Winners Withheld?

Ok I thought since I am getting a few emails asking about this I would tell how it happened out here.

I started showing my yellow Lab puppy Crush on 3.13.10, 4 days after he turned 6 months. To my surprise he won WD/BOW and BOB. I was thrilled. 2nd day the judge preferred the other color (sorry to say that..) His 3rd show 3.19.10 Crush again won WD/BOW/BOB. His 4th show he won his class of 1, the open dog won his class of 1. There were just the 2 of us. To my shock as we went around the ring for WD the judge said I am sorry but I am going to have to withhold WD ribbons. Strange..we both walked out of the ring in total shock. The judge never bothered to pull us to the side and say why he did it. So after the other exhibitor and I walked away talking and I had time to cool down I asked a couple of reps what the protocol was. Oh I would just drop it, you would probably get a lame excuse, the dogs were out of condition or he doesn’t do puppies….blah blah blah. OK in the past he had given the open dog points. Neither dog was bad. So I filed a complaint with AKC, got a really nice reply back that states on the bottom that this email is for me only, not to forward it. I would like to quote one thing in the email though “The exhibitor is the foundation of the sport, without which there will be no dog shows”. He then asked for the info on my dog so he could talk to the judge. I sent him the result page from Onofrio so he would see the names of both dogs that were there. He did give out BOB to a class bitch.

So what I have learned from this that if something like this happens to you if you have any questions at all for your judge, don’t hesitate to call the AKC rep over to the ring and talk to the judge. I know I was in such a total state of shock that this didn’t even register until later. So shame on me for not asking him.....

If the ladies that police this forum say it’s OK I will post the judge’s name.

just post the url to the results page.

-Jill

Good for you for investigating this. Judges do owe exhibitors an explanation when they make decisions like this. Are the exhibitors not paying for this person's opinion?? Thank you for sharing your experience.

With regards to your comment that the 2nd day the judge preferred the other color....that is really not very nice to say. It seems to me this puppy has also done quite well out of the gates at his first few shows and is highly pointed. Perhaps the judge preferred the type of that dog on the day. Not sure why you felt the need to even say that.

http://www.onofrio.com/

I do agree that color remark was uncalled for, but I am being truthful. And am very sorry for putting that in there. If anyone looks up those results or keeps track of what judges like as far as color, you have my comment here. I did really like the dogs that she did put up.

Take it with a grain of salt.

A few years back a nice yellow boy of my breeding who has since gotten his Ch. easily, and a yellow boy of another Canadian Breeder/Judge's breeding, (who I respect and admire) were the only two males in the ring. My boy resisted showing his bite at first, but then showed it and the judge said he saw it. Otherwise, the dog behaved very well. The other dog showed his bite no problem and behaved impeccably. The judge witheld ribbons, said my boy wasn't behaving well and the other dog just wasn't mature enough.

The ring steward was the judge's partner and told us that they had just been to a judge's seminar on the breed standards and that his partner was looking for proper breed type.

Both these dogs had taken first in thier class the very week before, at the Labrador Owner's Club specialty in Ontario, with a judge from Britain. I just smiled and walked away.

Sometimes we just take it with a huge grain of salt. I'm sure your young fellow will do very well in his show career.

Here is the full link
http://www.onofrio.com/execpgm/wbsrbred?wtsrk1=HAKC1441461RLB

Well... I know the owner of the open yellow would never keep or show a dog that wasn't quality. Your's must also be because of the record so far. Looking at the overall size of the entry and all of the absentees it makes me wonder if exhibitors were making a statement about the judge.

Thank you for explaining what this means. I saw it on the onofrio site and wondered what it was all about. I have put the judge's name on my list of judges not to waste my money on. You clearly have great show quality dogs and it's not like somebody brought in their backyard pets. I can no longer value this judge's opinion and I'm certainly not going to pay for it.

The judge's form where the number is entered for each award states "I certify that in my opinion, the WINNER _____ and RESERVE _____ are deserving of championship points on this day." If the judge does not feel the dogs are worthy of a championship for any reason (behavior, condition, type, movement, etc.) then the option is to withhold winners. You paid for his opinion and you got it. His initial breed was Irish Setters, so he may have a very different view of retrievers than you do. I would not enter that dog under him again

That is the point...he did not give them an opinion. Which they deserve. So they are just supposed to speculate why he felt they did not deserve points? This hobby is much to expensive for judges to act so unprofessionally.

It is one thing to withhold points...it is quite another to do so without so much as an explanation as to why he felt the entry was undeserving. While I understand he was certainly within his rights...this is very poor form.

Thank you to Debi for bringing this to our attention. I certainly will not waste gas money or entry fees to show to someone that shows so little respect for exhibitors.

A statement about the judge would have been to not enter. I suspect some of the absentees were shopping for majors. The wise thing is to not read more into the situation than it is. The judge didn't feel either of the males was worthy of a championship, but liked the bitches well enough. It is just one opinion and the next judge might withhold ribbons from the bitch who won. That is one of the reasons you have to earn points under at least three judges and majors under at least two. Take it in stride, don't be a bad sport and move on to the next show.

The judge did what he was supposed to do. He marked his opinion, awarded or withheld ribbons and kept his ring moving on time (a very big issue with AKC). If you ever have questions, you can ask after the assignment is done. Take the dog with you.

Many other countries use a system that requires a written critique of each entry. AKC does not and discourages judges from discussion with exhibitors in the ring. He was being professional by not discussing the issue in the ring or within earshot of other exhibitors.

If you ever have a question, there is a time and place to ask. Most judges are very accommodating if you genuinely want to know their opinion. As professionals, they are glad to provide explanations to exhibitors who also act professionally and don't just want to complain or express their anger.

Well...after this, I highly doubt he will have much opportunity in the Lab ring. I for one would not enter under him and I have never shown to the guy.

I believe Debi did say that she went to the superintnedents for advice and was discouraged from going further with it.

I have seen judges take a few minutes in the ring with exhibitors (usually newbies) that have dogs that do not belong in the ring. They are respectful and courteous and helpful. They have kept their rings moving in a timely fashion.

From the sounds of this...this display was none of these...least of all respectful.

Technically, if the judge didn't think either dog was worthy, he should have withheld the first place ribbon in the classes and given each a second place ribbon. That way neither would have made it to Winner's Dog. That's the protocol the judge SHOULD have followed if he really thought neither dog was worthy. That said - I'm putting him on my DNS list as I know both dogs and both are nice representatives of the breed!

I believe withholding ribbons has its time and place. What bothers me is that these judges seem to withhold when a novice handler or breeder handler is on the end of the lead. Instead of giving advice, they'd rather power trip and turn the novices off showing forever. Do you ever see a judge withholding when a pro handler is at the end of the lead? - Never! They don't have the guts! Most of time the pro handled dogs are the mediocre specimens because they can't finish any other way. JMO.

This may be your opinion, but it is not at all the case. I entered this discussion by quoting exactly what is on the form. There is a big, big difference between lacking merit to the point of withholding a placement and not demonstrating the quality of a champion. A dog that resembles its breed and does not have any disqualifying or serious faults should not have a ribbon withheld for "lack of merit". It may look like a Labrador, but still not be of the calibre to become a champion. When the judge awards winners and reserve, he is stating that the dog deserves to be a champion. When he withholds them, his opinion only means that the dog(s) are not champions in his eyes.

It is easy to hash and rehash this, but it is just one person's opinion. It is poor sportsmanship to publicly complain about the judge when he did exactly what he was supposed to do based on his knowledge and opinion. You don't have to give him an entry in the future, but this public flogging and second guessing is really out of line.

Maybe not all, but if you need to finish a mediocre dog a pro handler can get it done. With a nice dog it does not make a difference who is on the other end of the lead the dog will finish.

in a perfect world. In this world, politics play a big part and that is why some choose to put a pro on a dog they know is worthy because in the end it's a lot cheaper!

Cheaper how? I think an owner handler will save a lot of doe ray me with a nice dog on the end of the lead.

The politics involved between the judges and the professional handlers are the reason the mediocre dogs finish.

A mediocre handler can make a good dog look bad - I have seen it time and again. A good dog with a good handler will finish much more quickly (and save $$) than the same dog with a poor handler. Most handlers do not want to be seen with mediocre dogs. The problem with mediocre dogs finishing is not with the dogs or with the handlers, it is with the judges.

The open dog has won a specialty so it's not that he was unworthy. Very strange. Not a judge I'd waste my time or money on.

And Open Yellow at Potomac and points from the judge before.....

So many experienced Lab people have zero or less respect for all breed judges. Until and unless the AKC really comes down on judges whose "opinions" have no basis on fact, the Standard, or much else besides he's having an off day this crap will continue. My recommendation is don't any of us ever enter a Lab under this judge. And write a nice note to explain why. When clubs start seeing this breed having entries comparable to Irish Water Spaniels they may start having second thoughts about inviting him to be on their panel.

When we pay what we do for entries I believe the judge owes the exhibitors an explanation. I know they're under a time constraint but a short explanation is warranted.

DebiR; I strongly recommend that you mail the judge, stating the show day, dog and situation and ask him to call you. That would be the least you could do. As I am sure he could explain himself. Obviously it won't change anything from the past, but it might bring change for the future.

Mr. Sidney L. Marx 20392 W. Elk Creek Dr, Colorado Springs, CO, 80908

This statement shows your inexperience.
And if that's true, then try it. You'll see how much money, time, gas, hotels, entry fees and days off from work you lose having "your grandmother" handle your dog. Good luck to you!

Some of us enjoy handling and showcasing our nice dogs and it is not just about the money.

must be a pro handler looking for business....

If that was me and that was my dog, I would be on the phone with AKC. I would have first called the AKC rep to the ring, then filed a complaint, then called AKC on this judge. Believe it or not, they will follow up on this and they will contact the judge and the judge will have to explain his or her actions. I have seen it done, in another breed. This is BS and have been on the website of the kennel that owns this dog and that judge should be black balled from ever judging labradors. Sorry, nice dog and there should be no reason that ribbon would be withheld!!! JMO!!

Actually, I do enjoy showing and handling my dogs - in obedience, rally and in hunt tests. I have put half of the breed points on my dogs myself out of Bred By. However, I am not a good handler (and have been told this by many breeder friends as well as a few judges) and really do not enjoy the politics of showing in breed, so when I enter my dogs now, I will often send them with a handler. The quality of my dog has no correlation to my ability to handle. And yes, it has been less expensive in the long run since I would not spend any money for someone to handle a dog that is not competitive.

I have nothing against owner handlers and nothing against pro handlers. Who is handling the dog has nothing to do with the quality of the dog. However, poor handlers often showcase some of the worst features of a dog and fail to showcase the good points. If that is what they are going to show a judge, then it is no wonder the dog is overlooked. I have done it myself. That said, it is the judges who are responsible for the placements, and I have seen poor judging at both all breed and specialty shows - since that is the way it goes sometimes, I just make note not to show to those judges again and move on.

Perhaps in the judge's opinion both dogs were worthless. Would you be so quick to call the AKC rep on a Breeder judge?

Writing to the judge is a very tricky and sensitive situation to be honest. I *think* he can turn over your letter to AKC and then you are contacted that way. As a judge you are told if you receive anything you feel is inappropriate or threatening you simply turn it in. AKC then takes matters in their hands and can send you a reprimand.

The best way to take care of it is write a letter to AKC for it to be put in his file. I would even potentially include photos of the dogs (with owners permissions etc). Write a letter to your rep as well. Document it without writing directly to the judge himself.

Better to go through the correct channels than to piss him off and get you in more trouble than you intended to get in....remember to be just use common sense..be tactful...use the right chain of command and rise above to be the bigger person!

I agree the judge should have never given out first place ribbons if he was going to withhold WD/RWD. I also will not enter under this judge if I see he is judging at shows I usually attend. BTW, I saw the above mentioned puppy this weekend and he is very nice (and placed/won his class) at shows that were majors. I have also seen the open dog -- hard to believe a judge would find him unworthy of WD or RWD.

I feel terrible this happened to both dogs and owners. :-(

The link I see is the main link to Onofrio unless I missed it. Is there a link that takes you to the page of that show by any chance please? I am not asking anyone to disclose the name of the judge. I would also like to be sure I don't show under that particular judge, especially after the most recent posters unbiased comments. TIA.

http://www.onofrio.com/execpgm/wbsrbred?wtsrk1=HAKC1441461RLB