I need some thoughts here, and some help if possible.
This is a first for me. I did a breeding and all the pups grew to be nice healthy labs. I repeated the breeding and again got nice healthy labs. First litter was 6 pups, second litter was 7 pups. I just got a call that a pup in the second litter, at the age of 6 months was diagnosed with petite mal seizures. I have contacted everyone who has a pup from these breedings to see how things were. Only this one pup has this issue. The family is very kind and loving. They have young children however who are upset by watching their pup have these issues. They are not at the moment thinking of giving the pup back, but I have offered a refund, a different pup in exchange or an exchange of this pup for another from a different litter. Its their choice. I feel awful though I understand there is not a lot that can be predicted here. The pup is under vet care.
What I would like is thoughts from those of you who have dealt with this type of issue. What was done? Was the dog pup to sleep? Was it able to have a quality life? I just want to know in case they decide that its too distressing for their children and the pup. If I take the pup back then I would like to have an idea on how others have dealt with this type of situation. The pup is on potassium bromide every morning.
I have asked the family to participate in the study at Univ Of Minn. But they are reluctant. I offered to pay all cost of the blood draw and / or shipping. I would also send samples of all family members that I can get to.
Thought anyone?
Thank you

You may very well have others affected in the litters as they get older. My first Lab started seizing at 6 mos....he was the first in the litter to seize. By the time the puppies were 3 yrs old, there were 5 out of 10 in the litter that were experiencing seizures.

I would give them a refund. Hopefully they are able to control the seizures with phenobarb??

I am sorry...I know it is a horrible condition and so heartbreaking to have happen.

Please have blood samples drawn for the epilepsy study !!

You just told my story from 16 years ago...I did the breeding, waited until the first pups were two years old, made my calls to check on all pups-all great reports (11 in the litter) and repeated the breeding. Pup from the second litter started seizing at just over a year. The family was very nice and did not want to bring him back-they put him on PhenoBarb and this controlled his seizures.
After this I heard that 3 from the first litter had begun with seizures-one pup only had 1 in a lifetime, the other had them early on, was not put on meds and stopped mid life. I agree that you may hear of others start.
If this family has young children this is very distressing to them, I would insist on replacing the pup and take him/her back. No child should have to experience this. This pup started very young and most likely will only get worse with time.
I'm sorry you are going thru this, I know just how you feel. I neutered everyone in that line and started over. I kept the one seizing pup until she passed at 12 yrs old. It was hard for me to deal with and I still awake in a flutter every time my new girl has a puppy dream afraid it is a seizure.
Please try and get that pup back.

"I would insist on replacing the pup and take him/her back. No child should have to experience this."

I respectfully disagree. Leave it up to the family - if they want to keep this puppy, let them. Support them emotionally and offer suggestions. Push for the blood draw for the test.

Children learn much from people and animals who aren't perfect. They learn patience, compassion, and how to look out for others with special needs. Don't underestimate the children.

You have done the right thing in offering to take the puppy back. They may end up doing that, but don't push them into it. Kids need to learn that you don't just give up on someone with a problem.

Another thing - others have said you may have other puppies who begin to have seizures. They may be right. I don't know. But a very wise friend of mine taught me not to worry about things that may never happen. Worry about what you know is true....deal with others if it happens.

Just my two cents. Good luck and prayers for your puppy.

I get concerned to hear they are reluctant to do the blood draw. Why? You have offered to pay, they say it is distressing, why wouldn't they want to participate in a study to help prevent this from ever happening again? It is unfortunate and I'm sure your heart broke, I had a similar situation and my heart broke too. Then I had blood draws from all siblings I could contact, sire and dam, and even grand dam all sent for the study. At least I felt that I was doing something positive out of such a sad situation. And yes, no more breeding of that line since without this test I can never be sure I won't re-produce this problem again. Please, even if you have to bring the pup to the vet yourself, insist on the blood draw for the study. Thanks for listening, off my soap box now

Hold on here there are probably a thousand similar situations with a thousand different outcomes, please do not react hastily as you may regret it. I had a pup in one of my litters 8 years ago start seizing at 11 weeks old and the family could not deal with it and the vet thought that he should be euthanized and the family agreed and ultimately I was the one who stayed with the pup while it was done. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life and I have been through alot of horrible things. The vet consulted with many of the top neurologists and because of the frequency and the duration of the seizures and the age at which they started the prognosis was very poor. BUT they all ageed that this was not epilepsy because of the age at whcih they began and it has been eight years and quite a few generations later and I can happily say that line has never had another dog seize since. But if I had come to this forum to ask advise most of these so called experts here would have had me spay everything that was associated with that line, so please just don't do anything rash.

You can probably get them to agree to the blood draw if you present it properly. Tell them they have an opportunity to do a wonderful thing that can help dogs all over the world. That or something really upbeat and positive can make a big difference.

Yes you are absolutely right-every situation is different. I did not suggest in her case to spay/neuter everything, in my case as I started to talk to old time breeders and review the pedigree there were red flags that were there and so we proceeded to try and eliminate it best we could. Once you live with it you would do anything in you power not to pass this on to a family. I would never look back-the mentor I had then was not upfront and even now this "line" is known for seizures.
I also agree that children should learn not to discard things/people/animals that are not perfect. But-have you dealt with a young child crying when the puppy goes into a seizure-it is very frightening and upsetting to them. If the family is okay with that fine, by all means keep the dog however, if the children are young, replace the puppy. I would not take my child to a scary movie that would frighten them and result in nightmares, etc. Some situations in life we can control, when we can't then we must learn to cope. Life is hard enough, watching their young puppy seize is difficult. To the above poster, have your children had to learn to live with that?

so sorry to hear about your current situation with the family and seizuring dog. I to sold a beautiful boy puppy to this family who had a 9 month old son. Their boy started seizuring when he was under a yr old or close to it. This boy has grand malls every 3 to 4 months. They chose not to put him on meds unless his seizures increase more often.
They went on to have another baby son who is now 2 yrs old. When their dog has his seizures, the dad will shield their sons from witnessing it. After the dog stops seizing, the husband will gently take him to the spare bedroom for an hour which is how long it takes for the dog to snap out of it. I guess he is very disorientated and kind of grumpy after his seizures.
At one time they thought about giving their boy back to us but that wasn't because of the seizures but because of how energetic their young dog was and having just had a 2nd baby, it just about did them in. They tell me now, they wouldn't dream of giving their boy back to me and are so happy they stuck it out.
This man was more than willing to meet me at his vet to get blood drawn at the same time I brought my 3 girls in to get blood drawn. I sent it all into the University of Missouri to participate in their program. I sent this family the website of the University where they are doing research on Epilepsy. Once they read the information and told them that all they need are 25 different seizing families of labradors, they got very excited and were thrilled to help out if it meant finding a genetic test.

Some people probably won't agree with this, but sometimes changes in diet will cause seizures. Wheat gluetin etc. Several of my clients had dogs that were having seizures anywhere from 6-12 months diff breeds. We suggested Blue Buffalo dry and within a week no more seizures. It does not work for all but it is worth a try? Also just feed the food and the same brand treats nothing else! Good Luck! Hope it works!

what the heck does a toy getting taken away because your room isn't clean have to do with this-bad analogy.
And yes, it could be all those things but is most likely epilepsy.
And obviously no one gives sick children away-let's talk realistically.
Listen, if you truly feel in your heart that children should learn hard lessons early on then certainly force them to witness things that upset them-that will really teach them life's lessons.
I guess having lived many years with a seizing dog and watching the kids cry that if I could prevent another child from that I would in a heartbeat.
Some children don't learn a positive lesson, instead they don't even want to be around the dog anymore because it may howl,cry,urinate, loose control of bowels, paddle, bare teeth all while seizing..then when it comes out of it the dog is disoriented for awhile.
There are many hard lessons children learn in life-why do we insist on making a teacher out of their beloved puppy.
Again everyone must do what they feel is right for thier own kids and that I won't argue. I am only saying if I bred this dog, AND the family were upset with how the kids weretaking it, I would replace the puppy.

Also consider a bile acid test, although hopefully an otherwise full blood panel was run before starting meds.Did I understand correctly that he only had one seizure, maybe within 30 days of a vaccine, and he got put on anti-seizure meds?

That being said, I raised two boys with a seizing Labrador who was the kindest nanny of a dog who enriched our lives. Dream also saved our family from a kitchen fire when sterilizing baby bottles caught fire. The boys learned to close doors to stairs, move chairs, etc. to protect her or the younger child during a seizure. We had her for 15 years with the boys (one who turned 12 about the time she died) and even Cavaliers. They learned acceptance, compassion, and matter-of-fact helping things. Neither has any inclination to go into medicine, so it wasn't that kind of helping. They learned to help those who are different or have a disability or medical issue. I don't think that they will treat a classmate or a colleague badly if they ever have one who seizes. The first seizures I ever saw were in people, and they were more scary, for I didn't know as much as they did by the time they saw a person seizing at school. In fact, the seizures of our Lab prepared my younger son to accept and help a fellow student fighting invasive brain tumors and multiple surgeries, rehab, etc. The acceptance of my son helped us to get to know a very wise young man, P__, who was persevering, an angel on this earth with his caring about others in spite of his troubles. When P___ seized just before the middle school Olympics, an ambulance was called, but P___ got to come back to watch his friends in the games at th end of the day. To alleviate the fears and affirm P___, the school encouraged him to get up to the microphone in lieu of a turn in athletics. At the sight of the spunky boy, the crowd erupted into cheers of his name, over and over again. I think that our Dream dog helped shape the attitudes of my son and his classmates, for Dream lived life as our family dog, in spite of her seizures. Instead of taunting their classmate who had lost much of the use of one side of his body and started having seizures, they help him fight the good fight. I realize that sometimes a seizing puppy has seizures that cannot be controlled, but that is something very different.

I also am not anxious to have another seizing dog, and would love a genetic test to be found. That being said, my lemon of a Lab was lemonade, lemon chiffon pie, and a gift. I thought I was saving her, but she taught us much, and saved us, too.

the mentor I had then was not upfront and even now this "line" is known for seizures.

When things like this are mentioned... that breeders know of "lines" that are known for seizures (or any other medical problem) it really irks me that they don't post the name of the lines. Every breeder has every right to breed to whatever line they want, but pet owners don't have the luxury of having this information, and more often than not they are the ones that are stuck with the dog for a lifetime. Post the names of the lines that are affected, only then will it be weeded out of the breeding programs for good.

Case in point, the Impressive line in the Quarter Horses. At first it was all hush hush, until many horse owners had problems with their Impressive horses. Now the Impressive line is known as the carrier of HYPP and there are tests and treatments for it, as well as more informed buyers.

Please stop hushing things up. It is not fair to the breed or the people who love them.

Thank you for the thoughts about the possibility of food issue and of vaccine issue. I hadn't thought of that.
This dog can sense the seizures coming. It is not a full body seizure. The dog gets very calm and focused,eyes glaze over, the head bobs and then slowly comes out of it. There have been several seizures. They are not getting worse since meds started, but not getting better either. Apparently they started last year, early winter, and they have now just told me about it. I have not dealt with this in my line at all so that is why its a first for me. I have just responded to the initial notification they gave me, and offered them what ever they wanted to do. I also offered to pay for the research. We have all been to the Univ of Minn web site and i think they learned more then what they had found on their own.
I don't think they are ruleing out any samples for the blood draw, but they are just trying to absorb everything and make reasonable decisions. The kids love the dog and don't want to give it up.
If they decide to keep the pup and they want a refund i will do that. If they just want another pup later then i will do that too.
I just know that others have dealt with this and i wanted to see how others had dealt with it.
Years ago my husband had a lab mix that had grand mal seizures and my daugher was young then and she adapted but not all kids do.
Thank you all for the support. They will be getting back to me in a day or so. But i will push for the blood draw. I have both parents, a sibling to one of the parents and a grand parent. I can also track several of the siblings for samples too.
Thank you

You are welcome. It occurs to me that blood draws for med level, etc. are routine for dogs on the meds, so maybe the research blood draw could be timed for when it has to be done anyhow, unless the vet doesn't need to do it again for a long time. That way the pup doesn't have to be stuck another time for something that doesn't directly benefit him and the family.

I personally believe that seizures in Labs come from some of the top British lines from way back when, including one dog that is behind almost all show pedigrees in both US and UK. I can't prove it, since he is long gone. As with Caesar, sometimes greatness goes with seizures. With a DNA test, we can breed around and through it without dumping whole lines.

I'm all for the truth where genetics go but I also know it would do no good to start throwing out names of lines that had known epilepsy producers on this forum. We could say that a certain kennel produces EIC and it would have been scary but we now have a test . The same will happen with Epilepsy if only breeders would get on board and start gathering blood samples and get them sent in. I fully believe there will be a good genetic test available in the next few years if not sooner but they need your help at the university.

I disagree with the comment 'Do not try to talk them into blood draws', call the University. That comment is not only incorrect but will upset them. They need the blood from the seizing pup, a non-seizing sibling (which she has access to) and then the gravy is all relatives that can be provided. Absoutely get that blood draw, this study should be complete if only more folks were willing to participate.

Mea Culpa - I misread and thought it said 'Do not try' Guess I need new glasses, sorry.

Yes, let's all encourage blood samples to be sent in, including samples of non-seizing siblings which is what they need for the pairs.

Thank you all for the thoughts.
Yes i want to send in samples. I have already been intouch with unaffected siblings and everyone is ok with letting me have access to a blood sample.

I think they will be intouch in the next couple of days so i will take things to the next step. I will also pass on the kind suggestions that were mentioned here and see if any of them can shed any light on this poor baby.

Thank you all.

Good luck, I wish you don't any more affected puppies.

Just an FYI, one thing I did find is that many, in fact most, Veterinarians were not willing to mail the samples in to MO. Even when told the costs would be covered in advance. They drew the blood and then sent the owner home with it and it was up to the owners to mail the blood to MO. Needless to say, this was a high concern to many pet buyers as to how to handle the process. In fact, some refused to go through the process because they didn't want the added responsibility of handling and packaging the blood for overnight shipment. If location is possible for you to be there and have the draws done the same day and you taking them all home to mail, it will ease many a pet owner. It will also save you lots of money as shipping several vials in one box costs no more than shipping one vial. But several boxes, you costs multiply very fast.

You might think about having it tested for Narcolepsy as well as seizures thought of this because of the way you described the petit mal.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I do agree with sending in blood samples.

I also agree that children can adapt, but it is an individual choice of the parents. I've seen it all growing up on a farm. I would let the family make the decision to keep the pup or not and how they want to handle this where their children are concerned.

I also agree with the possibility of gluten intollerance (wheat as mentioned). It is the same as Cilliac disease in humans (although I don't believe humans have seizures from it - but I could be wrong).

Its worth a try to eliminate glutten from the diet.

There is info on this at www.dogtorj.com

As mentioned above - it could be a reaction to a vaccine or something else. I would find out if full blood work was done on the pup and if not get it done.

Prayers they figure this out and can eliminate further seizures.