Mary R Williams wrote that you can have a sustainable line of dogs by keeping your number at 9. It was something like a couple of retirees, your breeding/show dogs and a few hopefuls. In her day breeders were clearing only hips and eyes so the wash out rate was lower. Anyone want to talk about how few dogs you can keep these days and keep your line going?

That's about how many I have - I like to keep my numbers down under about 12 - usually 8 to 10. Right now there are several retirees in the house, 2 dogs who are actively showing, and a number of puppies that I'm running on. Yes - it can be done - you have to be ruthless in culling (spaying/neutering and placing in pet homes) the dogs that don't move your breeding program forward. If you don't, you'll be stuck in place until they die, which is fine if you don't have goals.

I know this is going to be slammed by those people who can't envision placing dogs that don't work out and they'll say we don't love our dogs. Au contraire - we love them enough to let them go to a great pet home and move on to the next prospect that will improve the breed.

Of course,we also have the luxury of frozen semen which can not only preserve lines for generations to come + being able to store semen from influential/admired dogs belonging to others. I include the ability to use chilled semen as well.

Many breeders can keep their very best bitches without ever needing to keep a male themselves.

Here in Australia we are also permitted to store embryos and use surrogate mothers.

there are some very successful kennels who keep fewer than even the 9 or so mentioned on MRW's book.

I think there is a simple test to see if a breeder has too many dogs. Just smell them. If they stink to high heaven and the judges cringe when the go over them it is time to get the numbers down. If they act very up and excited when being shown it is often because that is the only attention they get and they crave it. Stinky overly excited dogs are a good sign you need to rethink why you got into this hobby in the first place.One other thing is that many of the big time breeders keep many of their dogs on co-owns in other people's homes. This can work better for the dog, and allow the breeders to have the many litters needed to become that big.

This sentence from "Breeder" couldn't be more true;

Yes - it can be done - you have to be ruthless in culling (spaying/neutering and placing in pet homes) the dogs that don't move your breeding program forward. If you don't, you'll be stuck in place until they die, which is fine if you don't have goals.

It depends on what you are looking to do with the dogs, or if you would like to have something to show each year. I have trouble keeping less than 15. I have 2 seniors, 3 champions - 1 bitch and 2 males, that I may not ever place and then 3 adult bitches doing obed. and conf., and 2 bitches doing field work and several puppies of different ages, that can come and go.

"if they act very excited it may be the only attention they get" I have a little issue with that statement. Dogs with hunting drive tend to be more excitable than those without that innate hunting drive.

I know a champion male with a hunt title who is in house and gets lots of attention but pants excitedly when going around the ring. It's his hunting drive coming out, not lack of attention.

"If they act up and excited when being shown it is often because that is the only attention they get and they crave it." I have a little issue with that statement. Dogs with hunting drive tend to be more excitable than those without that innate hunting drive.

I know a champion male with a hunt title who is in house and gets lots of attention but pants excitedly when going around the ring. It's his hunting drive coming out, not lack of attention.

I have more retirees right now than young. Thats why culling and placing when clearances or confirmation does not work out, needs to be done. They go to great homes. 3 or 4 young, to young adults to show and a pup or two coming along. So I think you are right, if you are keeping the best and most healthy, the numbers have to be up some. I would say 12 and below is mine.

I just placed a gorgeous black boy (that I was running on) with a great pedigree. I placed him only because he had a couple of mild structural faults that I don't want to perpetuate. Now he has total attention of an entire family 24/7, sleeps on the couch, and eats popcorn with the kids. How can that possibly be wrong in anyones eyes? He has the best of everything. Here he would be spending 8 hours a day in the kennel. I pay alot of attention to my dogs but the life he has now is more than I can ever offer him.

Is it not possible to have a very small breeding program with just 2-3 bitches and a couple of youngsters? If you are only keeping the very best you produce and retiring your girls young after just a few litters then you would be constantly moving forward wouldn't you. That is what I am hoping to get down to and would then keep only puppies that exceeded what I already had so not even from every litter if there wasn't something spectacular. I am hoping to have 2-3 champion bitches to breed from and then another pup or two that I am growing up to replace those once I have something better than them. Wouldn't that work?

Well, you would have to have a very good eye for selecting puppies, and then there are the clearances. I usually run on 2 pups from a litter - first - to see how they grow, from what I have selected, and then to be sure that I have something to run on as adults with clearances. Even after all that - what if your finished girl (or nice, but not finished) with all the clearances - doesn't get pregnant or doesn't produce well?

My example of a successful small breeding program was the Campbells (Campbellcroft). They never had more than 6 dogs in residence, but they did co-own quite a bit. They did not place retirees but did place one or two dogs that didn't pass OFA. They usually had one or two stud dogs and one or two breeding bitches, and they won specialties regularly. Were they lucky- probably. Were they good at picking the right puppies-you bet!

I think this is a very presumptuous statement. I know of many dogs who simply love to show. I have a bitch here who, as soon as she sees a show lead or thinks she may get a piece of food, her tail wags and does not stop...it doesn't matter if I hold a treat for 45 minutes in 90 degree weather! She will stand there wagging her tail non-stop and is just a very happy girl. She, by the way, is a house dog and gets all the attention she could ever want. Her kids that I am just starting to show are the same way.

I have 4 right now, and have been in this for 17 years. I've had as many as 5.

I breed my girls older, around 4-5. If I get someone good to show, then I have no need to breed mom again.

So I have currently a 14 year old gentleman, a 10 year old Madame, a 6 year old girl, a 6 month old little lady whom I love to pieces.

I like to think ahead with a breeding, and when this youngster is 4 or 5, I don't believe my 14 year old, or perhaps my 10 year old will be around sadly.

I do like to do other things with my dogs (obedience, hunt tests, tracking, etc), and travel (dogs always come with) so a lower number works well for me. My oldsters still compete in veterans etc.

I think the best way to decide on whether you have too many or not is whether you resent the work...in the cold months or hot buggy ones.

Also, does each dog know it's name, come when called, look well groomed and cared for? If yes, then you're okay. But when you can honestly say no to one of those, time to let some go...

The acutal number will differ from one person to the next...

Best,

Leslee Pope
Huntcrest

"If they act very up and excited when being shown it is often because that is the only attention they get and they crave it."

So, a dog can't just show well because they enjoy it? I think I'll go tell a few of mine they need to act less happy and up in the ring at Potomac. LOL.

As to the original question I think you can keep 8-12 and be good IF you can be ruthless in your program and place everything that doesn't work out. I have 8 currently - one will never leave. Another will be spayed next year and find a new home. Two are on the leaving list but I have puppies coming up who will take their place.

I find that a smaller breeding program can be very manageable. I prefer to have no more than 4 dogs in my house so that is what I keep my numbers to. I limit myself to keeping only one older retired girl at a time, 2 girls who I am breeding, showing and doing obedience with, and one youngster that I am growing up. If the youngster passes all clearances and turns out to be better than her mom then I will retire the mother and continue forward with that girl. It is a breeding program that is very selective but is always improving and moving forward - albeit quite a bit more slowly than some would prefer. But it works very well for me and my dogs.

I will only keep at most 5 or 6 dogs in my home. At the moment I have only 3 but we are expecting puppies and I want to keep a pup from that litter and also I´m having a girl from USA. We don´t have any kennels here so my dogs are house dogs. We also like to travel or visit families who live further away from us and we like to take our dogs with us. Also we have 3 kids and I work 4 hrs pr day in the mornings so if I where to keep more dogs I would like to have plenty of time to take care of them... maybe in the near future, who knows