How many of you out there breed on prelims? Both stud and bitch. If you do breed on prelims, why?

did it once to a beautiful dog with passing prelims...his left hip would not pass finals it was obvious. My bitch already had pups and I kept a very nice female, did prelims on her at 6 months and 1 year, she looked ok. At two years old her left hip would not pass. I was devastated.

I have bred both a dog and a bitch on Prelims.
However, I have only done it if the prelims were submitted, rated and passed by OFA AND only if the dog/bitch was evaluated at a MINIMUM of 12 months old. In my case BOTH the dog and the bitch were OFA Prelim rated GOOD at 12 months and BOTH went OFA EXCELLENT on their finals.

A 1 year evaluation is what many countries use as the final ratings.

I am not positive, but the OFA (USA) many be the only country using 2 years (24 months) as a minimum age for a final certification.

Would breeders from other countries please share the minimum age required in your country for a final certification & the name of the organization who certifies them? This would be very interesting info.

I am OK using a boy on prelims as long as it's passing, he's over a year, and his pedigree has a good history of passing finals as well. Especially if you have an opportunity to get him "proven".

I haven't had a need to breed any of my bitches on prelims as we don't breed often and I prefer the girls a bit older when raising a litter. I wouldn't necessarily judge a person for using their bitch young, although I wouldn't do it personally.

I just had this conversation with another breeder last week by email. We don't like breeding our bitch or stud-dog on preliminaries & I don't see a reason to rush things. We do preliminary x-rays for our own knowledge, not to breed a dog or bitch before 24 mo's.

Things can change in the sometimes shorter or up to 12 mo's time frames between preliminaries and finals.

The BKC does finals at 12 mo's & I've heard of Brits who believe it's too early. OVC does finals at 18 mo's, I think but OFA does finals at 24 mo's. We adhere to the OFA standards when breeding for the reason I said already. Sometimes things can change even in a few, short mo's or longer.

There are reasons to breed close to 24 mo's for some breeders but I would rather wait another heat cycle for a bitch or allow a stud-dog to mature even further.

We do not condemn what others do, it's their business. We do it our way, you do it your way. This is 1 issue we agree on, couples don't always agree on everything hehe.

Laura - from what I understand, there seems to be a perfectly good reason for waiting until the age of two where elbows are concerned in your country.

In many countries of central Europe and Scandinavia, final clearances are given from the age of one year. BUT, these countries require TWO radiographs.

- The flexed lateral view (the only one mandatory for AKC) allows examination of secondary changes in ED. The fact that some of the crucial areas are overlaid by other structures makes them difficult to examine. This view does not pick up early changes and is not as reliable as

- The craniocaudal view (required for clearances at one year in the above countries) which reveals evidence of primary disease which canot be identified on the lateral view. It also enables confirmation of secondary abnormalities.

Some years ago, there was an interesting study by the GDC, whose goal was international harmonization on the matter, but...

I certainly don't have any problem with breeding on prelims of good or excellent whether it is a dog or bitch considering the OFA has this to say about prelims, "there is 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)."

The arguement that a dog who passes with good or excellent at 12-18 months might later fail the finals doesn't hold much weight considering how subjective the whole grading system is to begin with. Besides, who is to say that dogs who pass at 24 months wouldn't fail at 36 months? We aren't going back and xraying again to check on them now are we?

I did breed a bitch on pre-lims at 21 months of age that were sent to OFA and the hips were good, elbows normal. She was bred to a dog with OFA Excellent/Normal. She subsequently cleared OFA at 29 months with Good/Normal.

She actually whelped her litter one day after she turned 2. She whelped 6 pups in 3 hours and was a wonderful mother. I did this breeding because of timing and my work schedule. I wanted to make sure I would have plenty of time at home with her and the pups. If I had waited, the way her seasons fall I would still be waiting to breed her (because of timing) and she is now 3 1/2. Because of doing it a little "early", I have 2 lovely 17 month old pups from her whereas I would have had nothing if I waited until she was over 2.

It worked for me in this case but everyone has to evaluate their reasons.

That's exactly the point. Everyone needs to plan their litters based on their own lives, schedules, and principals. Obviously health and safety of the dogs is our priority but there is no need to get crazy about what month a clearance is done if it is going to adversely affect breeding plans. Prelims can be very useful and it is up to each individual when they decide to have hips and elbows xrayed and evaluated.

One person answered the last part of my question, which was, why do you breed on prelims. Answer, owners plans, schedules, and principals. How about motive?

My only breeding on a prelim was almost identical to Cindy- bitch was 22 months- whelped on her second birthday, prelims sent to OFA was judged good, mother was OFA Excellent- sire Good, timing of the litter was right for my work schedule, and the next cycles would have been at inconvenient times. Her final rating was Good. That was about 15 years ago, and I haven't bred on prelims since then, but I seldom breed my girls before they are three anyway. Am I glad I did it? My first homebred champion came from that litter!

Breeding a Labrador at two years old is just a guideline. It is a reasonable average of the age that most Labs will be physically and mentally ready for a litter. Many Labs are not ready by two and are better served if we wait until closer to three years old. On the other hand, many Labs are ready by a year and a half and if that is what works best with the breeder's life and schedule then that is something they can consider. It is up to the individual breeder. Having the option of getting OFA consultation on hips and elbows before breeding is a wonderful tool and very helpful to those that decide for whatever reason to breed before they can get finals done. I don't think anyone would begrudge a breeder for breeding on prelims if the alternative was doing the breeding without them. The controversy is perhaps those breeders who start breeding all of their on their first heat without any regard for emotional or physical maturity and use prelims as a way of justifying a breeding program with such early breedings.

I use the Penn Hip system, as you have definite answers much earlier!

I imagine the motive would be to have puppies.

mo⋅tive  [moh-tiv] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb, -tived, -tiv⋅ing.
–noun
1. something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a certain thing, etc.; incentive.
2. the goal or object of a person's actions: Her motive was revenge.
3. (in art, literature, and music) a motif.

I just bred to a boy who has prelims. He is 18 months, the bitch is 24 months and final OVC clearances. His prelims were excellent and to my knowledge, the lines are not known for orthopedic issues. He also has all of his other clearances.

I did it for a few reasons. Timing being one of them. I am finished work (contract is up) the end of Feb. and the litter is due the first week of March. Also, I had been looking at possible sires for a future litter and when I found out about this boy, it all seemed to click and my gut said, yes, this is the one.