Okay, I've gone through this twice now and I'm frustrated. Have any of you had this problem?

My girl came into season on 10/11/09. I know this was her first day because I've been swabbing her for the previous 4 days. So, Sunday is day 1. I have her progesterone drawn on Friday 10/16...day 6. The results come back in the evening that her progesterone level is 7.5!!! That means that she probably ovulated on day 5 of her cycle....REALLY??
I called the lab and had them rerun it to be sure it wasn't a false high. Sure enough, they came back with 7.5. So, I bred her on Saturday (day 2 post ovulation) and Monday (day 4 post ovulation).
My gut was telling me that that progesterone level might be wrong, so just for toots and giggles, I took her in and had her progesterone drawn again this morning....9.5!!!! WHAT THE HECK!
If I hadn't taken her back in because of my "gut feel" I probably would have missed her. She probably ovulated Monday/Tuesday, so my Monday breeding would likely have covered her, but STILL:( Crap.

I wonder how many of us have missed with our girls, because the lab came back with false highs....

Thoughts?

So if she was 7.5 on 10/16, why couldn't she have been 9.5 today?

I didn't think that a bitch ovulates until approx 2 days after they reach 5 which is when you can do the first AI. I bred one of our bitches in the evening when her progesterone came back 18 that same morning.She was only bred 1 time and I didn't really think she would get pregnent. She ended up whelping 5 pups. I always wondered if the lab made a mistake on that test because I've never had one of my girls be so high on day 12 of their heat before.

I bet your girl will have pups Diane !!

A bitch ovulates AT 5.0 or real close to it, then you breed at the earliest 48 hours after ovulation. I usually breed 2 and 4 days after ovulation and have very good success.

I think Diane is perplexed because typically when a bitch hits 5.0 and ovulates their numbers then rise dramatically so it is very strange for her to be 7.5 on Friday and ONLY at 9.5 five days later...a typical bitch would be up in the teens or twenties five days after ovulation.

Breeding a bitch when she is in her teens or twenties usually results in good litter size.

This is all my personal experience.

It will be interesting to see Diane what your bitches progesterone level is in another couple of days.

I'm going to breed her again on Friday morning, then take her in for a progesterone a bit later that day. Hopefully she'll be at least 14-15 by that time.

And that's correct Linda, I feel strongly that her progesterone level would be MUCH higher than 9.5 six days after ovulating.

Hutch did surgical with frozen semen on my girl. She hit 5.0 on Friday. Hutch did the surgery on Monday. He did a progesterone test on Monday & the result was 22.0. She had 12 puppies.

Yup, that sounds pretty text book to me!

Well, Diane, you know I already know all the details of this situation, but I just remembered one thing Dr. Hutch says--while they KNOW 5.0 is the magic ovulation number, he says each bitch varies greatly after they ovulate. That there is no knowing how quickly they will rise afterwards. So who knows, maybe you got her covered afterall.

Is this the first mating with this bitch or do you have a prior history with her?

Couple of things. No, I'm not a veterinarian nor am a reproductive specialist. But, I do give breeder seminars on a regular basis. Ovulation happens between 5.0 - 10.0. It's not an automatic that the second they hit 5.0 they ovulate. They also ovulate over a period of 12-24 hrs, not all in a matter of 5 min. The rule of thumb is if they hit 5.0 they will ovulate but if I get a reading anywhere between 5.0-10.0 I assume they are currently ovulating or have in the past 24 hrs.


That being said the progression here is not adding up. Have you done vaginal cytology on this bitch? While most of us no longer use it as we rely solely on progesterone in a case such as this I think I would. If the cytology and the progesterone results do not agree it can indicate there is a problem and often times pregnancy does not occur.

Do you have a second lab where blood can be sent just to cross reference if the first lab is giving inaccurate results? If a second lab gives you the same results then I would be thinking there could be a underlying issues. Something along the lines of the corpus luteums not producing enough progesterone.

Of course the other important question is what are the boys at home telling you and what is her body language telling you?

Just my thoughts

You might consider Premate to run along with your quantatative progesterone test or up to the point you run a quantatative test through the lab. They are fairly economical and I have had great success.

Here's an article that talks about progesterone and its rise and the difference in some bitches.

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/Dog-Progesterone-Test-Page1.htm

It's written by one of Hutch's associates, Dr. Greenfield.

Yes, Hutch does say that. He also says it really doesn't matter what she does after 5.0 some rise WAY up other do not.

Your bitch may have done this last time too Diane but not very often do we test again after they have ovulated to see how much higher they go.

We did test her 3 days after ovulation last time, because we did the surgical implant with frozen Gordy semen. She was a 19!

Just seems odd that she would only be a 9.5 6 days after ovulating. Plus...her cytology at that time showed her to be only 60-70% cornified.

Well...just to be sure, we're going to cover her 1 more time.


Your bitch may have done this last time too Diane but not very often do we test again after they have ovulated to see how much higher they go>

I stopped using progesterone test long ago. Even with shipped semen, I'm better off observing, and using my own males to detect "Ready" bitches.
I missed too many heats. P tests are not all that reliable. Each female is different, and many are way out of the rule.

Thanks you guys, for the suggestions. We did do cytology on 10/16 when she came back a 7.5, and her cytology did not add up with only 60-70% cornified. None of my dogs were interested in her either. Now yesterday and today...my girls are wanting to have a hump-fest and things are different!!

We're going to cover her on Friday morning, and I'll get another progesterone level a bit later in the morning. Once I get the results of that progesterone, I'll know if I need to call my repro vet to put her on progesterone, or if the initial test truly was just wrong and reproductively she's responding as expected. (which is what I anticipate will happen).

Hi Diane,
I have been thinking about you today. Please keep us posted when you get that progesterone back, I am really curious to hear what it was today. Good thoughts for your girl getting pregnant!

~Shelley