Hello
a lab who is in formation for guide dog has collapsed 2 times. It looks at EIC so the dog was tested and the result just come back as carrier. So my question : is it possible that a carrier collapses ? Of can we imagine it's more someting as epilepsy even if no case of epilepsy is know in the line (the dog will be retired from the formation as guide dog of course)
Thank you

So my question : is it possible that a carrier collapses ?
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Not from EIC

Has pup thoroughly been tested for everything else, is poop fine? I had a pup that used a notable vet at Univ. of Purdue, pup collapsed and they thought it was Narcolepsy, tested negative, called it epilepsy.

The owner in passing mentioned stool was constantly loose but tested negative for everything. I insisted they draw electrolytes (Sodium and Potasium blood content) and treat for Coccidia as my pastures have coccidia. Pup's potassium was way too low, after given potassium and treated for coccidia, she is now 2 years old and has never had an collapse episode, her electrolytes were way off was the real issue.

So, don't discontinue your line of wonderful guide dogs until you know for sure what the issue is. The vets are just guessing at this point. I've never heard of an EIc carrier collapsing, and it especially sounds like this dog is not doing extreme, prolonged exercise.

Thank you for your advice and for the tip about potassium and coccidia. I'll see with the centre of guide dogs about the stool.

Who did the EIC test?

It was made by Laboklin in Germany who has the license agreement for Europe.
I've also contact the university of Minnesota and they confirm me that EIC carrier and clears cannot collapse from EIC. So we need to search another origin for his collapsing

Are you certain that researchers said that a dog who tested as a carrier cannot collapse? Tests can be inaccurate for many reasons, including just mistakes. If a test and the clinical picture do not agree, the first step is to retest. In addition, genes can continue to mutate from the time the test was developed. A good researcher would want to explore the information rather than dismiss the result as impossible.

Here is what they say "Thank you for contacting us about our genetic test for EIC. We have looked at collapse data from well over 1,000 clear and carrier dogs. We have not been able to detect any increased risk for collapse with exercise in the carrier population. At present, it appears most likely that carriers that are exhibiting collapse symptoms are collapsing from a different cause, and not due to their EIC carrier status"
In fact the guide dog society will reform the dog as of course they cannot take the risk to complete his formation with the risk of collapsing (for a reason or another)

Wrong! Alot of carriers collapse, the reason the test is questioned by many breeders.

Breeders are questioning the validity of the test because there are AFFECTEDS who have never collapsed. I have never heard of any scientific evidence that there are carriers that DO collapse from EIC. There are other types of conditions (heat stroke, etc.) that are unrelated to EIC that can cause a dog to collapse.

well, if the researchers dismiss the evidence without investigation, how would any collapsing carriers ever be found--even if they existed.

probably what the researchers really mean is that they don't have money for followup research.

I think if people want reliable information regarding EIC and the test, they should just contact the U of MN directly. I have never had issues getting a response from them and that way answers to questions would be accurate. This misinformation regarding EIC on this forum just leads to confusion and emotionally based responses.

I have asked the people at Minnesota this exact question. The rate of carriers collapsing in a manner consistent with EIC is no higher than for clear dogs. Both are very low, about 1%.

and just what is the rate of "affected's" NOT collapsing??????
Pretty high I'd say!!!

From the U of M's EIC web site http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/taylor2008/home.html:

"Affected dogs exhibiting symptoms of collapse are usually described as being extremely fit, muscular, prime athletic specimens of their breed with an excitable temperament and lots of drive."

Talk to field line breeders. As much as some would have you believe, this isn't descriptive of most show line bred dogs. From what I know, it's the Affecteds out of show lines that are less likely to have collapsed.

And from this page of the info: http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eicgene/home.html

"Thus far our genetic testing has identified more than 400 dogs greater than three years of age with the E/E genotype. Analysis of available descriptions of these dogs shows that more than 80% of them have the classical signs of EIC, and have had at least one, but usually multiple well-documented collapse episodes."

This info is from a couple of years ago now, so their numbers may have changed. Nonetheless, lots of Affected's don't collapse. Doesn't mean they can't pass the gene on and have affected progeny, unless bred to a clear mate.

What part of this don't you get, Doubting Thomas?

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Not wrong! Read the research!

I don't believe all of the *research* or the genetic *test*. There is more to EIC than that one gene. I'm finished on here. I will not argue b/c we're all allowed to have an opinion.

There's no need for argument. Read the information; it is what it is. Amazing that some people know more about genetics and this syndrome than the scientists and medical researchers who did the gruntwork and found the gene.........

We can all have opinions; but facts are facts. You can't argue about black and white.

oh boy, you don't understand science at all, wag the dog.

At one point in time, in many people's "opinion", the world was flat, natural disasters were caused by the wrath of the gods, and AIDs was transmitted by merely being in the same room with an affected person. In many people's "opinion", a huge open wavy coat is desirable on a Labrador, despite the fact the standard calls for a short dense tight waterproof coat (with only a slight wave being acceptable).

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but let's not confuse opinions with facts or even educated guesses.

Here is a link to a comprehensive list of other things to look for in retrievers that collapse

www.dvm360.com

search for "exercise intolerance in retrievers"