I've been breeding for 13 years, have a few nice dogs and a few who would not make the ring, and yes, I know the difference.

I have a lovely structured girl 19 months old, beautiful angles front and rear, gorgeous shoulders, a good amount of body, short coupled, nice tight feet, long flowing neck, all in proportion, and so she moves like a dream.

Problem is, she has no head, coat or tail.

I had an aspiring judge tell me to spay her. I really thought she was kidding. She told me she would never put up a dog lacking in 'type', as she put it, the head, coat and tail, regardless of the structure underneath. That she would likely reward a dog in the ring with less structurally than one lacking in these three things.

So I was wondering, is this what you would do? She's a beautiful package.

I've been told heads can be fixed in one breeding, tails in one breeding, coat can be fixed in one breeding. Do you think this is true?

Personally I think that is BS!

Head, coat and tail are very important in the labrador, but I feel structure
should be equally as important. I see so many labradors that only have
head,coat,tail and type being put up all the time and it puzzles me!
I can't help to think that a good shoulder and neck would help improve
elbow problems.

I would breed your girl to a nice dog with the things she is missing,
you may not fix everything in one generation but if you can keep the
structure and improve on the other stuff you could produce what you
are looking for.

Depending on where you live, the weather and temperatures this summer, coat could come on and definitely head can come on as a bitch matures. Hormones change and that changes the bitch. If you have structure, that's the frame for which everything depends on. Let her grow some more and see how she does.

19 months is still young in slow maturing lines. I understand going to mentors, friends, those in the breed for years for help and opinions, but to make a major decision because one "aspiring" judge says they wouldn't keep her??? If she is better than her dam, but still not what you want, keep her and breed her with a stud that will hopefully make improvements.

If all you have her for is to show her and she's not showing well, give it 10-15 shows, if you can't get anywhere, and won't be breeding her, then maybe she should be spayed.

You say she is a beautiful package. But re-read your own words, would anyone know you were talking about a Labrador and not any well structured dog?

If you show and lose to a bitch with proper coat and tail it would be fair. Without coat they cannot safely retrieve in cold conditions. Proper coat affects their function on a single hunt. Type is not window dressing.

I would breed a bitch as strong in structure as you describe. If I believed in her I would show her but not complain when she loses for faults I know she has.

Here's a question for all "aspiring" experts on the breed. Take a dachshund and a German Shepherd and put a labrador head, coat and tail on them. Do these dogs have correct Labrador type?

The biggest structural problem in our breed is poor fronts: upright shoulders and short upper arms. For years I've seen it and you've seen it. Skilled handlers and showy dogs with a straight fronts being rewarded time after time. Head coat and tail are certainly important, but you have to have the correct structure underneath those finishing elements. By not doing so, it is like buying a house with Pella windows, fancy doors and rich curtains...but with plumbing, electrical and crumbling foundation problems.

I like type myself. I thought your first thoughts should be head, coat and tail. She is still young. I would not decide until she is 3 yrs if you really like all the rest of her package. Would think the tail and coat would be there by now, so don't be too kennel blind. You can breed a so so girl for years and not get want you have in mind. The boys can only help so much.

Head, coat and tail only make the dog if there is good structure underneath - the outline of the dog should also say Labrador. There are too many straight fronts and poor shoulders as well as a lot of deep bodied dogs with little leg (giving the outline of a short-haired Clumber rather than a Labrador). The importance of structure is so that the dog can function for the purpose for which it was intended; without the correct structure, head coat and tail lose their importance because the dog already lacks type. Type requires the dog be suitable to perform its work (this includes a work ethic and soundness).

Poor layback and straight upper arms make swimming harder - but they can swim. Straight fronts hit the ground harder, but they can work birds on land. Without a proper head a dog can't carry, swim and breathe at the same time. Without coat, they can die in icy water. Head, coat and tail are not curtains in your house analogy. They are important parts of function and they distinguish our dogs from other dogs that are similar in size and proportions.

Your 'aspiring expert' crack makes me think you haven't had a good win in a while.

As far as the coat goes, first have her thyroid tested. A plain headed bitch is just that, most all breed judges wouldn't know the difference, so take her to all breed shows and see what happens. Avoid Specialties, you won't get a second look, likely not even a first look.
If her temperament is correct, I would try some local all breed shows, and if you at least can get her pointed, then you know at least you have something to build from. Breed her to the stud dog with the most type you can find, a linebred dog, and pray.

Thank you for your thoughts.

To the last poster, that is just it, she has made cuts and placed at specialties, including making the cut to 8 in her class at the Potomac. She is a very lovely bitch, gorgeous silhouette and gorgeous graceful extension and drive.

Being I am from more a field background, it doesn't make sense to me that my mediocre CH bitch with head, coat and tail, produced this lovely structured girl who is lacking in a few areas that are, sorry, window dressing, and she can be totally written off by some. And yes, it is window dressing. I have field dogs too, and not one has died frozen in water. She herself was able to carry back a large Canadian Goose last season at roughly 6 months, so her head isn't useless.

Its no question to me, and to a lot of other breeders that she is far superior to her dam, (and sire for that matter).

FWIW, I kept her litter sister, who's structure is not as good and I would never even think to show her, but boy does she have the dressings.

At 19 mo.'s her head could get broader by age 2 to 3. I don't know how moderate her head is but I've seen girls grow heads after a 1st litter and subsequent litters. Wait it out through the winter, see if her coat comes in during colder weather. I don't know what you mean by *no tail*. Do you mean it's not wrapped properly or is the conformation wrong? Is it a banana tail or isn't an otter shaped tail? Depending on your answers, you'll know what to do. If time might straighten things out, give her that time. If she's incorrect in those areas beyond additional maturation then you might want to place her in a pet home.

Thyroid testing can't hurt but remember, most labradors are on the lower side of normal than higher side. Don't treat for thryoid issues if the bitch has a low normal thyroid result, only if it's below normal. Doing so can cause other medical problems and once on thyroid medication it's difficult to take any dog off of them.

I would give her a additional time if her conformation is correct in those 3 areas & she needs to do some growing in them. Some lines are slower maturing than others. If they aren't correct, remember those 3 are the hallmark of the breed. Good luck.

"I had an aspiring judge tell me to spay her."

This should be your first lesson. Why are you listening to an aspiring judge? No person should spout off this kind of advice. Did you ask for it? If so, then you have yourself to blame. But you should know better than to listen to that kind of in-your-face advice coming from a wanna be. There are lots of people who should keep such opinions to themselves. If your girl made the cut at the Potomac, focus on that instead.

You could not be more wrong. Poor fronts will affect how a dog works and how long he will be able to work. Stuffy necks cannot properly pick up and carry without difficulty and eventual physical problems. Upright shoulders and short upper arms in a working dog will also eventually lead to physical problems. As MRW wisely pointed out,... A dog who works well but is improperly made is a good worker despite being properly made, not because of it. Correct structure is paramount and is the foundation upon which correct type is based.

If your girl has made the cut and placed at Specialties then she surely has some breed type. Sounds like she just needs more coat and a better head. You have to take remarks with a grain of salt depending on who made them. You could show her to all-rounders if you have a need to get her pointed, but by all means breed her to the right dog. Not only should he have the qualities that your girl needs but he should also Produce them.
What troubles me is your remark about the qualities that define a Labrador from other dogs as being "window dressing". Why don't you make a nice hot cup of tea, sit in your favorite chair, and read the standard, and several good books by people like Mary Roslin Williams, and Helen Warwick. I am not trying to be a smart ass. These books give a great insight into not only type but structure as well and what role they play in defining the Labrador as a breed. I hope you take this advise in the spirit it is given...
Advanced Labrador Breeding - Mary Roslin Williams
The New Complete Labrador Retriever - Helen Warwick

I never said the dogs hold up as well over time. I said they work in spite of their bodies. I said that Labs without proper coat or head are hindered in a serious way too and that those features are not frills. Too often type is trivialized and in this case dismissed as 'window dressing'.

Head and coat is very important to function. The one constancy I see in field bred Labs is head. All of them have similar length of muzzle. I have never seen an overdone, cheeky short nosed head. It's not a matter of personal taste, the head can't do the work. I'm not going to repeat the point about coats.

The statement that putting a Lab head and coat on a Doxie is proof that those traits are irrelevant to type is silly. A better example is the three Setters. They are similar in size and proportions but the colors make it easy to tell them apart. I was shown silhouettes of the three breeds, and told I should be able to instantly name them if I was familiar with their proper type. It had nothing to do with color, it was head and substance mostly.

My read on MRW is that everything from the nostrils to the nails has a function. Get it wrong and the dog doesn't function as it should. Are you suggesting she would have put up - in the owner's words - a dog with 'no breed type'? I don't think so.

I think we would all do a lot better if we considered structure a key element of Labrador type, along with some athleticism, as opposed to considering these elements as exclusionary. It's easy to breed cumbersome dogs, and easy to breed rangy dogs - much harder to have a truly typey well balanced dogs that are moderate dogs that are not plain - this is what are standard calls far and this is where breeding is an art.

This whole topic brings to mind some conversations I have had with other breeders, ie the structurally well made bitch(or stud) that may not have the Vava va voom of a true show dog, so is not shown, but their value lies in the whelping box for what they produce. They are very often the cornerstone of a line. How many times do you look at a pedigree that has made some very well bred dogs but don't recall ever "seeing" some of their ancestors in the ring????

I have a bitch that is by all means a very "English" type in substance and head. She does have that classic not overdone/moderate head, nothing that would make most judges pass her over for lack of breed type in head. But she does have a wonderful layback, rear, second thigh, correct coat, nice tight feet and a lovely mover. I decided to not campaign her even though she placed nicely in the ribbons at specialties because I realized that her biggest contribution would be in her offspring and I was right.
I think very often people pass over a dog/bitch in their program because they feel it has no value as a show dog, but could be their best producing dog. It is very often about building a line, not just the next best show dog.
And I agree , I see so many out there lacking in good structure but they look pretty standing and have the overdone substance and coat that has become so popular. When you go to look for their upper arm you won't really find one and so many are straight in the shoulders. They get put up and so others think this is correct.
And truly the show ring is no longer a judge of breed structure or even quality - it is more a popularity contest than anything at this point. I'm not bitter, just realistic!!! I love to show my own dogs and have a great time at shows with friends.

I couldn't agree more about fronts. When looking for upper arm length and angle, some dogs are obviously lacking and you can see it from a distance. Some look as though they have upper arm but once you put your hands on them, it's shocking. They have flat fronts like a pointer. It's really getting bad in our breed. I

In regards to heads . . .. something to think about here: I bred a bitch at 5yrs of age. This was to be her first litter. She had a nice head (ample breadth, nice expression, etc), BUT I can tell you that just by breeding this girl her head changed. I don't know what the heck it was (hormones maybe) but her head is not the same. Her head broadened. Now I can't figure out what happened here.

You have to ask yourself what your goals are. If those are to win at specialty shows with this bitch, save your money and move her on. But, if your goal is to breed top quality labradors that YOU are happy with, then be a realist, keep her in your breeding program for her wonderful qualities, realize that she is not champion material, and hope, with good luck, that her get have the qualities she is missing.

You can jump up and down that your dog has a better front than the dog that won but that won't put more coat or a better head on your dog and it doesn't help your breeding program.

Type is what makes a Labrador a Labrador, as opposed to another breed. A mutt could have good structure. When you look at a Labrador it should scream Labrador from every angle, if any one part reminds you of another breed then it is not correct, no matter how well it's structure may be. Without breed type, there is no Labrador.

There's no denying my girl is a Labrador. She simply doesn't have a good coat, her tail is long and her head narrow. Her side sillhouette screams labrador.

This aspiring judge is a Labrador breeder and that is why I was stunned to say the least that she would dismiss my girl with a simple 'she has no breed type'.

My girl is very tightly linebred, so hopefully she will succeed in the whelping box for me.

If the dog has the head coat and tail of a Labrador but the structure of a Newfoundland, Corgi, or Saluki, it DOES NOT have breed type. Structure is an integral part of type - there is no type without it. Structure is as integral to type as head, coat, tail, work ethic, and temperament. A dog that is missing ANY of these is lacking. Since there is no perfect dog out there, we all have dogs that need improvements in one or more of these areas and if we focus on only a few, we will get exaggerations of some areas while continue to be lacking in others. We need to be breeding for the whole dog.

Also, I rarely see truly sparse coats in show lines. Some have very short tight dense coats that appear sparse because they are not as fluffy as most of the open wavy coats that are so popular now. More coat does not equate to a correct coat or breed type.

Some of the plainer heads are also closer to the classic Labrador head than many of the big heads with droopy eyelids, fleshy cheeks, and short muzzles we are seeing more and more of today.

Excellent! I was waiting for someone to point out that 1.) structure has to be part of "type", especially in a breed designed for WORKING, and that 2.) the heavily dripping-with-coat specimens we are seeing are a far cry from the true, correct Labrador jacket--thick, yes, but also tight and waterproof! Some of the dogs being put up carry such superfluous heaps of coat that there's nowhere for it to lie..therefore it piles up in big, open mounds.

Also, good point about heads! I'm not sure when or why this ponderous, fleshy head came into popularity, but I think it's a mistake to call anything less 'lacking in type'. To do that you'd have to also condemn the magnificent headpieces we see on such classics as Sam of Blaircourt or the old Sandylands dogs...just pull up a picture of Tweed, Truth or Justice and ask yourself if their classic, wise, kind heads might not be criticized by aspiring experts like the one whose comment started this discussion.

If you want to discuss correct type let's do that. But saying that head, coat and tail do not define type, are less important than structure or that those feature are not essential to function is wrong. The owner herself stated the bitch's structure is correct but she has no type. How is that?

The size and proportions of the Labrador Retriever tail can be the same on two dogs, but without correct coat one tail has type and the other doesn't. It's no different for the rest of the dog.