With all of the recent inexpensive clinics performing echo dopplers, have many of you gone back after auscultation or that never did a heart clearance and either done an echo doppler or plan on it?

I wish we could do a poll, the results would be interesting.

I'm curious if recent information regarding the accuracy of doppler vs ausculation, lower cost and availability has changed some minds about doing echo dopplers. TIA.

I'll be doing an echo doppler on my boy if he passes his OFAs.

Yes. My boy Gandalf was cleared by auscultation at a year. I figure any heart clearance was better than none. I just had him echoed at a clinic in January. His heart is fabulous BTW.

My practice has been to have all my dogs auscultated which is acceptable by OFA for a heart clearance. Some of them then have also had color doplers and passed (stud dogs)

Not any more, I just had 2 dogs who passed auscultation but failed the dopler. The testing was done by a board certifed cardiologist in his office, not a clinic.

I have made the decision in my breeding program to now only breed my dogs who have passed doppler and to only use outside stud dogs who have passed.

My opinion....lots have been posted on this forum about EIC...I believe we as breeders should be more focused on TVD and elbow issues.

Cost wise the cardiologist here charges $525 for an in office ausculation followed by a doppler. I will try to use lower cost clinics if they are available, unfortunately not many are held.

For those who passed ascultation but failed on the doppler, was the ascultation clearance done by a regular vet or a cardiologist?

I don't believe that breeders should be more focused on any one health issue than another. We need to make all of them an important part of our decisions if we are to produce even healthy pets, much less the foundations for future generations of our breed. Gene tests (like EIC, PRA, CNM) are easier to use, but all of the various health screenings are part of the puzzle. The better the test (like echo instead of auscultation), the better the outcome.

My dog passed auscultation and we will be doing an echo doppler this June.

BTW - for anyone who missed my previous post, the Winnebago LRC is offering a echo doppler heart clinic on Saturday June 5th in Rockford, Illinois for anyone interested. Please contact me for details.

I completely agree that breeders should be much more focused on all bitches and boys having a full heart clearance that is done by echo doppler by a certified cardiologist than EIC whose test is still in the research phase! It is really interesting that so many people are on the EIC bandwagon, yet there are lots breeding who do not think about doing a good heart clearance from echo doppler for a TVD clearance.
The heart is a major organ and I am always surprised how many bitches do not have any heart clearance.
Any breeding bitch or stud should have a echo color doppler IMO. A ascultation does not rule out TVD.
The echo color doppler is the gold standard. Even if the bitch has 1-3 litters, why would you want to risk any of those puppies with potential heart issues?
Puppies are products of BOTH their parents.

Even an echo doesn't mean 2 echo cleared dogs won't produce a TVD puppy. Been there and know of quite a few others. If this happens to you send the puppy, it's parents and grandparents blood to Meg Sleeper. Hopefully we'll have a genetic test for this in the near future. IMO, far scarier than EIC.

Misrepresenting the EIC test doesn't in any way encourage getting a heart clearance. It is counter-produtive from any standpoint. The test has not been in the research phase for two years now. Get the facts.

There is no way to compare these two health screenings. One is a DNA test with definite clarity of genetic status. The other is a phenotype screening for a defect with an as-yet undetermined mode of inheritance. Both are important. The EIC test is easier, cheaper and has specific genetic implications. An echo heart clearance offers some confidence that the dog is not clinically affected by a heart defect. It has no definite bearing on the genetic potential of that dog.

I fail to see why anyone would want to encourage people to use one test while discouraging the other with misinformation. Again, it is counter productive for the future of the breed.

Didn't have problems with hearts ... but I decided to start taking a look to see where my own dogs were about 6 years ago ... that way if a problem did crop up I could figure out when and where it started.
I started doing doppler heart clearances ... thankfully at a clinic ... I did two a year until I had all of my adults completed. I also started doing auscultations at a year old for my younger guys ... and then followed up with dopplers when they were two and had their final OFAs. this has a few benefits .... I get a basic (and inexpensive) look at the heart at a young age ... and the cardiologists that I have spoken to have said that things can change as dogs age .... that if you do a doppler too young .... you may get some things that won't show up until they are somewhat older.... two years old seemed to be a good compromise .... This has given me three generations of good dopplers and I have also been lucky enough that the stud dogs I have used in the past few years have also done dopplers ....
I think this is an important test ... and I beleive that it is important that I know what I have in my own lines ... can't ask stud dog owners to what I don't do myself

Well said. Equal rights means equal responsibilities

Dog passed ascultation, failed doppler, both with cardiologist. Having a cardiologist listen does not guarantee TVD can/will be detected. Found out to my shock that TVD can be silent.

You must be able to see how illogical it is to be running to do an EIC test but not do any heart clearances. The heart is a major organ and should be cleared. Saying it doesn't guarantee anything is not an excuse not to do the clearance. EIC is not the gold standard at this time. EIC is on this crazy pedastal as the end all clearance. I don't see how getting inaccurate EIC results does the breed any good. Heart clearances by echo doppler are accurate.

I don't know anyone who does not do a heart clearance on their breeding stock, so where are all of these people running to do EIC and not hearts? In addition, who is to say EIC is inaccurate? It is accurate for what is tested and can easily be used in a breeding program to eliminate affecteds in one generation.

Heart clearances, while I believe they are necessary, are not so easy to incorporate into a breeding program because the clearance does not translate further than the dog that is tested. An ECHO-cleared dog can still produce affected offspring.

I know people who are showing and breeding offspring of affected dogs right now. The offspring appear to be clear, but who knows? The parents of the affected dogs had heart clearances.

I agree, heart clearances are important, but genetic test results for things like PRA and EIC are much more definitive as far as removing issues from lines.

I don't see how telling people that a specific, proven genetic test is "inaccurate" does the breed any good. Why do you find it necessary to misrepresent one test in order to promote another? It is not an either/or situation. Encouraging people to use all of the tests available may eventually do some geniune good for the breed - if that is your real goal.

Put my vote in the "updated" column for the poll. I have been getting auscultation heart clearances for a long time. In the last few years, I have had all of my dogs cleared by echo as well. Improvements in technology, availability and pricing make it easier to get more accurate screening.

both the auscultation--he passed and the echo he failed were by a cardiologist

When UMinn actually finds the EIC gene we will test.
Until then we are not going to jump on the train to get inaccurate results. I believe not testing at this point is as good as getting an inaccurate test result from EIC. UMinn has said they found a gene that is close to "the gene". Close is not good enough for my testing purposes.

I think you already missed the train; you are waiting at the wrong stop! The UMinn HAS found the EIC gene; here is the link to their page :
http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/home.html

A quote from this page: "The gene responsible for EIC was identified here at the University of Minnesota and the scientific basis for the DNA test to detect the EIC gene has been peer-reviewed and published in the scientific journal Nature Genetics. "

So where do you get the notion that the gene for EIC hasn't yet been found?????