just had CERF testing done a week ago and found that my 4 yr. old male had a nearly noticable wave in his retina. He cleared CERF, but after testing his 10 month old daughter who had been examined also and was found to have geographic RD folds, it was determined that the stud is the carrier of recessive autosomal gene and recommended he not be bred. First three CERF tests were clear. Anyone with a simialr scenario? Heartbreaking, as this dog is nearly finished and perfect on paper in every other way. Disappointment is not even a description. TIA

Your stud probally had it all along and your eye doctor missed it. Your dog will pass it as it is hereditary. I cant believe you passed CERF with a fold as folds are not allowed to get a CERF number.

http://www.vmdb.org/dx.html

THE STUD DOES NOT HAVE A FOLD, BUT OFFSPRING DID. LITTERMATE OF AFFECTED PUP IS NORMAL. VET SAID THE SIRE WAS NOT AFFECTED WITH A FOLD SO HE WILL PASS.

This is an example of why it is very important to examine whole litter's eyes by an ACVO at 7-10wks. The young bitch had these all along. You would've known about this when she was a wee one had you done so.

Regardless of him passing, he will not be bred again. Three previous CERF normal and same vet did all 4.

A bitter lesson well learned. have a pup from a different breeding leaving next week to her new home. Had her tested and CERF clear!! I will be checking all from now on. First time for this here. Stud is an import

I would have him tested through Optigen using their RD/OSD Test. It would be interesting to see what type of results you get back.

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_rdosd.html

Yeah, I'm sorry~ It is important to know the status of all littermates. Even the clear ones at puppy exam time can be carriers if they have littermates affected.
The OptiGen RD/OSD is another great screening tool for those that have dealt with this issue in their line(s) through the years.

Years ago Dr. Aguirre co-authored a paper with Dr. Mary Stankovics et al describing just such a scenario, presumably at least partially on Seeing Eye dogs: RD showing up in dogs clear since litter exams. I didn't quite buy it, but now wonder. As others say, an Optigen test sounds like a very good tool in this situation, with perhaps the option of breeding him to only clears on this test.

This dog in this thread wasn't cleared as a youngster in his litter from how I'm reading the OP's first post? If this dog had been examined, folds would have been seen and noted thus alerting. Litter exam revealing folds can and usually do disappear(hence the clear CERFS a few times only to resurface later at some point such as OP's boy.

"If this dog had been examined, folds would have been seen and noted thus alerting."

The point of Aguirre's article was that it is not necessarily so. This is not news. I do remember asking him in 1999 ,"then why are we paying you to do our litter exams?" I think the answer was that some would be caught, along with other abnormalities. That being said, not all folds are hereditary or related to RD--but I'd assume that they are until proven otherwise, with perhaps an exam 6 months or so after the litter exam but still well under the 18 mo age. Believe me, I've washed most of my Labs out of breeding over the years due to some problem or another, so I am not one to say breed just anything. I will try to google the article.

The Samoyed, like the Labrador Retriever, is a breed with complete Retinal Dysplasia and sometimes associated skeletal deformities. We had two rescue pups in a litter of 7 who appeared to be affected, although the one passed an eye exam at about 10 weeks, but has the short crooked front legs of a dwarfed Lab at maturity. She is owned by a family whose two daughters are studying to be vets, so is in good hands.

http://www.samoyedhealthfoundation.org/diseases/retinal-dysplasia-folds

Link to abstact of 1999 article on RD in Seeing Eye population, which also says that litter eye exams are not accurate until 10 weeks:
"Our findings indicate that, in most cases, the geographic form of retinal dysplasia is not present in dogs prior to 10 weeks of age/"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11397243?dopt=AbstractPlus

The Optigen test does not test for Geographic RD. They even state on their site its for OSD. Geographic RD is not OSD related so this test will not help in this case. A eye exam is the only current way to catch this.

Here is a quote from Optigen site about their OSD RD test.

"Geographic retinal dysplasia may represent a different, possibly inherited, disease."

Correct, the Optigen test does not include this RD problem, only if related to OSD.

Thanks for clarifying. Mostly, I am disagreeing that a litter exam on the stud absolutely could have prevented all this. Odd truth: Folds (not GRD to my knowledge) are cerf-able in many other breeds that don't have OSD. If someday it is determined that the two forms of RD are not related, mere folds in Labs may someday (MAY or may not) be cerf-able in the future, particularly with a negative on the OSD form of RD.

I don't know the poster or dog, and I don't know the line. I hate the thought of producing a chondrodysplastic dog, being unhappy that rescued pups turned out to be so in spite of three vets in three different practices telling me the problem I saw in the legs was nutritional. (Furthermore, one of the two Lab pups with OSD does not have folds!) I do believe in a breeder or stud owner gathering information. Granted, I neuter enough dogs doing rescue that I'd rather see a dog neutered than producing bad things.

To me, a fold in sire may or may not be the catastrophe the stud owner is saying, and one can wait and see perhaps before neutering. Mostly, I am disagreeing that a litter exam could have prevented all this. I'd sure want his other pups examined, however, if possible.

The pup with GRD is not breedable unless at least two different and trusted ACVOs disagree on the diagnosis over the next very few months. I don't just get second opinions, I try for tie breakers. And when in doubt, don't breed, as above two posters may imply, and as stud owner is doing.

The OSd form is not into play here. Simply RD. I have been contacted in response to my emails of the stud dituation to three of the 6 folks that have purchased pups form this stud in his litter. Same litter that produced the Geographic affected pup. Three now at 10 months are checked clear of any problems and have urged the other three to test. They were purchased as pets, so they hadn't planned on going though all of that, but asked them to get the CERF and I would pay just to see if only one {I pray} is affected. I have head too that folds may be evident in 7-8 week olds, but gnerally improve and are not evident again until later. This male was purchased at a much older time than a new pup, so had no testing done from the breeder. I had him tested just after a year, the again each year. Now just turning 4 he has a barely noticable wave per the AVCO vet who examined him all the other times. The Optifen gene marker will not ahve anything to do with this form. Pups are perfectly proportioned with no skeletal abnormalities, but ironically the girl that is affected has the worst bite I have ever seen and when checked at 7 weeks it was a perfect scissor bite, so I guess I got the bad egg here, but better me than someone else I have to say. Just so heartwrenching and must do the right thing and not pass it on.

Labs do not pass CERF when they have retinal Folds because it is linked to OSD. If the dog clears the DNA for OSD, isn't it good enough to clear that dog for breeding?

I had a pup that had simple folds (puppy folds). Sold him as a pet. Does that mean if I had tested him for RD/OSD they (CERF) would have passed him? Do you send in your Cerf report with the Optigen report too?

You said in your post that CERF will now pass a dog with folds with a negative Optigen RD/OSD test, just wondering where you got that information? I looked on the CERF website and it does not mention it, though it looks like that website has not been updated in a long time. TIA!

As someone who has CERFed every litter for almost 20 years I do have to agree that every puppy in a litter needs to be examined.

Like so many other problems both parents are involved. Since it is a recessive gene you can have a completely clear litter that is all carriers. That's why your stud dog produced but didn't have a fold. It's like breeding a yellow factored black to a yellow. All carry the yellow gene but only the yellow ones show it.

If you continue this for your entire breeding program you'll know which females in your line carry.

How many people ask if the puppies sired by that boy you've picked out for that special litter have been clear?

I'm sure Peggy Stevens will chime in (hint, Peggy :-) as she knows so much more about this than I.

Hi...My information is right in front of me w/ the newest ACVO paper release.

To the person who said all RD is autosomal recessive. Simple folds are.... Geographic/detached w/ out skeletal defects is too. However, RD-folds/geographic/detached with skeletal defects is presumed incomplete dominant.

I had been visiting w/ Peggy Stevens about this and she had been saying they should let us pass w/ simple when I received the news they are now. She was the first one I shared the news with~

I am looking at his paperwork right now and the ACVO vet marked it as just folds not geographic or detached. Is this simple folds or am I wrong?

Sherry,
Is this the ACVO newsletter for this month or a paper published? Please share authors, title, date, and journal and/or website. Otherwise it is hard to request some nebulous title from the vets.
Thanks.

Hi. It's (c)2009, American College of Veterinary Ophthalmolgists paper on the labrador retriever. It shows our disorders, inheritance mode, reference and breeding advice...

Then it goes into detail on each disorder. It is 7 pages long.

They obviously have this type of print out for each breed.

I received this from my ACVO~ Like I stated already, I am sure if you call CERF or asked your own ACVO for the most recent 2009 updated paper on the LR, you'll get one.

Isn't there a book that CERF puts out? This is probably in there if it has been updated. This new paper hasn't been out long. I received mine end of last year.

Here is what I know. I produced a litter about 12 years ago in which several pups had simple folds- 1-3 in the lower part of the eye. My ACVO vet told me they were puppy folds, that they would never cause trouble and that they would disappear so that as an adult dog, the dogs would be able to pass CERF. Being a cautious sort, I decided to test what the vet was saying. I kept a male on a co-ownership and test bred him to a related girl that also had had the simple folds. We got no OSD and only one pup with simple folds. So they do not act like a simple recessive. I had plans to do more such breedings, but after that first litter I had very few females with the trait ( I didn't own the one we first used), so it was another 6 years or so before I could do another folds to folds breeding. Again, we got no OSD and one of the four pups had folds. When the RD-OSD test became available I tested one of the dogs that had folds and both parents. All were clear for RD-OSD. None of the resulting puppies have had vision problems. From my personal experience, I can say with certainty that there are two types of folds in Labs and that an experienced ACVO vet has no trouble telling them apart. One is associated with RD-OSD and the other is not associated with any pathology that I've been able to discern.

A question remains, however, about geographic folds. I have corresponded with people who have had geographic folds in dogs that were negative for RD-OSD, which would indicate that there is a third type of folds. I have no experience with geographic folds, either the RD-OSD type or the other, and can't comment on their significance.

I am glad to hear that CERF has decided to honor the RD-OSD test. I discarded the dogs with folds from my breeding program (the breedings for the folds study were kept separate) and now perhaps I would not have to do that.

I just got an email from Sandy at CERF. This is what her email said:

We will review the form along with the Optigen test to determine whether it passes our guidelines. We are unable to determine this until we have the paperwork in the office.

Sandy

I have sold my pup since but this is valuable information as "not throw the baby out with the bath water".
I am sure alot of breeders were not aware of this.

Peggy, as you know, Geographic folds or GRD can appear in breeds that do not have OSD, the Ocular Skeletal Dysplasia. It can occur in Cavaliers, for example. Depending where in the eye, it may never cause a vision problem, but it will not CERF, and it should not disappear with age, if I understood correctly. It is highly unlikely to go to retinal detachment or blindness in Cavaliers, but one errs on the side of caution in CERF.

As for Actually, I guess that makes it a "definite maybe" at CERF. There are so many subtle things!

Thanks, everyone, for explaining. I didn't realize that logic would dictate a "definite maybe" so soon, and am happy that Sherry shared her information, as did others. Why? If I didn't have that knowledge, I'd sure need it for the next Lab in my door!

Is there a difference betwem RD and CMR? If a gene is negative for the CMR and CR can they still be carriers of RD? From what I have read the Retinal dysplasia part of CERF exam covers both?