As I was reading the other post (before it got ugly), there was a really interesting point made:

"I would be happy to pay the full fee at breeding time, with all but $200 refunded if the breeding does not take, or, I don't get the minimum number of live puppies. That would guarantee the stud dog owner is paid and still allow me to find a different stud next time around."

Now while I didn't catch the author's name (my apologies), this is a great point that I feel was completely missed. Where is the logic behind keeping the bulk of *our* investment if we have done everything RIGHT???

I know that in my own personal experience, I’ve been on the receiving end of some truly awful looking semen. I ended up putting it in my girl because the numbers/signs on my end were absolutely compelling me to do so. But in the end, she didn’t become pregnant. Despite my best efforts and fifteen hundred dollars later, I had absolutely nothing to show for it. All I was left with was the uncertainty of what I might expect next time out given the quality/quantity that I witnessed from this dog. And in all honesty, I didn’t want there to be a next time based on those facts. There in lies the crux of the issue: shouldn’t we (as bitch owners) be *entitled* to take our money elsewhere? In any other business it would be tantamount to having it held hostage or being locked in a certificate of deposit that might vanish before our very eyes or never mature. In any case it was clear as to why a re-breed was a risky proposition from my stand point. I also informed the stud owner of my thoughts and she agreed to refund my money. I have yet to see it over a year later...but that is another story. Still I think it boils down to my money- my satisfaction.

I strongly feel that if our efforts can legitimately be backed up with proper documentation in trying to get girls bred to the best of our ability, than an out/refund less a pre-determined service fee *SHOULD* be offered if we pay the whole stud fee upfront- standard. It sounds like......well, the right thing to do.

I would never put "truly awful looking semen" into my bitch at all. Yikes! Poor quality semen could indicate disease or contamination. Not a risk I would want to take with my bitch. And once you inseminated her, you accepted the agreement that you made with the stud owner. Remember, it might not be the stud or stud owner's fault at all - it might have looked great at that end. It could have been mishandled by the carrier. If you don't like the stud contract, negotiate what you prefer or find another stud. Don't sign a contract you are going to complain about later. In this case I would have made an immediate phone call to the stud owner, eaten the shipping fee, asked for the stud fee back, and driven my girl to my second choice stud dog. I always have a second choice stud dog within driving distance, usually 3 or more on the list. As a bitch owner one needs to consider all of the possibilities when planning a breeding - shipping delays, bad timing around holidays, and many other problems are always a possibility. Locking onto one choice without a backup is fine if you only want puppies from that dog and no other stud will do and you'd rather have no puppies at all if you can't have puppies from that stud. These decisions are the bitch owner's responsibility - part of the whole process of choosing a stud dog. Choose your stud dogs wisely, but also choose your contracts wisely. Better luck on the next one. We all learn from experience

Have you ever gone to the dentist for a root canal and had to go back two months later because its a major fail?

Do you think you should be able to call the dentist who did the first one and they should give you your money back and you can go somewhere else? Try it.

You are paying for a service. You are paying for semen.

I have been in the same position as 1View where I paid a rather large stud fee upfront and have nothing to show for it. When the first shipment was received, my reproductive vet was very displeased with the quality/motility. Shared my repro vet's comments with the stud owner and did not receive a favorable response--got a second shipment that was just as bad. What recourse do we as bitch owners have if we are sent crappy semen and have already paid out the stud fee? Stud fee was already paid out. How are we supposed to know whether it looked good when it was sent out or not? All we know is that it wasn't great when we received it.

Any stud dog owners shipping semen should find which extenders work best for their particular dog and be sure to use that. Additionally, if as a stud ages his semen doesn't extend and ship like it used to when he was younger, please let the bitch owners know if they are inquiring about using your boy with shipped semen. Let the bitch owner then decide if it's a risk they are willing to take. It seems only fair.

1View is just that - one point of view. From the Stud dog, it is not as easy as some might think. We can't just open the cupboard and take out a vial of semen. Some stud dogs need incentive to perform which entails calls around to other breeders for a teaser bitch.
Waiting for that call from the bitch owner who lets you know at 4pm that she wants it the next day.
Bitch owner needs it tomorrow but the extender/boxes she ordered didn't arrive.
Bitch owner couldn't get her to the vets for a progesterone test but she "knows" now is the right time.
Bitch owner didn't realize the bitch was in season and her progesterone is now 19.5.
Bitch owner has bred her bitch to 2 other stud dogs and she has never gotten pregnant.
Bitch owner has been showing/working the bitch and now she is 6 yrs old and ready to have a litter.

When you contract w/ a stud dog you are buying the service of semen. If the stud dog owner delivers what you are contracting why should they not get paid for it?

I have a few popular boys. I require full stud fee up front. I also have girls that I have inseminated with shipped chilled semen and missed. I have girls that had transcervicals with shipped chilled semen and missed. Lots of progesterone testing done on each. I pay my full stud fee up front, and I request the same. When they miss and the semen looked good, I assume there are other issues going on with her, or the testing was off. When the semen arrives in poor condition, (this has happened to me twice in 23 years) I immediately tell the stud dog owner. When the girl came up empty, I called the stud dog owner and asked for my stud fee back less a service fee. She easily agreed. I would do the same, and I did it once. If we require full fee for good semen it should be "good semen". If it's not good, then I have no problem returning the stud fee less a service fee. Of course, the semen I got was evauluated by my vet and he confirmed it was "crap" and that were his exact words. It should be determined by a vet whether it was good or not.

I have 4 fully paid stud fees that I never used the repeats on out there. Some are from 4/6+ years ago.
There were no contracts.... and no puppies either. These were before we shipped so much.
Do you feel that the stud owners should honor those?

Absolutley! As a stud owner I sure would no matter how long ago it was. Different boy and different girl is fine too as long as the clearances are in order and the pedigree is acceptable.
We (at least I do) WANT you to have the puppies you've hoped for!!!

For 3 different shipped semen breedings, all 3 were a butst..the semen looked horrible on 2 of them and the 3rd stud dog's semen was marginal so my vet performed an implant.We ended up with 3 pups on the implant breeding.
With the one stud dog kennel we had used, there were not any other boys I wanted as a replacement for my girl's next heat cycle so I ate the $1000 stud fee. The other stud dog kennel's shippment that showed up dead at my vet's office came to us with some bacteria in it so I didn't use it on my girl. Again, there was not a suitable other stud dog residing at this popular stud dog kennel that I could use or would want to use. Why would I want to do a repeat breeding of these 2 boys with such crappy semen the first time around ?
The next year, I bred these 2 girls again, using different breeder's boys, we got normal size litters. I might add that I shopped around until I found a stud dog owner who offered a " Service Fee " which worked out great !!

I've been there too and don't think I haven't.
Ate $1,000.00 stud fee for the same reason. No other boys at this kennel and he was old when I used him. Semen was almost non-existent in the collection when I got it. You know what I did about it? Nothing. It's the way the cookie crumbles.
AND a frozen implant that cost me a fortune and no puppies. Sh*t happens.
I won't take a service fee, and it's fine with me if you go elsewhere. It is certainly your perogative. It was mine too! You have options to go elsewhere, so do we all. Why do you have to keep coming on here bucking our system? Go elsewhere.

Just my thoughts said, " Why do you have to keep coming on here bucking our system? Go elsewhere."

It sounds as if some of you stud dog owners replying to this thread think you have a monopoly on stud service these days ? That type of attitude will end up shooting you in your own foot in the end. Bitch owners do have more options these days as far as chosing top stud dogs and their owners who offer more flexability on fee payments. There are obviously 2 sets of attitudes about how stud dog fees should be paid. There is an obvious solution for those stud dog who have been shafted by unethical bitch owners when they don't pay up. CHECK ON THEIR REFERENCES from other stud dog owners who they have used in the past. Is that so difficult to do ?

Yes it is difficult when we try and accomodate and the want semen today!!! Sometimes it is very difficult, yes indeed.

As far as a monopoly on stud service, who needs one? Our boys are used often and I could care less if you use them or not. Why does this have to be dragged through the mud over and over on this forum. Why is this so hard to understand? If you like that boy and want the pedigree you will accept the terms. If you don't like the terms, go elsewhere.

If the crown fails less than 2 yrs later - Yes. If a breeding doesn't take because of poor semen quality - well that's obvious. I expect to get semen that is 65% viable or more.

ARE YOU BREEDING TO THE STUD DOG OR ARE YOU SIMPLY BREEDING TO A "SERVICE FEE" , PULEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!!!

Like I said before, there are plenty of nice boys whose owners allow service fees up front so no, I personally don't breed to a " Service Fee " and you are missing the point I was trying to make. There is plenty of good competition out there to chose from, I don't need to pick stud dogs whose breeders insist on a stud fee up front. If I absolutly had to use a certain boy whose stud fee was to be paid up front then I would just pay it, however, I'm not finding it a problem in finding boys whose owners offer service fees.

I don't know about that.
Most of us have an awful time chosing a stud dog. I know I do. When it comes down to the wire and after checking many clearances I have very little that I actually want to breed to in the end. I start out with a good long list and it dwindles to almost nothing. I'll do whatever necessary to use the perfect match for my girl. I have to much invested to put terms on top of my list of choices. I am doing well so far having speicalty winners so I won't let something like terms hinder my options.

Whatever a stud dog owner decides to do as far as fees go is fine. Just stick to it.
If you want it up front and by cashiers check or cash only, say that in your contract and stick to it.
If you tell a bitch owner on the phone that you don't have to pay all of it up front, stick to it. Don't call them the day after the breeding screaming and yelling that you don't have your stud fee.
I had this happen, it was really confusing and frustrating! Contract says one thing and stud owner says via email and phone something else
Bitch owners should do the same, just follow the contract/agreement that you have with the stud owner.
I think a lot of confusion arises on both sides when things are not in writing and adhered to.