In response to the TVD/clearance or lack of post below...

SHAME on ppl with Stud Dogs that are available to the public for not having appropriate clearances AND for misleading Bitch owners into thinking they do!

As a Bitch owner it is my personal decision as to using OFA pre-lims etc and the approval of Stud dog owners I may approach about using their boys!!
BUT I feel that if I or anyone else offers a male to "John J Public" we owe it "to the Breed" to have at the least...Hip/elbow, eye, Opti-gen, heart AND for me an EIC clearance to offer these ppl. We need to set an example to new ppl and it gives me chills to see "Breeders" with a male with perhaps at best a hip clearance using him on pet bitches from totally novices with few / no clearances.....ok......off my soap box......

This reminds me of something else. While researching studs for a friend who needed an EIC clear boy(her girl is a carrier), I came upon a yellow stud being offered(and by a breeder who should hands down know better, IMO) publically and it was being said the boy was EIC normal. Upon further investigating, the dog was found to be a carrier.

She passed it off that way saying he was normal, he wasn't affected which was very misleading! You are not normal unless you are clear.
So another beware.

Its not shame on stud owner, its shame on BOTH the stud and bitch owner. Why on earth wouldn't you require proof of these clearances.

Its horrible on both parts. If you don't require copies, then you are asking to be mislead.

I have noticed when dealing with breeders and stud owners that some of them can get very defensive when you ask them for proof of clearances. At times it is like I get the feeling I have to go tippy toe around them or they will get all bent out of shape.

Bitch owners are no different. They lie too!
It doesn't matter which sex you have. There is a very prominent bitch owner that does this on a regular basis. When you buy a puppy as well. Check that paperwork on the parents!!!!

It's a shame it's come to this when others within your loved breed-sport can't be trusted.

Years back, you knew who you could and couldn't trust. Today, everyone has to earn trust. I learned it the hard way. A suppose friend was screwing me regarding clearances until I stopped it.

This is another reason not to breed on prelimaries as most breeders don't send them to offa.org. I will never breed a bitch or use a stud that is not over 2. Prelimaries, even if sent in can change before 2 and no bitch is ready to whelp a litter under that age.

How about PRA status? A breeder has an Optigen B-carrier heavily-used boy that is to this day, used for clears-carriers-affecteds. The breeder never cared and they still don't. So what was the purpose of the original Optigen test?

In many of these posts there are always hints dropped about a breeder or stud dog owner not doing clearances on their dogs and to be cautious. Although how can it be of any help if we don't know who it is to be cautious of?

No one has any rights to say what clearances are right and wrong.

it is completely up to the bitch owner to do homework to find the most suitable dog for your lines.

If you do not have the knowledge to do this then you should not be stepping off into that water yet.

If I have to go "tippy toe" around stud or bitch owners well than the heck with them! I'll go elsewhere!

You can get scammed only if you permit it. I would never use a stud or buy a puppy, if I don't see the clearances in the OFFA, AND they have a CHIC number. IF it is one of the clearances non traditionally posted on OFA site, then I'll ask the owner for the certificate.
I learned my lesson when I used (a long time ago) a "We did the x-rays and they were good" stud dog from a breeder, and the dog never passed the hips. Actually, that same dog is still offered as stud.
Remember there is cheaters everywhere. It is up to you to get the facts right.

Yup and they can and do change AFTER 2 as well! B

Anyone who is breeding a bitch or has a dog out for public stud has an unwritten duty to provide clearances upon request. There is no such thing as a breeder who is so reputable that it would be considered an insult to require them to produce evidence of clearances. IMO, evidence of clearances is a bare minimum requirement for any breeding. Part of being a responsible breeder is setting an example for the next generation of breeders and upholding a code of ethics that sets responsible breeders apart from puppy mills, byb’s, etc. As a stud dog owner, I expect anyone wishing to breed to my dogs to require copies of clearances and do not consider any request to be a question of my integrity. Any puppy buyer that has done their homework expects (and has every right) to see copies of clearances on both the sire and dam of their new addition. The bitch owner must be given copies of these clearances in order to make sound breeding decisions and provide their puppy buyers with the type of information they expect from a “reputable” breeder. As a bitch owner, I am not going enter into any contract for stud fees if the following cannot be provided to me:
1. Hip and elbow clearances that were performed after the dog has reached 24 months of age (prelims are not acceptable to me). I will accept PennHIP clearances over 50% but want to see the OFA elbow clearance.

2. Eye clearances (either a CERF certificate or a copy of signed exam results)

3. If I am breeding a PRA carrier/affected bitch, I want to see an Optigen Certificate indicating the stud dog is clear or the results of a DNA test to clear the dog via parentage.

4. Heart clearance (I do heart clearances on my bitches and expect them for any stud dog I use)

5. If I am breeding an EIC carrier/affected bitch, I require an EIC clearance on the stud dog. If people do not believe in the test, that is their right, but I also have a right to my own breeding choices as I am the one assuming responsibility for the puppies I produce. This includes the right to inquire about EIC clearances on any dog out at public stud without being treated rudely for asking.

6. I usually want a CNM clearance, even though my bitches are tested clear. Unless the stud dog is so fantastic that I would risk breeding a carrier, I want to avoid dealing with carriers of this disease altogether.

7. Information regarding the dog’s work ethic and bird drive. Similar information on dogs behind him in the pedigree. If titles were earned, the info can be self-evident to an extent. I can verify titles earned with AKC.

8. Information regarding any known health issues in the pedigree, including but not limited to: TVD, seizures, allergies, cancer, temperament, etc. This is the area where there has to be trust because on the one hand, the stud dog/bitch owner truly may not be aware of certain issues; on the other hand, there are breeders who will not disclose known problems, and I have found this to be true no matter how well-known the breeder is. Buyer beware.

Everyone has their own list and set of requirements; the point is that as a stud dog owner and as a bitch owner, I have both the right to ask for information and the responsibility to produce information depending on which side of the fence I currently sit. Information is not a judgment or a measurement of worthiness of a particular breeder or dog. It is simply a set of facts and educated observations that will enable the requester to make appropriate breeding decisions based on their own individual criteria.

It is up to each of us. If you have the female ask for a stud package up front. I have never had any stud dog owner not want to send them to me. Paper or E-mail. She is your dog, you ask the questions. I don't use dogs before 2 years either. Lots can change. But when you ask for clearances make it clear what clearances. You have already seen the list on here. And I have had friend fall for alot of things, no REAL elbow clearances, no puppy papers right now. What a way to take care of our breed.

Here is yet another totally anonymous thread stirring up trouble. I wonder how many different IP addresses are being used - or not.

Anyone who starts an anonymous thread like this has a target that they are trying to smear, deservedly or not. Obviously the poster can't possibly believe that an anonymous thread like this would change anything at all.

There are cheats and liars everywhere, not just in the Labrador breeding world. When it's important, it's your own responsibility to verify the facts. It's the same if you are buying a used car or if you are buying semen. If everyone did that then there would be no business for liars. Easy as that.

I still think it is good to remind folks that it is OK to ask for clearance info of ANY breeder, and those requesting clearances should be treated with respect. I have an EIC carrier girl, as do several other breeders I know, and we have had a devil of a time trying to inquire on EIC clearances in males. While I realize there are those who have no faith in the test, those of us who do and would like to ensure all of our breeding pairs have at least one clear in the mix must ask the question. I don't need a lecture on why in your opinion the test is invalid or that we should not be breeding to clearances - I do not know anyone who breeds solely based on clearances; however, once I find a dog I like I am going to verify clearances or there will be no breeding. If I do not ask, I will have to assume that any dog without a listed clearance is a carrier or affected, because I can never assume they are clear. I would rather not assume anything, which is why I ask. What factors I use in my breeding decisions is my business.

AMEN

When it's important, it's your own responsibility to verify the facts.

Nancy,

Aren't there registries for each one of the tests that are now being done? I am not a breeder but will be looking for another Lab in the future. If I know that tests have supposedly been done, wouldn't it be easy enough to verify by checking the registries? If the bitch/stud isn't there, wouldn't the prudent thing be not to buy the pup? Or, if a breeder, not to select that bitch/stud?

Linda

There is an international White List for CNM that can be accessed via the Alfort web site. OFA will list official clearances (hips, elbows, heart, CNM, EIC,thyroid, CERF, PRA, RD/OSD, etc.) IF the owner submits them and pays the fee to have them listed. Copies of clearances and titles can be viewed on the Labradata web site IF the owner has submitted them (no fee). I am not aware of any organization that lists official PennHIP results. If the owner chooses not to submit test results and have them listed on the various registries, the only way to verify clearances is to obtain copies from the owner. AKC titles and point progression can be verified through the AKC web site. CKC titles could be verified through CKC.

One can get an idea of what clearances have been done (which is not the same as verifying) by viewing the breeder's web site; however, many are outdated or incomplete. I personally do not accept that a dog is clear of anything until I can verify through an official source (like OFA) or the breeder provides me with copies of the clearance. Same with titles.

The difficult things to verify are whether there are any health issues for which a test or evaluation does not exist. For example, I don't know that one can ever truly "verify" the dog has not seizured or produced seizures - at some point the breeder's word has to mean something.

What is wrong with putting the stud dogs clearances /paperwork in a PDF file , and putting them on your website! Why do we have to PAY anyone to put them in a data base ? Its called a printable stud dog packet , I do not understand what all the drama is about here. If you choose to do a breeding without a stud dog packet , then that is your own fault , grow up and stop whining !

I do not see where anyone suggested breeders should have to pay to list clearances on registries. Only posts suggesting that is one way to verify clearances if they ARE listed. Nothing is wrong with putting a stud dog packet with copies of clearances on a web site (which is different than simply providing a list of clearances), as long as it is complete and up-to-date.

LOL....I read your thread title a different way.

I have stud dogs offered to the public (meaning sometimes bitch owners I don't know). Early on, I was duped by a bitch owner who contacted me saying all of the right things. She used to show and got out of the game for a while when her kids were in school, but she had a nice bitch with a decent pedigree and she wanted to show her and breed her.

She told me about her bitch's clearances, pedigree, selling pups on limited, etc and sent me a lot of things one thing at a time.

One e-mail with pedigree, another e-mail with eye cerf, etc. She sent me the stud fee and some of her clearances a week early, then she called me panicked one day saying that her progesterone was already past LH surge so we had to breed right away.

I asked her if she could resend all clearances together because I couldn't find the hip/elbow clearances she claimed to have sent.

She told me that they were on the way and I felt that she was an honest woman due to the conversations I had with her in the past.

After it was done I discovered that she never had final OFAs done on her bitch. They were prelims. I had specifically asked her about final OFAs and she lied to me.

Since then I either get copies of the certificates beforehand or I get their full registered names to look them up on OFA's site myself.

It was my own fault and I feel like an idiot for falling for her lies, but I don't sit around posting about bitch owners and the SHAME of it all.

I screwed up by not verifying facts. If you were duped too, then YOU screwed up!

You live and you learn. You can't choose to play the blame game all your life and never take responsibility for your actions. It's not like your bitch comes into season and you have to find a boy in a few days. Everyone I know and every litter I have planned has been planned months in advance. Plenty of time to research everything you want to.