For the purpose of education and healthy debate, can someone of you who say that CERFing a whole litter gives you valuable information explain what that information does for you? How it helps? Assume the dogs in question are all hypothetically PRA clear either through testing or parentage and that is a non-issue.

For example, you CERF the whole litter of 8 pups, 1 shows up with inherited cataracts that won't ever affect the pups vision yet is now not a breeding prospect. This pup was chosen by a pet family to be altered as soon as contractually allowed. Dam and Sire have had passing CERF's for 3-5 years each. Keepers from previous litters from each parent have had passing CERF's. Now you know that someone or the combination of these 2 allowed for that genetic issue to be created. What would this tell you? What action would you take?

Another example, this same hypothetical breeding instead produces 4 non passing CERFs and 4 passing. You choose your Keeper from the passing. Or would not NOT keep a puppy for breeding, sell all as pets to be altered when appropriate because this is telling you something?

I just haven't heard much about folks removing dogs from breeding programs because they are producing pups with non-passing CERFs, just that we want our Keepers to pass. That could be because we are still so hush-hush about anything negative that could stigmatize us and our decisions.

This is not meant to flame, but instead to learn. I mean many new folks learn to read the OFFA page, look at generations of passing hips and elbows, consider that missing elbows might mean the dog is older and testing wasn't common then OR the dog didn't pass. We read back looking to find evidence of any lines producing issues, hoping to stay away from a history of HD. I don't hear this discussed in regards to the general illnesses that CERF picks up.

Would there be one particular result or finding that would halt a breeding program? Now that PRA is ruled out through other testing, what problems are you hoping not to see in your CERF results? Obviously it's more than just cataracts.

Thanks all!

Retinol Dysplasia /geographic folds/juvenile cataracts

Check this page from CERF; these are what we are loking for. http://www.vmdb.org/categories.html
PRA is just the tip of the iceberg; the whole CERF form that the opthamologist uses is all the different abnormal or undesirable findings possible. Some things are congenital; others are heritable. If a littermate to my keeper is affected by some condition known or felt to be heritable, it is pertinent to know in future breeding plans as far as knowing it's in the bloodline and you may want to avoid doubling up if your keeper may possibly carry 1/2 the equation.

Forgive me but my soapbox is staring me in the face and compelling me to get up on it with this post.

It's posts like this(and many others) that make me shake my head. You are breeding for how ever long and you've not a clue what problems are in the labrador gene pool. If you did, you would know the answer to the question you are asking. And we wonder why so many today have such a mish mash hodge podge 'breeding program'.

You would know why it is so very important to know the status of ALL puppies in a litter on puppy eye exam time. You don't need to pay to CERF them. An ACVO exam is quite sufficient.

People come on this forum riding on shirt tails when you should be studying about your breed. Learn it's genetic issues. Learn to read pedigrees. Understanding what your standard is telling you and why, i.e., why his head is depicted the way it is. There's a reason! Learn what form follows function means. Learn why it's important to know what you are putting on the ground, i.e, know EVERY puppy in the litter's eye status at puppy eye exam time.

Your library should be full of good breed books, that you have studied, genetic books, structure/anatomy books, canine behavior books, etc. That you've read these books or watched videos/whatever, numerous times. There is an absolute world of information out there to teach you and for you to study. You don't learn this stuff over night. But so much should be learned, for many reasons before embarking on breeding and putting puppies on the ground.

I digress and you're right. I didn't answer your question. LEARN and STUDY please. You'll have your answers. I just don't feel this forum should take the place of learning and studying your breed.

Guess we all have our pet peeves and this is a huge one of mine, asking questions that you should know BEFORE you become a breeder.

soapbox put away now

what better place to ask and learn from than other breeders that may have knowledge to share??

this forum is a great place for a discussion, debate or whatever.

get off your soap box you look like an arrogant idiot.

Dear Amazed,

And if a breeder lives 7 hours drive from the nearest AVCO and has eye clinics closer than that only once a year are you saying they should not breed because they cannot have the whole litters eyes examined? Or do you suggest they should subject a litter of puppies to 14 hours of driving for an eye exam? What is the "right" thing to do for this breeder?

I think that what is being asked is what is the benefit of examining the whole litter. The breeder that lives 7 hours from an opthamologist is another issue.

After all the time and effort I have put into a breeding - I like to know that I could rule out eye problems that are able to be seen at 7 or 8 weeks.

I have mostly found nothing, but I have had the lesser type of RD (that I would have wanted to know about) and have also had a puppy that needed to be seen again for a juvenile type of condition (that turned out to be okay). In the whole scheme of things - doing eye exams on a litter is one of the best ways to spend $55.

I once had a puppy that at 5 or 6 days had a crusty eyelid. My regular vet thought it should be checked - and sure enough - it was an infection in the eye of pseudonomas and ecoli. If I hadn't followed through with treatment - the pup could have lost the sight in that eye.

There is an important point that was made and may have been missed in a rather lengthy post. People have been talking about CERFing whole litters. Surely you don't do this regularly. I think you really mean that you are having the pups checked by an ACVO vet, not actually paying the extra fee to CERF. The only reason to CERF a puppy would be if you have a borderline condition, and your regular ACVO vet doesn't know its significance in your breed. Otherwise, you get no new information by CERFing. Breeding stock, maybe, but whole litters of puppies?

This could be me you are talking about, and the right thing for me to do is to make that long trip with my litters because the trouble to me and the long trip for the puppies is pretty small potatoes in the long term, considering the benefit to my breeding program and plans.

I have them (litters) checked by AVCO opthamologists, using the CERF form. Submittal of the form for CERF #'s are saved for breeding stock. The dr's page of the exam form is sent in to CERF, so they do have the info for their stats, however.

Dear Amazing, I have to agree with you alot ! I would buy every book I could find. Pick my mentors brain. Ask her about every pedigree I looked at. Listened and made notes about dogs that carried PRA (before Optigen)Litters that had a pup with a heart problem, seizures and kept a notebook on them. Breeding is hard even when you do all you can right. Why do some just jump right in and then ask the questions ? I find it very sad for the breed "we love".

There is no substitute for first hand knowledge. Screening litters with an ACVO using a CERF form is my policy, but I do not submit the forms to CERF. The vet sends in his copies for their database, though. Each puppy owner gets a copy of their CERF form which carries the vet's contact information if they have any questions.

There are too many people who always want to take shortcuts and do not really want to learn or get first hand experience. Sharing knowledge is wonderful, but everyone should take the time to LEARN!

So many of you post that you have your vet come into your home to do your puppy check up and shots. How do you justify taking a whole litter into a clinic for an eye exam? Don't you worry about exposing unvaccinated puppies to something? I guess it will be your policy to have the litter's eyes examined until the day you bring home parvo.

I take the litter into the vets' office in crates. They come out of the crate to the exam table onto a pad which I bring from home. They don't touch the floor or anything else in the clinic. The clinics I use are as careful with sanitation as we breeders are.
Yes, I think about their exposure to something, but if you take all necessary precautions then the rest is up to fate, or a higher power, isn't it? I also keep my dams up to speed with vaccinations; I have to trust the puppies have enough immunity from their dams until their own vaccination schedule works for them.
I wasn't paranoid about my kids, and I refuse to be paranoid about my litters. Kids and puppies need to eat dirt.......

I take them in from my vehicle one or two at a time, never set them down except for the actual exam. They do not come into contact with anything except a clean surface on the examining table. The idea of bringing a cloth from home to set them on is a good one. I'll do that from now on.

I put my litter in a crate on a dolly and they are covered with a crate cover, they are rolled into the clinic ,examined , and placed back into the crate and rolled back out , placed in my van.
You can schedule your exams so that your babies do have their first vaccine.

Those that have been in the breed long enough can tell you of whole programs/kennels destroyed by things like juvinille cataracts, retinal dysplasia, years of breeding and building a bloodline which became so plagued people walked away. So yes cerfing is still important. And for scared of parvo, a opthomology clinic vs a veterinary clinic's waiting office is alittle different in risk exposure. Picture pediatrician vs dermatologist waiting rooms for your kids contracting the flu... Yes it could still happen, but...