I be stepping outside the bounds of 'Labrador propriety' if I hired a kennel manager? Granted, with only two dogs, it would seem a needless expense, but if that's what I thought I needed - who's job is it to tell me different?

Finally, as to hiring a handler. At the risk of redundancy, I'll repeat a sentence out of the previous paragraph, "I'm on the slippery slope to 60, on disability due to heart problems." I'm enjoying owner-handling my own dogs right now, but there could come a point when my enjoyment may be limited to watching my dogs from ringside. Or even hearing about their successes via phone call from a big-name handler. Would I then lose my placement, if so earned at that point, among the 'respectable' Labrador crowd?

I started this post out with the statement that I was new to the breed. As a new member of the Labrador community, I have to include that I have met many, many truly wonderful people through my involvement, however limited, in this wonderful breed. But it is a sad, and all too true, statement that, in almost any activity and every breed, there are those who desire to spend their learning and growing opportunites by cutting down someone else.

And to those folks I say - have at it. Say what you want, point whichever finger you want at whomever you want for whatever reason. But know that, in so doing, you are not adding to our breed, you are subtracting. You are not helping to build a better tomorrow but are destroying through rumor and supposition what is good today. You are not changing the presumed wrongful actions of others, but only bringing into sharp focus the needless and unnecessary back stabbing that scares newcomers to the breed - like myself - and discourages them from continuing.

As for labels - commercial breeder vs hobby breeder; owner-handled vs pro-handled; or red-head vs blonde - none of them have any real meaning. If a self-proclaimed 'hobby' breeder suddenly makes a small profit - do they suddenly become a 'commercial' breeder? Does the title "Champion" now come attached with a prefix designating how that title was earned and by whom?

And...red-head or blonde...well, only my hairdresser knows for sure.

there is not right or wrong answer to what is approved.

it is a personal opinion and if you believe what you are doing is right then why do you care what others think?

Your success as a hobby breeder, show breeder, commercial breeder will let you know if you are doing it right in someones eyes. This is a big world, a big Labrador world and you do not need everyone ones approval....just those you care about.

William Shakespeare said it best. "To thine own self be true."

Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must confess there was a tinge of sarcasm in my request to learn how to get approval.

There are a few people in my life who's respect I seek; but, even for them, I won't change what I know is right for me.