Would you, or wouldn't you?

And how would you go about selling the puppies to pet homes? Do you test the whole litter? Or cross your fingers and close your eyes?

never knowingly now that we have information and test the entir litter making sure you tell puppy buyers Why would anyone knowingly breed like that. im sure people do not agree but in the case of actually knowing you can produce this JMO but thats nuts key word is knowingly breed 2 carriers or breed to a carrier you know about without testing your own

In the old days when test breedings were the only way to try to find, say, producers of blind collies, one did that breeding to find out who was clear and who was not, with the thought that one would have to cull the affected pups, either by killing them or placing in pet homes willing to taken on a special needs pup. The whole game changed years ago. Why on earth would you intentionally breed two carriers together, intentionally creating a good chance of having EIC Labs? If you do so, then you of course would have to test. Surely you can find an EIC clear dog that possesses similar attributes to the one you admire. Even if you for some reason don't believe the test, because carriers shouldn't show signs of EIC collapse, don't do it. Please. Every day rescue has to let dozens of nice unwanted Labradors who were bred with little thought be put down--even the healthy ones. This isn't just a bad color that you would produce: it is a potentially deadly, heartbreaking disease. Do YOU want to be the one who produced the dog who drowns in front of a child or causes the death of its owner trying to save it because it collapsed even in water?

It is not as though this is a rare breed! Look again for a better mate. Please.

Put NOT doing this breeding in one more definition of a responsible breeder. Responsible breeders have to show restraint. It can be hard. Thank you for thinking about it, and asking--and for hopefully showing restraint.

Of course, now that I replied, I suppose this original post was a guise in how to throw stones at someone else who did this. Gullible me.

Personally, I would not knowingly breed 2 carriers.

Are you crazy ? Why in the world would you

I'm the OP, I would most definitely not follow through with such an ill fated breeding, but I stumbled upon such a breeding this morning, and clearly on the website the sire and dam are both carriers. The breeder also owns both sire and dam, so perhaps it was a breeding of convenience.

I don't know, Charlotte. I think your response was just right - gullible or not.

I had a blind PRA Lab years ago, before the test was available. We loved him and accommodated him and took care of him until he died at 11 from cancer. That having been said, anyone that would knowingly breed two carriers of EIC, or PRA, or whatever else, knowing they would/could produce affected puppies, is heartless and cruel. It is not fair to the puppies or to the families. And it is certainly not fair to kill puppies who are born affected just so a breeder might have some unaffected carrier puppies.

Please don't do it.

Hi.. please don't do it. Today, we have a way to never produce an affected EIC dog. You have the ability to never produce an EIC affected dog. The EIC screening tool is useful and quite accurate.

Why some dogs that are EIC affected don't or haven't collapsed is because that dog's trigger(s) haven't been tapped into.

I've learned of yet another collapsing(from a popular sire today) EIC affected lab. This girl is running MH level. She has 'never' collapsed ever in the field. Her trigger? She'll collapse everytime running a rabbit.

EIC is real and it's out there and it's becoming so rampant in our breed because far too many are burying their heads. YOU have the ability to never produce an EIC affected pup. Please care enough about the breed/pups you bring into the world to make sure at least one parent is clear.

Maybe it was an accidental breeding, but if so, why would you advertise it?

Perhaps the person is an ethical breeder whose dogs got unplanned access to one another. It happens. Would you euthanize the puppies because such a breeder occurred?

since i am facing a similar situation, accidental breeding and they do happen
1.MYOB
2.testing the entire litter(already done!)
have a great day!

Why mind my own business? I am simply asking as I know this was a planned litter.

I didn't realize before I referred people to the litter that they could be EIC affected, and then stumbled on it when I went to refer the website. Now I wonder, is it my business to call the people I referred and explain it, or do I call the breeder and ask if the puppies will all be tested and how it will be explained to the puppy buyers that I REFERRED there.

How do you explain to a pet puppy buyer that their puppy may suffer an affliction such as this?

If an accidental breeding occurred though, would this be cause to abort?

Well then, don't refer anyone, focus on your breedings and stop stirring up s***. Problem solved.

well why dont you contact the "breeder" that you are referring inquires to and ask what the plans are re.testing? instead of putting it up on this forum?

If you know these people you referred, perhaps they were on your list originally....... I would inform them and leave it up to them to ask the breeder if the pups will be tested. That way buyer can make a decision for themselves on whether to purchase a pup from this litter and you don't have to feel bad or get involved with the breeder.

When I refer someone to a breeder I don't know well I tell them to ask all questions on health clearances, educating them of the proper testing if necessary.

First of all, I think someone has too much time on their hands.
And really, every litter "potentially" will either have or carry something. Period. If I had to choose the "something" , this would be it.
And this thought process of late that every dog must have every clearance known to man, to justify breeding is beyond ridiculous. Breeding quality dogs is NOT breeding to how many clearances one can LIST under the name ! Check the parents and or grandparents of your own dog, how many clearances were listed there ?

Yes, every litter has a "potential" to carry something but there is a huge difference between what could happen and what you allow to happen, or, not screen for. Looking back generations does not validate anything - you know this testing was not avail back then-stop being silly.
Breeders who do not "test/screen" and hide under that excuse of how many tests need to be done are not driven by the welfare of the pups they are producing. If you have the tools to screen you should be using them. If you know that you are planning a breeding which is going to lead to affected puppies plan on keeping all of those puppies or, screen them and sell only the clear ones.
OP has every right raise the question.
Other posters who suggested informing the families she referred and providing them with the proper questions to ask this breeder was the best suggestion. This way the puppy buyers will be educated and can decide for them selves if they want a pup-this will also save face for the original OP.

If you do get the answers OP please post.

Exactly. These novices that breed clearances are going to destroy our breed!!

breeder

First of all, I think someone has too much time on their hands.
And really, every litter "potentially" will either have or carry something. Period. If I had to choose the "something" , this would be it.
And this thought process of late that every dog must have every clearance known to man, to justify breeding is beyond ridiculous. Breeding quality dogs is NOT breeding to how many clearances one can LIST under the name ! Check the parents and or grandparents of your own dog, how many clearances were listed there ?

I guess the smart thing since the breeding was done and planned would be to test the litter, but what happens if/when the results come back and you have out of a litter say of 8 pups 3 affected puppies. Would do you do? Do you Cull those puppies, do you place them in homes with the potential risks to the new puppy owners, what does this do to you as a breeder with your puppy people, do you just shut your eyes and hope for the best,what does this do to you as a breeder among follow breeders.

Years ago we did not have any testing for hips, then we did, then elbows, and breeders bocked at that, then they comformed, then PRA,breeders bocked at this big time, but now it is the norm, so if they come out with a gene test for Epilepsy, breeders will do the same thing, but in time will CONFORM.

Who does not do hips now a days( I,m not talking Byb) but the show world people. Who in their right mind would breed to someone who does not have this. IF they do then it will come back and bite them in the ass, just as PRA, EIC.

So to the breeder who had the litter, I hope for your sake, you win the lottery and it does not affect you, but if you do nothing it will bite you down the road..
Best of Luck, you will need it.

To the OP... you have every right as a person to ask anything you want.. free country, unfortunatley people do not have to answer. Ashame isn't it.

Best not to refer unless you have all the information in front of you before hand.

NE Breeder and to all of you who think Newbies who breed to clearances are going to ruin the breed...All I have to say to you is, god bless these Newbies who care about our breed enough to use these clearances in a responsible way. It's when you've been in the game long enough that you get scary. I can't tell you how many times I have been deceived by LT breeders about a puppy I am buying from them or a stud dog I have used or inquire about then later find out that this boy has produced epilepsy or any other number of genetic issues. If only we could all be honest about our dogs and what each dog and bitch produces as well as using all the health clearances for the betterment of the breed we claim we love so much.
If I ask a stud dog owner, does your dog produce OCD or Epilespy, Eye problems etc. do you think most breeders would say, " Hey, my boy sure does produce epilpsy or TVD, do ya want to still use him ? " Yet I know there are still breeders who lie about what their dogs and bitches produce. It makes me want to get my own boys to use on my girls just to have some peace of mind. It's sad that is has come to this sort of thinking but what options do we have when some are not honest ?
If your dogs are producing something that is goint to adversly affect the families who adopt the puppies out of the litters produced by stud dogs and the bitches, then why in good consciecness, would you allow your dogs and bitches produce genetic problems by keeping them in your breedining program ?
No, I'm not a newbie but I am tired of the deception going on with some breeders and their Labradors. It greatly affects all the folks buying these puppies that are affected with EIC, TVD, Eye diseases, Epilepsy, Bad Allergies, OCD etc. If there is a test, you pay to get it done and if your dog keeps producing bad things, then stop breeding him or her. If your dog has every clearance known to Labradors and that dog is still producing genetic problems, then you cull him or her out of your breeding program even if he or she already has it's Champion or MH or is the most beautiful speciman on the planet. It's not worth bringing heart break to other families who adopt your puppies with genetic issues.

It just comes down to all about the money. They breed a litter or two just to make some money to offset their expenses. But if you are going to do this, DO IT RIGHT, breed the right dogs together . I am sure the all breeders at one time or another have bred just for the sake of having a litter to gain some money...

Long time breeders and even the newbies are still doing this...
It is not hard to figure out, just go to websites and see how many litters are produced in a year, or even better yet get the stud book for the year and see how many from one breeder are produced.
But remember when you sell to your puppy people, do you not want them to come back years later for another one and they were happy with the first one they got from you.Do you not want them to refer you as a good breeder to their friends who are looking. They will not be happy or come back if you do things like this.

I do not know who this breeder is , but there is more than one out there. It did not take long as I started checking websites and found 4 breeders that have done this and it only took 1/2 hour.If I spent more time, I am sure I would have found more..

It is also sad when puppy buyers call and inform you that so and so breeder treated them or did this to them...
HOW SAD

Lets wait and see when the other tests come out, how much bull sh-- will go along with it from long time breeders and newbies.

If it were me, I would reach out to the members of my club and find another litter by a breeder that you know and trust. Then, call your referrals and suggest that you've found another litter with a pedigree that, from your perspective, is of better quality. Then I would carefully coach your referrals on all of the questions they should ask of either breeder and let them take it from there.

I would be VERY interested in the results of two EIC carriers bred together, accidental or on purpose. Posting that info would hold some water!

I think the more important question is, how many of the pups were physically affected and /or had a reduced quality of life. The gene being tested for does not have complete penetrance!

Before the test, in 2003 I bred a now tested 'affected' bitch to a now tested 'carrier' dog. There were 10 in the litter. Neither the 'affected' bitch nor any of her kids (three are tested and one is affected, two are carriers) have collapsed. In 2006, I bred her now tested 'carrier' daughter to a now known 'carrier' stud and she had ten pups as well. Three are tested and one of those is a non-collapsing 'affected' dog with his SH. Personally, I think allergies and elbow dysplasia absolutely crush pet families and wish there were genetic tests for both of them. Having two copies of the 'EIC gene' is not the death sentence or quality of life compromiser that many of you are making it out to be!

Finally a voice of reason. Thank you Fallingover.

I also read in the UMinn report that the dogs tested in developing the procedure were primarily field trial dogs. I wonder what the percentages would be if they tested primarily conformation dogs.

Go to some of the websites where results of EIC testing are shared. You will find some well known sires and dams that seem to be carriers. To me, that explains some collapsing dogs I have known from totally show backgrounds, and some dogs who had to be revived after collapsing and almost drowning during a short but exciting water retrieve. They were not my dogs or of my breeding, by the way. (If the dog is of all show champion lines, but has a WC or an MH, to me that is NOT a field dog--but a Lab who can do it all!)

I do believe that it is possible that there is a modifying gene or circumstances that might prevent collapse. However, how does that legitimize breeding carrier to carrier and not telling and not testing?

I agree that it stinks that all this testing is expensive, and that we have more and more tests to do if we don't have all clears. However, the EIC test is relatively inexpensive, especially since you only have to test a Lab once. The cost is only about the price of only one bag of EVO or two show entries around here!

I have started to test for EIC - did it initially as one of my stud dog's sons had tested as a carrier, and as many of my dogs go back to a stud dog who, according to the info out on the web, has produced affecteds. Turns out my boy was clear, but a number of my other dogs have tested as carriers, and after thinking about past pet owners, I'm quite certain I have produced at least 2 collapsing dogs, both from that known carrier stud dog and also through different lines, out of my foundation girl Charm.

While I certainly agree that EIC isn't generally a death sentence and is quite easily managed, I don't plan on breeding my carrier girls to any carrier boys unless new info comes out identifying a modifier of some sort so that we can differentiate between true collapsing dogs, and those that simply carry 2 copies of the gene that is currently being tested for. But everyone can make their own decision on the matter.

You can also look at the OFA site for those that posted their clears/carriers/affecteds.
www.offa.org

This result link is largely field lines:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29598

And this one is from Germany:

http://retriever.biz/WebRetriever/files/eic.htm

This is a very short list started by Cathy on this list in May. The microcosm of pedigrees astounded me at the time, given what was on other lists or on breeders' websites as carriers. It convinced me that the show bred girl I had here a decade ago and placed was probably mildly EIC affected. We had scrubbed plans to do hunt tests with her, and a friend who lives an even more sedate life style fell in love with her, begged for her, and finally took her home. She just stops when she has had enough, even on walks in her neighborhood. That was really sad when she was young and energetic. Thank you, all who tested and revealed results. It sure changed my mind about it being only "that field dog thing."

http://www3.telus.net/k9/dnatestlist.html

Actually, since I haven't bred a litter since testing my entire breeding stock, none of my breedings occurred prior to availability of the test so this is all in hind-sight. I contacted all of my puppy buyers and told them of the newly learned information, sent the video and sent swabs and told anyone who wanted to test their dog to please send in the swab and I would pay the bill. Only five of the pet owners opted to test and only one came back affected. Coincidentally it's the one who hunts most weekends of duck season and whose owner actually has seen other dogs collapse and was most aware of the syndrome.

My youngest litter is two years old and the sire happens to have been tested clear as was the sire of another litter. I informed those buyers of the results as well. Not sure who you think I am or why I would lie to my puppy buyers about this, but I still think there are bigger fish to fry, and would be more devastated by a call about ED, TVD, or allergies than I would if a dog I bred collapsed once. Most of the EIC cases i've read and heard about are a single event, not life altering like ED, TVD or worse for the general pet buyer, allergies!

I agree wholeheartedly with this last post! The sky is not falling [over] , this is truely a bump in the road, that can be worked around. And far from , the disaster that ED or allergies befalls on the pet owner when their companion dog is affected with these life altering issues.

I have posted previously about EIC and am sure I'll be blasted anonymously for it again today. I have tested all my dogs and all but one have one or two copies of the dynamin-1 mutated gene (the one that is commonly referred to as the "EIC gene"). In fact, my foundation bitch is tested to have two copies of the mutated gene and at age 8, she is a spayed CH/JH with 31 get from four breedings and enjoys long walks and swims and would retrieve all day in her youth. She has never collapsed. To date, seven of her kids have been tested to be carriers, although at least one dog I bred her to also carries the gene so theoretically 1/2 of that litter has two copies of the gene. None have reported collapse.

Every year around each litter's birthday, I send a general health questionnaire to every puppy buyer and include orthopedic issues, allergies, seizures, and exercise-related collapses on the list. This summer I got an email that one of my foundation bitch's grandkids had a weird heat related collapse, but had no wobbliness at all, just kinda plopped down and couldn't get up. I sent swabs to the owner and paid to have him tested for the dynamin-1 mutated gene and he did come back to have two copies. I told the researchers at UMinn that I would update them with any collapsing relatives of my foundation bitch, but since the collapse was not consistent with EIC, they aren't even considering him a collapser until there is a second event. His owners were a little taken aback by my questioning and really thought it was 'no big deal' but were happy to send in blood or anything else for me. If this truly was EIC, neither his owner nor I are worried about his quality of life.

Even prior to the test being released, I included information about EIC in my puppy packets and after the test was released, have included the information in my annual litter questionnaires. Although I haven't bred many litters, I have not [yet] had anyone report a collapse.

I have since spoken to other owners of noncollapsing 'EIC affected' dogs. Many people have reflected on the past, and suspect that a collapse here or there may have been EIC, but I have heard of very few cases of dogs that have had repeated collapses that affect quality of life in show lines. With the popular stud dogs who have a mutated dynamin-1 gene, there should be many many more dogs that are collapsing. I realize that the incomplete penetrance is the reason for the lack of collapsers, but it is also the reason why so many breeders are not putting much faith in the test.

Finally, it is undisputed is that dogs who do not have the dynamin-1 mutation (i.e. test "EIC Clear")cannot produce a dog with the mutation. If that makes you sleep better at night, then by all means only refer to litters that meet your criteria.
CME

Thank you Carrie for sharing your experiences, but I do have to ask, would you again, now that we have a test, breed together two dogs who could knowingly produce this?

I would not hesitate to breed my "carrier" to the best male out there for her...even if he is identified as a "carrier". Hips, Elbows, TVD, allergies and seizures are much more devastating than the EIC status of a dog who may never collapse even though the test lables him as an affected.

try having that hold up in court when your pet family sues you for the pain and suffering of their beloved family member when it died unexpectedly playing, and you had knowledge prior to breeding this litter that you could have easily prevented this from happening.

I don't breed often and plan to keep a pup or two from each breeding. I try to take into account the entire picture when planning each breeding and have learned to 'never say never' when it comes to breeding decisions.

I know which qualities I wish to improve on with each breeding and aim to find a stud dog that complements my bitch's pedigree while maintaining the soundness, type, temperament and trainability that my dogs have. I only breed my PRA carriers to clear mates because it has a proven autosomal recessive mode of inheritence. Beyond that, I rely on the tools of phenotypic clearances (hips, elbows, eyes, heart), and on owner's word regarding other ailments such as allergies, when making breeding decisions.

I have had personal experience with allergies in my first pet dog that were absolutely miserable, and were ultimately life shortening. I have unfortunately produced a dog with OCD that required surgery at a young age and will likely have arthritis as he ages. I have also produced a dog who is tested to have two copies of the mutated dynamin-1 gene, does not collapse and accompanies his owner hunting every weekend. Of these three examples, the 'EIC affected' dog certainly has the least compromisation to his quality of life.

I have used my name and email address, and stand behind each and every breeding decision I make. I discuss all clearances with my puppy buyers and strive to maintain a relationship with each owner for the lifetime of their dog. I don't have current plans to breed my 'EIC carrier' bitches to 'EIC carrier' dogs, but given the other issues in our breed, I'll stick to 'never say never.'
CME

A good breeder recognizes a dog's flaws and finds a mate with characteristics that will help reduce or eliminate those flaws not potentially continue them.

A Responsible Breeder is Responsible for Life.
One breeder once said the most satisfying phone call she received came 14 years after she bred her first litter. The caller said one of "her" (the breeder's) dogs had died of old age. At that moment the breeder knew she was responsible for bringing years of the same kind of love and joy she experienced from her dogs into someone else's home.

How can that happen if you do not breed wisely.

A Responsible Breeder is Always a Student

Responsible breeders seek to improve their breeds with every litter. To reach this goal, they must devote hours to continually learning as much as they can about their breeds, including health and genetic concerns.

Carrie has answered this question already if you bother to read her response. Perhaps, if you have further questions, you can email her privately where you will not be afraid to use your real name.

Thank you Carrie, your post was well written and thought provoking. Your experiences and information you share are a refreshing change to the anonymity and worn out battle cries we have heard over and over again on this topic. There is no doubt that you have nothing but the very best of intentions and make breeding decisions very carefully using all the information before you.

Thank you.

Just as with poorly educated judges who "fault" judge to arrive at their ultimate winner, strictly using tests such as the EIC test to determine what breeding should be made between respective mates really demonstrates a lack of comprehension of the concept of breeding for the total dog. The risk of having serious issues from any mating is never competely eliminated by using any test or criteria. "Fear breeding" because some nitwit claims that lawsuits will come to haunt you if you dare to breed any untested dog, or worse, breed a carrier to another carrier, even though there may never be a collapsing puppy produced makes little sense. There is a much greater risk of a compromised quality of life stemming from orthopedic issues, allergies, seizures, TVD, etc...than dealing with the potential risk of EIC. Sure, go ahead and test, but just as with any test, prioritize the findings and consider the overall dog. Perhaps if the EIC test is such an important element in the scheme of clearances which must be had before breeding anything, you may wish amend you list to add patellas, narcolepsy, CNM, bleeding disorders, mitral valve disorders, heritable predisposition to cancer, autoimmune diseases such as lupus, immune-mediated hemolytic anemia, hyperkeritosis, liver disease, thyroid issues.....

I do not think anyone was referring to Carrie post, if you look the posts they are directed at someone else the person would intentionally had bred the carrier to carrier litter.

To that person who bred the litter, what if all the puppies come back affected.As that is a possiblity.Remote but still there.

Carrie has does a fine job at informing her puppy people and other breeders,this is a good thing.As, she has kept other breeders in the loop so they can make informal decision on whether they want to refer her as a breeder. But, the people who would just breed two carriers for the sake of it is a different story.

Would you buy an affected dog from a breeder.. How many of you would? So what is different with pet owners.Then it is okay...

So when the test comes out for Eplipesy, let see how many breeders jump on the band wagon and test right away, and if their so called show bitch or dog comes back affected, then what. They will, then say that there is something wrong with the test, or breeders will do a breeding of a carrier to carrier for this too and try to justify their actions.

God help the breed

Maybe show this to your puppy people to have them make an informed decision if they want to buy a puppy who is tested affected from you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wE471AuGE

This made me cry. show this to your puppy people. Would they want to get a puppy that does this, this puppy is only 11 weeks old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBkZZ5QChg

Quote:
Originally Posted by cautious
try having that hold up in court when your pet family sues you for the pain and suffering of their beloved family member when it died unexpectedly playing, and you had knowledge prior to breeding this litter that you could have easily prevented this from happening.


I'm sorry...pain and suffering???

I grew up with and EIC dog who collapsed twice after hard, repetitive exercise in hot weather. After the second time, she never collapsed again and we did not change her lifestyle one bit. There was no pain or suffering involved.

My parents have a 10+ year old bitch who was retired to them at 2 years old because of an EIC collapse. She has never had another collapse, and she runs, swims and hikes with my pack of dogs when she visits. We've forgotten she has had a collapse as a young dog.

While I don't have any plans to purposefully breed a carrier to a carrier, I'm not convinced that EIC is a severe enough disorder that it should be given the same priority as other health clearances, when making breeding decisions.



I do not think they meant the dog, but the pain and suffering the people had to endour watching and living with it. If the puppy died that is suffering to the people.

In that video of the 11 week old, you do not think that puppy is suffering and the owners watching that are not suffering to see this.

Yes, please, go out and get your "own" boys and use them!
Then you will NEVER produce a problem again!
HA!
Get a grip on reality here and come to terms with the fact that these are animals and they will always produce health issues! No matter what clearances you do on them or who owns them!
I suppose when you get your "own" boys and you produce a problem it will be the fault of whatever lying breeders were behind them in the pedigree??
Or are you planning to build the perfect dog in your labratory????
Pick your poisen because there will ALWAYS be problems no matter how clean you breed, or THINK you bred.
Be in this for 20 years and come back and tell us how your little experiment went!

Maybe here is a comparison that Horse breeders face that stems from one horse called Impressive. The horse breeders are working hard to eliminated the gene.

http://www.horse-genetics.com/HYPP.html

Why can not Lab breeders work together to reduce or eliminate issues in the breed.


Maybe breeding to well established older dogs that have shown their true picture of the test of time may help. Breeding to young dogs is not always the answer.

To the poster who has the litter, you say that all the dogs will be place appropriately, that you will watch them closely over the course of their life time, this is a good thing, as EIC may not show up till they are older such as 8-9 years old .

Working hard?? Any clue how they are doing this?? Hmmmmm?
Well I do and here's how.
They breed known affected quarter horses and they test the foals.
If they have it, they put them down and try again!!
Yep, that's really trying!!!!
Gotta love those QH people. It's all in the name of pretty....

Yes, I get it. But the way it stands now, they can do exactly what I described, and they are!
I live in an area where there are a lot of AQHA people. I hear about it all the time. It makes me very mad.
In fact, there is one buried on my property that was a victim of such a breeding. His parents were both carriers and bred anyway. He was positive and although they didn't put him down right away as many do, he literally dropped dead in the pasture!!! He is buried on the spot he dropped. Very, very sad. Maybe someone should have thought about this before they bred those two parents eh?? Nope. They went and repeated the breeding at LEAST 3 more times! Trying to produce a healthy one!!
IMO, that is pure abuse. Who knows if they ever got it, or how many more suffered in the making.