I, for one, am getting sick and tired of being at the mercy of OFA veterinarians who are reading elbow x-rays. I am considering not sending them my x-rays for elbows and instead will have a local veterinary radiologist read them and certify them.

Recently, a friend's dog got a grade 1 reading in one elbow. On review examination by two veterinarians, one radiologist and one veterinary orthopedic specialist no disease could be found on the x-rays.
I know of the reputation of these specialists and I dare say, I would trust their opinion probably more so than the readers OFA is using.

All of us on this forum have heard many times that breeders will resubmit x-rays and the subsequent readings are changed to normal. HUH?

We are basing our breeding programs on the whims of people who may or may not have a different agenda. Is this a way to secure more money for OFA? Are there veterinarians reading x-rays that are NOT sympathetic to breeders?

I asked my own veterinarian, a stud dog owner himself, how he would feel if a bitch owner presented a radiology report and not an OFA certificate. He replied that any certification by a reputable radiologist showing the elbows normal would be more than enough for him.

We all agree that breeding normal elbows to normal elbows is important. I am not suggesting that we do away with health screenings. We all want to breed healthy dogs. I am just wondering what would happen if we took OFA out of the picture in the case of elbows.

So stud dog owners. . . if I brought a bitch to you with a radiology report that the bitch's elbows are normal, how would you feel about the breeding?

If your O.K. with it and you have stated what you have said in this email.... it makes a lot of sense to me. As a stud dog owner , I would agree with you and welcome the breeding.

I would welcome the breeding. I'm sick of the OFA and elbows myself!

"breeder

OFA and Elbows, question to stud dog owners


I, for one, am getting sick and tired of being at the mercy of OFA veterinarians who are reading elbow x-rays. I am considering not sending them my x-rays for elbows and instead will have a local veterinary radiologist read them and certify them.

Recently, a friend's dog got a grade 1 reading in one elbow. On review examination by two veterinarians, one radiologist and one veterinary orthopedic specialist no disease could be found on the x-rays.
I know of the reputation of these specialists and I dare say, I would trust their opinion probably more so than the readers OFA is using.

All of us on this forum have heard many times that breeders will resubmit x-rays and the subsequent readings are changed to normal. HUH?

We are basing our breeding programs on the whims of people who may or may not have a different agenda. Is this a way to secure more money for OFA? Are there veterinarians reading x-rays that are NOT sympathetic to breeders?

I asked my own veterinarian, a stud dog owner himself, how he would feel if a bitch owner presented a radiology report and not an OFA certificate. He replied that any certification by a reputable radiologist showing the elbows normal would be more than enough for him.

We all agree that breeding normal elbows to normal elbows is important. I am not suggesting that we do away with health screenings. We all want to breed healthy dogs. I am just wondering what would happen if we took OFA out of the picture in the case of elbows.

So stud dog owners. . . if I brought a bitch to you with a radiology report that the bitch's elbows are normal, how would you feel about the breeding? "

So you'll only accept that letter instead of a clearance from other stud dog owners if I am understanding you correctly? "question to stud dog owners"

If not, how do you know you can trust everyone you would normally work with having a letter like that?

I think it's a problem you should take up with the OFA if you feel they're failing dogs that should be passing. You might be opening a huge can of worms.

I would accept the letter from a respected orthopedic Vet, but I would also encourage you to send your elbow views to OVC in Canada.

I completely agree with "b" on this. OVC is very reputable, and its not certain grading whatsoever. Its a pass or fail, as easy as that.

I also believe that breeders should be becoming more familiar with the xrays, asking questions when their vet looks at the xrays for what they are looking for etc. So that way, you cannot be fooled if you are the one that is the stud owner looking at the xrays. This is another good thing about OVC and the Vets associated with them, they will take the time and show you where and what is wrong.

As an owner/breeder of a Ch. stud dog, I would breed a bitch w/such a letter.

I would accept it from a respected ortho vet, yes.

I have a 13 year old bitch who was injured at one year in one front leg which got a grade one fail from OFA when we did elbows. Since then, every year at our annual health exam, my vets examine & measure the elbow for any changes, We xray the elbow every three years ~ most recently at 12 years. There has been no degeneration or arthritic changes. Go figure.

I am thinking that it would then be necessary for everyone to have a comprehensive list of 'respected, credentialled, trusted' ortho vets so that the authenticity of the readings could in some way be verified.

I am not wishing to be difficult here, but USA is a big place and I doubt that stud owners would know all the good vets.

The other problem I can see is that not all people are honest. What is to stop these folks from counterfeiting the reports?

I would suggest that the solution may lie in sorting things out with OFA rather than walking away from a system which appears to have worked well for many years.

I wouldn't accept the opinion of a veterinary or even an ortho as the sole decision. I prefer the radiologist giving me the final decision.

If your friend's vet saw all okay- and OFA saw a problem, that is even more so the reason why i wouldn't accept just a letter. I would encourage the second opinion at all times. That's just me though.

But what hidden agenda would OFA have to tell you your dog has an ortho issue? Do i want a pass because an ortho vet sympathizes with me as a breeder? no.

If a puppy owner came to you and said their vet (ortho or not) said elbows are fine, and OFA stated they weren't...what would you do at that point? go with their vet and not OFA? what if it were reversed? your puppy owner's vet said it looked bad, do you not demand a second opinion and request they go off to OFA ? and what if OFA then said they were fine?

Having that extra opinion is good. Well, especially for me since i don't read films, haven't been trained to. If i submitted and it's not good, i get a second opinion and stop at that. Deal with it as i would need to deal with it (warranty, spay/neuter- not breed that dog).
It seems i'm in the minority on this opinion from the replies you got, but my comfort zone still lies with getting my vet's opinion - and then submitting them to OFA or even OVC. Just what i'm comfortable with as a novice still.

If i owned a big time stud dog - i would still want OFA or OVC certification.

Recently I submitted to OFA Xrays on a 3 1/2 year old bitch I knew had an injury and would be grade 1 on one elbow she had been xrayed just before she was 2 by a former OFA radiologist and evaluated by an ortho, her hips were fine.
Her OFA report came back grade 1 in both elbows and mild hip dysplasia(but NO dysplastic changes, just not as tight as one would like to see)Remember this is one a 3 1/2 year old bitch that runs hard.
When polled OFA one vet gave her fair hips and clear elbows, one gave her fair hips and one grade 1 elbow, the last one mild hips and 2 grade 1 elbows. Go figure.

OFA states it will give an average of the reports,however there was no consensus on them they just gave her the worst of the 3 ratings.
Do I think they are subjective to the nth degree??HELL YES!!!
In recent years I have seen my vet curse when she read reports on dogs that she new had excellent hips only to be given a good. While it's still passing, shouldn't the actual report be reflective of what they really are?!

If OFA is not good for elbows, it is not good for any other rad study.

Then what are the options?

Just an idea: Boycotting OFA might shake them up enough to realize our dogs future depends on how accurate they are.

In some circles this is called "shooting the messenger"

If OFA hips are on-line and elbows are not, this indicates to me that elbows did not pass. If you elect your own Vet to read the elbows instead of OFA, the correct wording might be "shooting yourself in the foot".

If someone came to me and was honest about a grade 1 elbow on a bitch, I'd research the pedigree etc, and consider it. If someone came to me complaining about OFA and how unfair it is, and how nice elbows don't pass no matter how often you submit and what a crappy job OFA does as a whole etc., I wouldn't think twice about denying the breeding...and not because of the bitch, or elbows; if you catch my drift.

I have x-rayed elbows and hips for many, many years. The only time I had an elbow x-ray not pass, OFA asked for another set of x-rays because the placement was wrong. The new x-rays passed.

Elbows are much trickier to properly x-ray. If your vet doesn't get the placement just right, there can be shadows and other problems that make the film difficult to read. My vet has shot up to four x-rays one one elbow before he was happy with the placement.

As a bitch owner, I want certification of clear elbows on studs I select. I don't want to hear "my vet said they are fine," or "I don't x-ray elbows because..." or, "the elbow didn't pass because of an injury." There may have been an injury, but I have no way of verifying it.

As a new stud owner, I am continuing to get hips, elbows, eyes, CNM and EIC on all of my dogs. And I won't breed to a bitch that doesn't have the same. As we all know it is "always the stud dog's fault"

MWK

That's because people continue to breed these grade 1 dogs thinking what they want to think. They ARE breeding dysplastic dogs.

I had someone one time wanting to use one of my boys. Her elbows had not been done and I require it. The bitch had grade 4 elbows. She was taken to 3 different vets for xrays and resubmission. She was totally asymtomatic so they just could not believe it. Until she was about 6yrs old. Then the DJD seen then, she(her elbows) couldn't ignore anymore and she became lame.

Most dogs with bilateral ED, whatatever the grade are asymtomatic as are grade 1 unilateral ED dogs. Get past grade 1 on a unlilateral pup or dog and they will limp.

As an aside, if you are unhappy with your report(s), call and visit with the head honcho at OFA. He will converse with you.

Further more, if you really want to know about your dog's elbows even at prelim time of at least 12 months of age, request your ortho to take not only lateral view but anterior as well. At this young age, you can and will miss issues unseen AT this age on just the lateral view only to have DJD seen at 2yrs of age and thus you're shaking your head.

Then lets go one further, if those of you really and truly want to know what you have in your grade 1 elbow you are breeding or want to breed, do an MRI on the elbow.

One would think, you'd want solidly sound breeding stock in your program.

Don't fool yourselves

There is also the Western College of Veterinary Medicine's certification program in western Canada. They issue a cerificate stating the findings for hips and elbows, after their ortho rad diplomate reads the films submitted. If films are done there, they do 3 or 4 views of the elbows in different positions/angles to check thoroughly. If your elbows pass there, you KNOW they are good!

My original question asked if stud dog owners would accept an elbow report from a veterinary radiologist, a specialist in the field, not a report from the owner's local veterinarian. My question is would a stud dog owner be comfortable bypassing the OFA.

Put my vote in the NO column. I only marginally trust many breeders and vets. I do trust OFA.

I have a dog that was attacked by 2 other dogs.
Bitten in the elbow and shoulder.
His prelims had been fine before this.
After the bite, an infection set in, in the elbow & shoulder joints.
All is documented.
at 2 years OFA came back Grade 1 in that elbow. Vet was concerned at the time of the Xray because of the injury.
My vet & the ortho vet said the problem was due to the injury.
This was explained to OFA. Did not matter although OVC cleared him. I don't know what to think.

Whatever, I am not breeding him.

I have to ask this of "just me". If there are veterinary radiologists who rotate reading films for OFA, why would you not trust an individual veterinary radiologist to give an accurate reading?

For the same reason OFA doesn't. The consensus of three separate "experts" is a much better indication of the actual bone status.

If the evaluation was done by a board certified radiologist, yes I would certainly accept that.

I understand your point, "just me", and yet when I read circumstances like what happened to "OFANONO", (and many others), sometimes it seems like even with OFA, it still comes down to ONE individual radiologist making the difference on how the dog is scored.

In court this is called "He said, She said". What you hear from the owner is only that person's story. Dr. Keller at OFA might offer quite a different explanation. Don't make the mistake of getting dismayed with a well-respected system because a few people tell a subjective sad tale. Just because someone posted it does not make it so. Just because several said they also disagreed with the results does not make "many others" either. Nothing is gained for our dogs by embellishment or misleading statements.

I have been using OFA since their first year. All of my final opinions have been a consensus of the individual readings ever since it stopped being a pass/fail system (many years ago). I have had a slight disagreement on readings a time or two (out of hundreds), but the system checks and balances have always given me results that I could use to help make difficult choices. That is all we can ask of a tool.

To answer your question, NO, I would not except from different Vets. Its like when a dog does not pass elbows with OFA and then months later there is a note saying it was passed by a Vet. ? Just don't trust everyone. You can always find a Vet to think your way. OFA is the best we can do for now.JMHO

My "many others" statement came from those I know and respect and have talked to in person, not simply from reading a post on the forum. It made me concerned enough to ask the original question. When I know someone and the dog and their get, and also know that original films rated "mild", then get done again and the dog gets a "good", it is enough to make you wonder. Yes, positioning can have something to do with it, but so does subjectivity.

When I called to find out the results on one of the first sets of xrays I sent in to OFA, I got to talk to Dr. Keller. My dogs hips were good, but in explaining how the ratings worked, he did describe them as somewhat subjective, thus the averaging.
I am not dismayed about the OFA system, and am not trying to denigrate their integrity, but am puzzled enough about things I hear from those I trust to be concerned for future readings.
As mentioned, it is a TOOL, but my concern was the idea that the same tool (xrays read by a specialist in the field) being used by someone was worthless. It is a mistake to assume that OFA never gets it wrong. And breeding programs get based on that.

I will continue to send xrays to OFA, but I also would not disregard the opinion of a competent veterinary radiologist.

As you said, there is always some element of subjectivity in reading a radiograph. I would not "disregard" the opinion of a competent veterinary radiologist, but I would not give it any more weight that just one (1) of the opinions by a competent radiologist that reads for OFA. There is a reason OFA uses three readers and that reason is why I wouldn't take any ONE person's word about something so important to my breeding program.

It is a matter of your own choice of tools and your priorities. I have chosen OFA and had good success with that choice. Others use OVC or another service and are pleased with that tool. Some use PennHIP and some have a favorite vet radiologist that is the final authority. Whatever your choice of tool, stick with it to get the best long-term results and don't "mix and match" to cherry pick the opinions you prefer.

In the long run, all phenotype selection is subjective - from head shape to tail twizzle. Radiographs are an evaluation of phenotype and are an imperfect tool by their very nature. How you use them for decision making is just as subjective. Perhaps someday there will be gene tests for many of the issues we face. Until then we all select a personal path and walk it the best we can. I chose the most objective of the many subjective paths that I could find, but it is not the only path to a common goal.

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Many don't realize the differences in hip ratings at times can be as simple as the conditioning of the dog as well.
While laxity is a factor in the rating of the films and it may be the reason for hips to get a fair or mild or borderline on a young large boned and loose dog, he can easily get a good at 2yr providing no DJD is seen from the early laxity due to the condition of the dog. It's not the competency of the reading panel but the condition of the dog. Even adults change due to their condition. Muscle tone plays a huge role.

I'm not saying all laxity is due to condition of the dog but I think many do not realize it can be in certain situations.

You(general term) don't always agree w/ someone else's opinions. One might think the acetabulum is a bit too shallow for h/her and another might think it's acceptable for an example. Some dogs just don't have good hips and laxity isn't the main factor in its rating you get.

I would much rather have the concensus of 3 qualified radiologists then 1 on hips as well as elbows. I use a board certified ortho so I look at it as having 4 opinions.

I trusted OFA until a recent experience. My vet did the hip xrays and they looked great. He looked at them and I looked at them. They were sent in to OFA and came back "mild". He did them again and resent them and they came back "good". He called OFA and talked to Dr. Kellner and asked what was wrong with the first ones and Dr. Kellner said it was a difference of opinion of the radiologists that reviewed them. (A difference between mild and good????)

I have sent x-rays to OFA that the vet said would be good to come back dysplastic or grade 1, I have called ofa and received the 3 ratings of excellent, good and fair and got the average of a good.
I have lost a lot of faith in those that read for OFA.

Personally i want to see a certificate that says the rating is _______ Dr. XYZ rated the dog a ________ Dr. ABC rated the dog a ______ and Dr. LMN rated the dog a __________.

I have to say that i want to know WHO rated my dog what and i want to see that the average or the lowest rating was given and i want it on all certification from OFA.
But that won't happen.

In response to the original poster, every dog is a seperate case and should be treated as such. If i have a bad feeling then i am not going to breed the bitch. Period. I am very small time. If i don't have a bad feeling and i think honset documentation is there then i will do the breeding.

I have been in Labradors over 20 years and had multiple stud dogs through the years. I have turned away ugly pet bitches with all appropriate clearances.

If someone who I know is reputable comes to me and askes to use my dog I do not request copies of clearances. You are the breeder - not me. That's your decision as an educated bitch owner and established breeder.

I can only think of one stud dog owner(s) who has requested copies of my bitches clearances in all the years I've been in this. And, 90% of my breedings are to outside stud dogs!

Personally I wouldn't base what really happens based on the repsones you recieve on this board.