Hi,
I have noticed that what minimum clearances folks "expect" in show breedings is somewhat different than what Field folks "expect".

It seems that Field folks want Hips,Cerf,EIC,CNM,and sometimes Elbows.

While Show want Hips/elbows/Cerf.and Optigen for PRA.

I realize that some folks suspect that EIC and CNM are more prevalent in the Field lines.. but is PRA more prevalent in Show lines??

Not trying to stir up trouble, honestly just relatively new to this all and guessing that the PRA is picked up eventually with Cerf so folks don't to Optigen??
Not sure I understand.
Thanks in advance!

I currently breed both types and think all of the clearances are necessary. PRA might be caught in CERF but probably later in life after the dog has been bred. In my opinion, most of the field people do not do adequate clearances. The minority are even doing EIC. Elbows are more important for a hard driving field dog, and yet many do not clear elbows.

Many show people are doing EIC or requiring it from the studs they use. Many show people are not posting their EIC results on their websites for whatever reason, but it is playing into their breeding plans.

In general (broad generality), show people are more responsible with their breedings not only with health clearances but with selling on Limited. The rescue people tell me the shelters are full of field type Labradors, most with genetic issues. These probably were bred by BYB, but where do BYB get their dogs in the first place - from Field breeders.

I am not advocating breeding to clearances only, just breeding responsibly. I have a breeding planned to an EIC carrier stud for my EIC clear girl because the stud has what my girl needs.

Also, you did not mention cardiac clearances which I feel are very important. I have yet to meet a field breeder who does cardiac clearances.

I know a field breeder who does cardiac. They also take their pups to Pat Hastings for evaluation from time to time. I have not met a field breeder that breeds on prelims. And I know of no field breeder that does not take work ethic into consideration when doing a breeding. I know of very few show breeders who evaluate work ethic and use it as criteria in breeding decisions.

Whether breeding from show or field lines, there are always going to be breeders that are more responsible than others. And the definition of a responsible breeder is very subjective.

It sound like you know of a very responsible field breeder. Do you know of any field breeders who sell on Limited so as not to fill rescues with unwanted pups? This is truly my beef with field breeders.

I also agree about show people not testing for working ability. I like titles on both ends of my dogs.

There is a poll going on at one of the field sites right now. Respondents are asked what clearances they want to see in a dog they purchase.

Hips 96
Elbows 78
EIC 91
CNM 85
RD-OSD 85
PRA 25
Cardiac 15

This has some similarities and some differences from what the same poll would show for show breeders, I suspect. The differences are probably partly due to real or presumed differences in the prevalences of certain defects in the two gene pools, but also due to the expectations for the dogs. I suspect a carrier of TVD would be "outed" much quicker in field lines and would be eliminated from the gene pool; in any case there doesn't seem to be much of it in field dogs. EIC is of higher significance to someone who wants to train the dog in the field. The prevalence of the gene doesn't seem to be that different, but fewer E/E dogs from show lines collapse. And CMN is much more prevalent in the field lines. I'm not sure that the elbow scores would be that different, based on having read so many comments that show breeders will use a dog with a grade 1 elbow. Apparently PRA is not as prevalent, because I'm sure field breeders would take it seriously; marking is the most important attribute in FTs, and dogs are often 5 or 6 before they really hit their stride.

One thing about breeding field dogs- it is much more of a crap shoot as to which of a litter of 8 week old pups will turn out to be the winners. The greatest field bitch of recent times, NFC Candlewoods Tanks Alot, was GIVEN AWAY because she didn't sell. The breeder later bought her back. Lottie's potential became obvious only later, when she entered training.

A good point. I think I understand but I'm going to try to minimize my thoughts.

EIC testing has become more popular in show lines but as I said to a friend today, there are minimal collapses in the show lines, much more in field lines. I don't know of 1 dog that has collapsed. How valuable is a genetic test for *1 gene* which might not be the entire package, to the show community?

I feel like it's being shoved down our throats.

As for not having elbow clearances on many field dogs, do they not get ED? There is little Optigen testing either. Do they not have PRA? Of course they have both. Some also supposedly *point* except Labs are not pointing dogs.

I said more than I planned to. OP, you understand the basics. Lets see who will reply to your questions.

TVD KILLS whereas an EIC affected dog has the potential to live a full life with modifications. That "poll" 91 : 15 is very backwards IMO.

The whole point is that breeders are doing risk assessment. EIC is present in both types of Labs. You don't know of any dogs that have collapsed. My guess is that you don't do advanced field work with your Labs and don't know many people who do. I do so and I know of many more collapsing dogs from show lines than I know of TVD cases. So I am more concerned about EIC, which may end a dog's career in the field, than I am about TVD. I am not belittling the TVD problems- I just don't happen to have lines that have exhibited it, nor do my friends. How many of us have used the test for narcolepsy that has been available for a long time? I haven't because I've never known of a dog that had it. Nor have I tested for CMN because I don't know of any dog related to mine that have had it. The only dogs I've tested for RD-OSD have been ones with retinal folds. If I've been examining eyes for years and never seen a related dog with a retinal fold, I don't do the test. We will all have to make these types of decisions as more tests become available. Possibly the field work has put enough pressure on hasving good elbows that the field lines don't have as much of a problem

In the past year I have been contacted by four different families looking to replace the puppy that they lost or had given back to the breeder because the pup was diagnossed with TVD. It is out there and I'm afraid it is only a matter of time before more and more breeders will produce a TVD pup. Everyone needs to be doing Heart - Echo/Color Doppler clearances on their breeding stock. Even with clearing your dogs with Echo/Color Doppler, there is still a chance you can produce a pup with TVD. The echo heart clearance is the best tool that we have right now to assure that your breeding stock does not have TVD, untill they come up with the DNA test. If you do produce a pup with TVD you need to participate in the study that Dr. Meg Sleeper is conducting at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine so a DNA test will be available in the near future. Don't fool yourself it is out there and it is a real threat to our breed.

I belong to a HRC club in which members are registered both AKC and UKC. Their big problem of the moment is EIC and most of the members in my club are testing for it because they have either produced it or bred into it. Most of these breeders also only do hip OFA's. I don't think any have done optigen testing or elbows. Some have done a cerf here or there, but "are you kidding, you have to do that test every year" is what I have been told. What is ironic to me is the fact that these are the same people who are doing several hundred yard blinds in preparation for tests. Always makes me laugh. Would think good eyesight would be a higher priority.

When I first got into Labs way back when, one of the (if not the) leading field dog was one River Oaks Corky. You could pick up the Sunday paper in just about any midwestern to western city and see ads for lab puppies sired by this dog. He was the big deal of the day. Guess what - he was dysplastic and everyone knew it but they bred him anyway. There have been a couple of comments here denigrating show people and I just want to set the record straight. It does not matter how drop dead gorgeous a show stud dog is or how much he is winning in the ring. If he doesn't have hip and elbow clearances he won't get used. Nor will he get used much if he is a known producer of TVD. Field people may get a bunch of clearances on their stud dogs, but the result doesn't seem to influence much what happens after that.