What protocols do individual breeders follow regarding breeding dogs & bitches which were evaluated under the various schemes?

At what age would you deem a dog/bitch suitable for breeding based upon hip x-rays (all other relevant test results being satisfactory to the individual breeder of course)?

If for argument's sake you used Penn Hip when puppy was say 4 or 5 months old, would you then x-ray again at 2 years old, or is the original evaluation the guide for your breeding program?

I know that for OFA certification animals must be 2 yrs old. Does this also apply for Penn Hip?

In many countries, the accepted age for hip scoring is 1 year of age. Here in Australia, some breeders use Penn Hip, but the vast majority use the Willis Scoring system (same as the English). Our hip scores are accepted as final when the x-ray is done at the age of 12 months. I believe that this is too young. I do not get my dogs done prior to their second birthday. I had a bitch done when she was 2 years old and her 'rays looked really nice. I can't recall why they were never submitted for scoring (it was my bad, & I eventually was unable to find the films).

When this bitch was around 5 years of age, I offered her back to her breeder for a litter as I had not yet bred this girl and I was not in a position to breed her at the time. The breeder was pleased to have her for a litter so took her and had her hips & elbows x-rayed and sent for scoring. We were all shocked when the result came back with a score of 23/12 this giving a total of 35. This was a real shock to all of us (bitch was desexed and placed in a pet home).

This just reinforced my thoughts on accepting early scores as final and causes me to worry greatly for the future of our dogs. This may well havebeen an extreme case, but it did happen.

Where do others stand on this?

I am just curious, not looking for a fight lol

If I have a promising boy I like to do them around 1 year of age, just to have a baseline opinion. A good result gives me peace of mind to start spending money on him, showing, further tests/clearances.
My girls I treat differently, I rarely spend the money on any films untill they are 2.
All puppies are CERF at 7 weeks, if their is a cardio clinic I also do ausculation of all dogs that are here at the time.

Why is it different for boys and girls?

Boys have to be perfect to live here or pretty darn close to it. And they are a huge pain in the neck to keep when you have a herd of bitches, so if they are going to stay here, they have to b top notch. Not just cute, and not just because I may have a soft spot for them. I don't keep just a couple of dogs as house dogs, I have a kennel , and it is hard work, males complicate my life. I mean they must be a Specialty winner or they don't live here.

What do you personally use in Australia Olivia? Do you have an Australian OFA besides using the Willis system?

I don't breed on prelims or any score done under the age of 2. We see too many passing prelims and non-passing finals. I see no reason to rush into breeding any labrador, bitch or dog. It's JMHO and for someone wanting to do it within their own kennel quietly, it's their business. For them to advertise their stud-dogs at well under age 2 on prelims that don't show on OFA is plain stupid. That's a money-maker, no if's and's or but's.

I usually do prelims at about one year 0f age but I do not breed until they pass final exams at age two. But then, I usually don't breed until they are three or four because I don't have many litters, and they have to wait their turn. I have only had two stud dogs- I did not breed them on prelims, either.

we wait until 2 years, do OFAs. PennHip at 2 years is also acceptable, but only at 2 years
This nonsense about breeding on "Prelims" is just that. Nonsense.

Thank you. I hoped I wasn't the only breeder noticing and saddened by the increase these practices.

I also agree with you about PennHip and OFA. The 2 year or above rating, is *the* rating. There's no reason to skate around about the *prelim* as that's all it is, preliminary. The final hip & elbow ratings, at age 2 or over, is just that for me, finals. Not prelims.

Preliminary-Merriam Webster,
: something that precedes or is introductory or preparatory: as a : a preliminary scholastic examination b plural British : front matter c : a preliminary heat or trial (as of a race) d : a minor match preceding the main event (as of a boxing card)

I have bred to pre-limed dogs more than once and have never regretted it. I have bred to a 2 year old certified dog and regretted it immensely.

I have not seen any reply to this part of the post. With all the recent comments about Pennhip, I was curious if people just went with a young eval or had the hips redone after age 2.

The PennHIP evaluation done at 16 weeks and at a year predict better than OFA done at those same ages what the evaluation at 2 years old will be. But the earlier PennHIP evaluations are not 100% correlated with the PennHIP evaluation at 2 years old.

I wait until 2 years old to do my PennHIP evaluations. It's an expensive test, and I want the most accurate result. It also requires anesthesia, and I don't like giving young dogs anesthesia. But at this point after 3 generations of using PennHIP, I am pretty confident about the results I am likely to see so I'm not getting any surprises at 2 years old.

If I were at a different point in my breeding career or if I saw a puppy who seemed off and I was worried about the outcome, I would use the PennHIP to make a prediction about whether it was worth putting a lot of time and money into the puppy or young dog. But I don't breed young dogs anyway. Bad practice.

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I am totally with you regarding breeding the dogs & bitches under the age of 2 years. I have never done this in 35 years of dog breeding & cannot see any reason to start now.

In answer to your questions, I use the Willis System to have my dogs' hips & elbows graded. Our breed average score in Australia is around a total score of 12 for the hips. This of course is an artificially low average due to the fact that many of the poor results are never submitted for scoring and the dogs are eliminated from breeding programs. In saying this however, in this country,we must hip & elbow score our stock otherwise we cannot register the offspring. That is the good news. Unfortunately, even though the dogs/bitches must be scored, there is no cutoff point whereby the animals are not permitted to be used for breeding. Therefore a chronically dysplastic (hips & elbows) dog/ bitch can still be used in a breeding program and as we don't have an OFA type registry, these dogs disappear into pedigrees and the average new chum is none the wiser exactly what horrors lurk in the background of their beloved dog.

I am sitting in my local Mcdonald's to read & send to the forum. My internet at home went haywire last night and I am still trying to get it back up & running.

A PennHIP result in the 50th percentile and above is good at 4-5 months. Laxity, which is the precursor of dysplasia or development of osteoarthritis, is quite consistent through the life of the dog. If there is little laxity at an early age, it is not likely that will change significantly with age.

My one experience with PennHip was unsatifactory. The bitch was 5 months old, and the doctor who did the PennHip felt that her hips would be in the highest percentile.
He even had me feel the tightness of her hips, and measured the xray with his distraction tool. He was sure she would get a very high score. She came back in the 50th percentile, and I was crushed and surprised, since this bitch never missed a step in her life.
Did the OFA hips and elbows at 2 years old, and the vet (who knew the previous PennHip) said she was suspicious of elbow AND hip problems. Huh? Off to another vet who deals with breeders a lot, and he looked me right in the eyes and said, "There is nothing wrong with your bitch's elbows or hips, in fact, the hips SHOULD go excellent, but OFA will probably rate them as good." (they did).
Have I ever bred to a stud dog on prelims alone? Absolutely, when I knew the line very well, and I was very successful with that breeding!
That being said, I have experienced breeding to a stud dog based on elbow prelims at 18 months which passed, who ended up having mild elbow dysplasia at age two.
I'm pretty conservative about risk-taking, but if I am comfortable with the line, I will go off a prelim of 1 year or greater.
OFA back in the dark ages used to certify at 12 months (true story), but found that about 5% of the dogs deviated from their 12-month score, so they changed the age of certification to 24 months. So basically you have a 95% chance of accuracy at 12 months. If that was a horse race, and you knew the line well, I would put my money down!

Indeed, this is quite an unsatisfactory PennHIP experience. Vets trained to take PennHIP x-rays are taught never to evaluate the hip or make predictions about the DI. In fact, a 5-month PennHIP is not 100% correlated with a 2-year evaluation, which is stated on the website. And PennHIP evaluations correlate poorly with OFA evaluations, despite the fact that the OFA website also says that laxity is the best predictor of OA.